Buddist on Catholic answers?

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Jesus died for me.
So how come lots of Christians assure me that Jesus is alive today? Are they wrong?
budhha lived only for himself.
As I advised earlier, you need to learn more about Buddhism. Immediately after his enlightenment, the Buddha wondered whether to retire immediately into nirvana and not to spend the rest of his life, 45 years, teaching others. The Buddha rejected the temptation and decided to teach others out of compassion for them:

Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma’s invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born and growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, the Blessed One saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.

– Ayacana sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 6.1

rossum
 
surely rossum is not as ignorant as his last post indicates?

rossum has never heard of Jesus Christ rising Himself from the dead after three days in the tomb?

and yet rossum has the temerity to suggest i learn more about buddhism (the teachings of a man who learned to make himself indifferent to the joys and troubles of reality?
 
surely rossum is not as ignorant as his last post indicates?

rossum has never heard of Jesus Christ rising Himself from the dead after three days in the tomb?

and yet rossum has the temerity to suggest i learn more about buddhism (the teachings of a man who learned to make himself indifferent to the joys and troubles of reality?
The claim that Jesus is still alive shows that He failed to enlighten Himself. Only the unenlightened live again after they die. Why should I follow an unenlightened Bodhisattva like Jesus when I can follow a fully enlightened Buddha like Gotama?

It is an error to assume that all Christian ideas carry over into Buddhism. In Buddhism eternal life is eternal suffering. To live again after dying is a sign of failure, not of success. When the Buddha died he did not live again; that is the mark of his success.

rossum
 
The claim that Jesus is still alive shows that He failed to enlighten Himself. Only the unenlightened live again after they die. Why should I follow an unenlightened Bodhisattva like Jesus when I can follow a fully enlightened Buddha like Gotama?

It is an error to assume that all Christian ideas carry over into Buddhism. In Buddhism eternal life is eternal suffering. To live again after dying is a sign of failure, not of success. When the Buddha died he did not live again; that is the mark of his success.

rossum
The disconnect is that to us, “nothingness” is damnation. Our faith teaches an eternal connection to the Father, versus an end in oblivion and permanent death. Buddhism teaches nothing of an afterlife, just life after life after life followed, you hope, by oblivion. An end to consciousness. The answer to the “Mu” koan is “nothing.” Christianity offers an escape from “nothing.” you’re not “nothing.” you DO matter. This life IS quite real, what you do in it DOES matter, and YOU have the potential for eternal life.
Have you ever read Venerable Thich Nhat Hahn’s “Peace is Every Step,” or, more poignantly, his “*Coming Home: Christ and Buddha as Brothers?” *Or any of the writings of the great Thomas Merton?
I strongly suggest that before you try to engage theologically with Christians you do so.
 
Hi br

I must say my statement indicating that the union with God RESULTS in manifest atrocities was incorrectly worded.

My point is that when I proposed that the underlying purpose of all religions is to bring about a betterment to the world, human beings and all created things, Steve responded by say that no, Catholicisms purpose is to bring about a union between God and man, a reparation of a lost relationship. This is done through participation in the Sacraments.

Now, my question is, what is the point in all this? It begs a foundation of salvation which can be achieved by doing nothing.
By this logic, salvation is attained by partaking of the Sacraments, and it can be deduced therefore that this union, this salvation, and fulfilling our purpose as human beings can be attained even if we were to conduct atrocities.

I could very easily partake in the Sacraments on Sunday, and by Monday have sexually abused an unsuspecting victim, yet feel fine by the fact that I still have this union with God and my salvation is assured.

Do you follow that logic at all?
I do, and here’s where I see it fall: the physical action of taking communion is not the end-all, be-all of the sacrament: there must be a genuine heart and soul involvement. When we pray for forgiveness of our sins, and confess that we are sinners, it MUST be genuine; not just words. When we approach the host and bow, it MUST be genuine, not feigned. When we return to the pew and bless ourselves to pray, it MUST be from the heart. Sure… anyone in the world could go through the motions as you suggest. But that’s all they’re doing, and the Bible is pretty clear that at this point, they’ve participated unworthily. The sacrament, therefore, to them, is nothing.
 
Why should I follow an unenlightened Bodhisattva like Jesus when I can follow a fully enlightened Buddha like Gotama?.
Hi Rossum,

When you say “enlightened” do you mean knowing the difference between right and wrong? Or avoiding suffering and finding joy?

If the latter, aren’t you assuming that those things are things that are right and wrong for us?

But if so, you have to have a way to judge why those actions (avoiding & seeking) are right and wrong, meaning you have principles to judge why these are right and wrong. (So it comes down to right and wrong anyway)

But then you would need principles to judge why those principles are themselves right.

…And so on. To either:
  1. an infinite chain/hierarchy of sets of principles by which to judge, or.
  2. a circlar reference of one set of principles to another, or
  3. or to an ult\mate source of right and wrong, a lawgiver, that is, to God.
What I mean to say is that life is senseless (no right/wrong or morality) without a supreme lawgiver.

How does Buddhism view this? At what point would Buddhism contradict this, if is does?

BTW we believe that Jesus was God in human form. He was enlightenment personified.

In Jesus, God added to His Own Divine Uncreated Spiritual Nature, a human material body and human spiritual soul. Jesus’s dying was a separation of his human body from its soul. After experiencing that death for our sake, He again combined his body and soul to bring human life back to that body.

peace
steve
 
The disconnect is that to us, “nothingness” is damnation.
Nirvana is not “nothingness”. The Buddha was in nirvana for the last 45 years of his life on earth; that was not “nothingness”.
Our faith teaches an eternal connection to the Father, versus an end in oblivion and permanent death.
Eternal life is eternal suffering:

[The Buddha said] “What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”

“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

“This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time — crying and weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”

– Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3
Buddhism teaches nothing of an afterlife, just life after life after life followed, you hope, by oblivion. An end to consciousness. The answer to the “Mu” koan is “nothing.”
Nirvana is not nothing or oblivion.

[The Buddha said] “There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be possible from the born, become, made, conditioned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, escape from the born, become, made, conditioned is possible.”

– Udana 8.3

To begin to understand the Mu koan, you need to know the pronunciation of the relevant Chinese character at the time the koan originated in China. The current Jabamese pronunciation of that character is “Mu”. The old Chinese pronunciation was different:

Q: “Does a dog have Buddha nature?”

A: “Wu!”
This life IS quite real, what you do in it DOES matter, and YOU have the potential for eternal life.
Why would I be attracted by an offer of eternal suffering? Look at the Assu sutta I quoted above. One of the causes of suffering is “being separated from what is pleasing”. Christians, like Buddhists are told to love their neighbours as themselves. Can you be happy while those you love are being eternally tortured. Those victims are people you love as yourself. How can you be happy knowing that those you love are suffering eternally? The Christian afterlife, as described, is an eternity of suffering for everyone.
Have you ever read Venerable Thich Nhat Hahn’s “Peace is Every Step,” or, more poignantly, his “*Coming Home: Christ and Buddha as Brothers?” *Or any of the writings of the great Thomas Merton?
I have read some of both, though not the particular books you mention. Thomas Merton in particular is very impressive:

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya… everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

From: The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum
 
When you say “enlightened” do you mean knowing the difference between right and wrong? Or avoiding suffering and finding joy?
Neither. Morality is a prerequisite to enlightenment. Enlightenment itself is to attain the same insight that the Buddha did; see the quote from Thomas Merton in my previous post. The avoidance of suffering is the result of enlightenment.
But if so, you have to have a way to judge why those actions (avoiding & seeking) are right and wrong, meaning you have principles to judge why these are right and wrong. (So it comes down to right and wrong anyway)
Buddhists tend to see actions as “useful” and “not useful” rather than right and wrong. A tribe called the Kalamas were confused because lots of different preachers visited them, and each preacher said, “I am right and all the other preachers are wrong.” When the Buddha visited them, they asked him how to tell which, if any, of the many different preachers were actually correct.

[The Buddha said] “Yes, Kalamas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kalamas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor by the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea ‘this is our teacher’. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blameable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”

– Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, 3.65
But then you would need principles to judge why those principles are themselves right.
Which is what the Buddha provided, “By their fruits shall you know them.”
What I mean to say is that life is senseless (no right/wrong or morality) without a supreme lawgiver.
The Abrahamic religions tend to use the metaphor of criminal law to describe morality, as you do here. The Dharmic religions, Buddhism included, tend to use the metaphor of physical laws, like gravity. Rather than “You shall not …” the advice is, “If you do this then that will happen.” The Kalama sutta tells you to look at the results of action, “these things lead to benefit and happiness” or “these things lead to harm and ill”.

The law of gravity does not have a Supreme Lawgiver, it does not need one since the law is built into the universe. Similarly for morality/karma. Gravity does not say, “You shall not jump off tall buildings.” Gravity says, “If you jump off a tall building then …”
BTW we believe that Jesus was God in human form. He was enlightenment personified.
The Old Testament God is certainly not enlightened. Compare the number of people He kills, directly and indirectly, to the number of people the Buddha killed. Buddhist morality includes avoidance of killing and it applies to all gods, just as gravity applies to all kings. If Jesus is the same as the OT God then Jesus cannot be enlightened. Taken as separate from the OT God, then most Buddhists consider Jesus to be a Bodhisattva who is close to enlightenment and will Himself become a Buddha within a few lifetimes.
He again combined his body and soul to bring human life back to that body.
Soul is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. Buddhism explicitly denies the existence of any eternal soul:

“All the elements of reality are soulless.”
When one realises this by wisdom,
then one does not heed ill.
This is the Path of Purity.

– Dhammapada 20:7

rossum
 
Neither. Morality is a prerequisite to enlightenment. Enlightenment itself is to attain the same insight that the Buddha did; see the quote from Thomas Merton in my previous post. The avoidance of suffering is the result

rossum
Hi Rossum,

you’ve given me lot to chew on. I’ll give you a response when I finish making a provisional mapping of your assumptions about reality to mine.

peace,
steve
 
Just something to consider.

The realities of Christianity and Buddhism are the same.

Nothingness of self, means fullness of God, the Supreme Consciousness.

I haven’t read all of rossums thoughts above, but the evolution of spiritual reality from Buddhism to Christianity is startlingly obvious to me.
If anyone wishes to explore this I’m happy to 🙂
 
it is very sad that people go around teaching that the joy and love they give and receive in this world is something to avoid.
 
Buddhism deals with Eliminating Suffering. Similar to that which Jesus taught: Thought, Word, and Deed; which similarly in Buddhism is referred as the Mind, Speech, and the Body, and the purification practices which bring about such peace.

Catholicism deals with Salvation for Mankind.

So ultimately there can be no such thing as which one is better, each one solves a particular problem. It’s like Reading and Writing, each one has a function, but one is not better than the other.

I believe that Buddhism can compliment Catholicism, but can never replace it.
Since Buddhism like Science is Atheistic, but that is really besides the point, both Science and Buddhism do not use God in their functions and that does not make them bad. It would be better to ask which is better this monotheistic religion compared with that mono/polytheistic religion.
 
Tell us why your religion(in your opinion) is more logical than ours and the right one? Christian free to participate.
I am not a Buddhist (you need an ‘h’ in your spelling), but I just want to comment that no religion (at least among the major ones) is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Different religions are appropriate for different people depending on their mentality/temperament as well as their state of spiritual development.

Among the major religions:

Overall, I think Christianity is best for most average human beings.

Buddhism is good for highly educated people, it is just too intellectual and abstract/complex for most people who don’t want to think too much.

Islam is best for less educated people - its strictness and simplicity (only One God!) gives their lives structure and stability.

Hinduism is too tied to a specific culture (India) and is appropriate only if you are born in that culture.
 
openmind77,

i see it a little differently. what you expressed about all religions being appropriate to someone based upon that person’s situation in life is what i call relativism.

in effect, although this may be difficult to see or understand, it is saying that the only universal truth, the only absolute reality, is the concept expressed like this. whether or not a religion corresponds to absolute reality is unimportant so long as it responds to the subjective reality of the individual human being.

such a view of absolute reality leaves many questions concerning the human condition unanswered and that is why i see it differently from the way you expressed it. to me, it is not a very beneficial or even useful concept of absolute truth. since i believe that every human being can understand, experience and embrace absolute truth and that the fullness of absolute truth can provide all of the answers to the questions human beings could have about existence, telling human beings that their subjective experience is the absolute truth for each of them is the same as telling them their questions either have no answers or are meaningless in an absolute sense.
 
openmind77,

i see it a little differently. what you expressed about all religions being appropriate to someone based upon that person’s situation in life is what i call relativism.

in effect, although this may be difficult to see or understand, it is saying that the only universal truth, the only absolute reality, is the concept expressed like this. whether or not a religion corresponds to absolute reality is unimportant so long as it responds to the subjective reality of the individual human being.

such a view of absolute reality leaves many questions concerning the human condition unanswered and that is why i see it differently from the way you expressed it. to me, it is not a very beneficial or even useful concept of absolute truth. since i believe that every human being can understand, experience and embrace absolute truth and that the fullness of absolute truth can provide all of the answers to the questions human beings could have about existence, telling human beings that their subjective experience is the absolute truth for each of them is the same as telling them their questions either have no answers or are meaningless in an absolute sense.
You may call it relativism or something else, but the fact is that no single religion has a monopoly on the ‘absolute truth’.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the one that corresponds to ‘absolute reality’ whatever that is, you are in for a very rude shock when the Christ Returns (which will happen pretty soon) and explains how many things the Church got wrong.

I personally think Buddhist doctrines are closer to truth than many Christian ones, but there is no need to take my word for it, in a few years, we will all know for sure.

But each of these major religions has enough truth in them that it is sufficient for the follower’s spiritual development in this life. As I said before, some religions are better for different people depending on their temperament as well as current spiritual state.
 
is sin real?

does sin have negative consequences, both temporal and eternal consequences?

if the answer is yes to those two questions, how do religions, other than RC deal with sin and its negative consequences?

if the answer is no, how does one not conclude that murder, theft, false accuasations and the rest are actions that one should indulge if one can do so without human’s laws catching up with you?

is that what non-RC religions are in fact teaching even if they disguise it behind flowery words and false statements?
 
is sin real?

does sin have negative consequences, both temporal and eternal consequences?

if the answer is yes to those two questions, how do religions, other than RC deal with sin and its negative consequences?

if the answer is no, how does one not conclude that murder, theft, false accusations and the rest are actions that one should indulge if one can do so without human’s laws catching up with you?

is that what non-RC religions are in fact teaching even if they disguise it behind flowery words and false statements?
Yes sin has consequences, sometimes it may be temporary and at other times it catches up with you. And some people are just Sociopaths, like an animal they have no remorse, for such their souls are damned, but I often wondered if an Exorcism might cure them. Of course Catholicism doesn’t have all the answers, we do have our Beliefs, so we can only say so much, God knows the rest.

How do other religions deal with sin? Well, Buddhists just strive to be better at what they do if they are knowledgeable about Buddhism, as some are just born into it and call themselves Buddhist and feel that if they just pray to Buddha or go to a Temple that they can absolve themselves of their sins/bad karma. Most Religions do some form of Penance. Islam says they practice forgiving, but what ya see most of the time is usually some form of violence against the sinner. (I can provided extensive evidence of Islam’s methods for sinners if so inquired.)
 
is sin real?

does sin have negative consequences, both temporal and eternal consequences?

if the answer is yes to those two questions, how do religions, other than RC deal with sin and its negative consequences?

if the answer is no, how does one not conclude that murder, theft, false accuasations and the rest are actions that one should indulge if one can do so without human’s laws catching up with you?

is that what non-RC religions are in fact teaching even if they disguise it behind flowery words and false statements?
All religions have a concept what conduct is intrinsically wrong or right.

The Buddhist concept of ahimsa (total non-violence) is morally far superior than just ‘Thou shalt not murder’.

All religions state that such actions like killing, have negative consequences - whether the consequences are ‘eternal’ or not is debatable.

However, I think Catholics are too obsessed with the idea of sin (as the Pope suggested a few months back, regarding certain kinds of sin). Salvation depends far more on your ‘good works’ and attitude towards the poor and unfortunate, but ultimately also on your complete spiritual development (some may call it self realization or enlightenment).

As I said, the Christ will be here soon (2-3 years), we will find out the ‘absolute’ truth to the extent we are ready for it. Just be patient.
 
if sin is an offense against God, then it must be forgiven before any union with God is possible.
 
As I said, the Christ will be here soon (2-3 years), we will find out the ‘absolute’ truth to the extent we are ready for it. Just be patient.
Please tell us more about this.

Specifically, what will happen in this return?
 
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