Buddist on Catholic answers?

[Veedar]

Jesus ate meat.

Jessu never sinned.

Sure. The Buddha did too. Even Jains did, which suggests that it was was almost impossible to live a veggie diet at the time, without suffering from malnutrition, atleast if you were a traveling religious teacher who was given food by others, such as both Jesus and the Buddha were.

Now today it is very, very easy. So why in God’s name would we want animals to suffer just because we may like the taste of meat?

Furthermore, my answer wasn’t specifically about vegetarianism. It was as an answer to the claim that Buddhism is selfish, and that it would be “ok” to tell someone to kill a living being. This is a distorted understanding of Buddhism. My point was that buying meat at the grocery store and actually murdering an innocent animal in cold blood, will influence the mind in different ways. The consequence of the latter will cause far more harm to conscience than the former. This is NOT to say that it is ok to be part of the system that needlessly perpetuates animal suffering.

 

[eddie_too]

veedar,

thanks for the clarification.

 

[ProdigalSun]

If you throw a stone straight up in the air it will come down and hit you on the head. If you don’t want to be hit on the head by falling stones, then don’t throw stones straight up in the air. All your actions have effects. If you don’t want the effects then don’t do the actions.
Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2
rossum

If you throw a stone in the air and don’t want to get hit in the head just step off to the side and it will miss you on the way down.

      - Me Feb 25, 2014

I like to throw stones in the air it is fun to watch them enter a still pound and make as little of of splash as possible. It is a interesting technique.
If what yuo wrote is true there about that if you speak or act with a pure heart than happiness will follow you then why do you say that living in this world is like hell. It should be happiness if you are living with a pure heart and mind.

Cheers:thumbsup:

 

[ProdigalSun]

We need to avoid them because they have negative repurcussions in this life, or the next. When you’re reborn, it’s certainly not “I get another fun life of killing and sensual misconduct!”, it’s that you get yet another life of suffering and misery. That’s all life is: You are born, you constantly desire things, you grow old/sick, and die. And the process repeats. If repeating that sounds fun, you must be out of your mind! But Buddhism teaches how to quell those human desires and focus on what’s really important: freeing yourself from samsara and suffering.

But since reincarnation is not real and we only live once in this world and for an etrenity in the next it really is about more than just “are born, you constantly desire things, you grow old/sick, and die.” It is certainly more than that to me and I Love my life because it is a gift from God.

Cheers:thumbsup:

 

[ProdigalSun]

Yes, the RCC also taught that there was nothing immoral in keeping slaves. And it taught that slaves should submit to their masters. What does it teach now? The RCC taught that there should not be religious freedom, because nobody has a God given right to believe a lie. What does it teach now? The RCC taught that it was a good thing to execute heretics so they could not lead other souls to hell with their false teaching. What does the RCC teach now?

Doctrines develop, thankfully, and when it comes to animal rights, our church still has a loooong way to go.

Altough this is for another thread your assupmtions here are most certainly wrong. You need to study these Ideas of a little more indepth.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Sure. The Buddha did too. Even Jains did, which suggests that it was was almost impossible to live a veggie diet at the time, without suffering from malnutrition, atleast if you were a traveling religious teacher who was given food by others, such as both Jesus and the Buddha were.

Now today it is very, very easy. So why in God’s name would we want animals to suffer just because we may like the taste of meat?

Furthermore, my answer wasn’t specifically about vegetarianism. It was as an answer to the claim that Buddhism is selfish, and that it would be “ok” to tell someone to kill a living being. This is a distorted understanding of Buddhism. My point was that buying meat at the grocery store and actually murdering an innocent animal in cold blood, will influence the mind in different ways. The consequence of the latter will cause far more harm to conscience than the former. This is NOT to say that it is ok to be part of the system that needlessly perpetuates animal suffering.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with killling animals for food and eating them. Show me where this has been condemed by God in anyway shape or form>

 

[Grym]

But since reincarnation is not real …

Ah but can you prove that? I mean logically?

… and we only live once in this world and for an etrenity in the next…

Ah but can you prove that? . Sounds pretty illogical to me, more like a James Bond movie. You only live twice? Eer btw does this mean* you do belive* in reincarnation?

… it really is about more than just “are born, you constantly desire things, you grow old/sick, and die.” It is certainly more than that to me and I Love my life because it is a gift from God.

Cheers:thumbsup:

And guess what. You are gonna get sick, grow old and die. Congrats for having such a generous God and just remember to say “Thank You God” next time you catch the flu.

.

I mean whats logcal about that? Why not just skip to the part where you guys live forever in Eden?

(Btw how about your Ma and Pa? Logically speaking I would say they had *something *to do with you being alive too?)

Cheers
Victor

 

[Grym]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with killling animals for food and eating them. Show me where this has been condemed by God in anyway shape or form>

Well because Christianity does not respect the animal life and nature the way Buddhism does is one of the reasons Buddhism is more logical than Christianity.

Just look at what we are doing to the planet and animal farming is one of the big reasons the planet is going downhill.

/Victor

 

[Grym]

are born, you constantly desire things, you grow old/sick, and die." It is certainly more than that to me and I Love my life because it is a gift from God.

Cheers:thumbsup:

I forgot to mention. It is not something made up that people in genereal spend more time longing for things they want rather than enjoying the things they have. Is it?

/Victor

 

[Veedar]

deleted double post.

 

[Veedar]

Altough this is for another thread your assupmtions here are most certainly wrong. You need to study these Ideas of a little more indepth.

Right, if I disagree with your views, I am ignorant or my knowledge is shallow. Well, as you say, this is not the thread to discuss slavery, extermination of heretics, or religious freedom.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with killling animals for food and eating them. Show me where this has been condemed by God in anyway shape or form.

I don’t know where God says anything. Any scripture text is merely someone who claims to speak on God’s behalf. I doubt they took dictation, but that is also a matter that could be the subject of another thread.

As for there being nothing “wrong” with killing animals. There are a couple points I can mention:

Empathy and compassion dictates that we should care about other living beings who experience suffering. Of course, if you lack empathy for cats, dogs, chickens, cows etc… there is absolutely nothing I can say that will change your mind. I guess Francis of Assisi who bought a lamb destined for slaughter, in order to save its life, was merely a sentimental fool…

The great “chain of being” where non-human animals are devalued when compared to humans, does not merely lead to all kinds of suffering for animals. It also leads to human suffering, because humans routinely dehumanize others in order to be able to kill or enslave them guilt free.

It happened with slavery throughout the middle ages and in the US: slaves were “less than human” and lacked a soul etc… Since they were seen as lower-than-human animals, it was ok to enslave or kill them. I happened during the second world war: Nazis literally conviced themselves that Jews were ratlike creatures who looked human, but were really not (they had human “accidents”, but the “substance” was “rat”, to use Catholic terminology). It happened during Rwanda. It happens with fetuses.

I recommend the following book which deals with the issue in depth:

amazon.com/Less-Than-Human-Enslave-Exterminate/dp/1250003830/

If we valued all sentient beings, dehumanization wouldn’t work. So I guess until we humans learn to value all living beings, capable of suffering, we will still continue killing and torturing each other.

I haven’t even begun addressing enviromental and human health concerns, and I won’t. You are not going to change your mind anyway. Since you a) Enjoy meat and animal products and b) Your favorite holy text scratches your itchy ears, telling you what you want to hear. Never mind that doctrinal development happens both within the Bible and throughout Church history.

At any rate, you are still responsible for what you choose to believe, and what authorities you choose to listen to.

 

[rossum]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with killling animals for food and eating them. Show me where this has been condemed by God in anyway shape or form>

Are you really so lacking in knowledge of your own scriptures?

But whatsoever cheweth indeed the cud, and hath a hoof, but divideth it not, as the camel, and others, that you shall not eat, but shall reckon it among the unclean. The cherogrillus which cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof, is unclean. The hare also: for that too cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof. And the swine, which, though it divideth the hoof, cheweth not the cud. The flesh of these you shall not eat, nor shall you touch their carcasses, because they are unclean to you.

– Leviticus 11:4-8

That is a “way shape or form” in which God has condemned eating animals.

rossum

 

[Veedar]

Are you really so lacking in knowledge of your own scriptures?

But whatsoever cheweth indeed the cud, and hath a hoof, but divideth it not, as the camel, and others, that you shall not eat, but shall reckon it among the unclean. The cherogrillus which cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof, is unclean. The hare also: for that too cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof. And the swine, which, though it divideth the hoof, cheweth not the cud. The flesh of these you shall not eat, nor shall you touch their carcasses, because they are unclean to you.

– Leviticus 11:4-8

That is a “way shape or form” in which God has condemned eating animals.

rossum

Thank you for mentioning that. Here are a few other scriptures from the Bible:

Hosea 2:18
In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety.

Psalm 36:6
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains,
your judgments are like the great deep;
you save humans and animals alike, O Lord.

Jonah 3:7-9;4:11
Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: “By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.(…) And should I not be concerned about Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also many animals?”

Proverbs 12:10
The righteous know the needs of their animals,
but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

 

[eddie_too]

God provided abraham with a ram to sacrifice to God.

Jesus ate meat.

if a person cannot believe in the RCC because it does NOT prohibit the killing of or eating of animals, they have a serious disconnect with Jesus Christ.

 

[Veedar]

God provided abraham with a ram to sacrifice to God.

Jesus ate meat.

if a person cannot believe in the RCC because it does NOT prohibit the killing of or eating of animals, they have a serious disconnect with Jesus Christ.

I think the whole point of the Abraham story is that God does not accept human sacrifice. Unfortunately this was practiced in OT-times. However, as long as you stay within your comfortable echo-chambers where your beliefs are never challenged, you will never know the evidence that Israel sacrificed humans, and that and prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel were the first to fight against it, substituting it with animal sacrifice. So be it.

I never answered the original post to speak of veganism in the first place. I used it as an example to explain how murdering a living being with your bare hands impacts your mind differently than buying meat at the grocery store. I suffer from no illusions that arguing with you here will change your mind. If you can watch a movie like Earthlings and not be affected, there is nothing I can do to help you.

 

[eddie_too]

if Jesus ate meat, meat is fine with me.

the idea that it is ok to eat animals killed by someone else is a bit too sophist for me.

animals are put here for man.

animals that do not serve man have lived lesser lives than those that provide man with food and entertainment.

now i understand that ecologically speaking all animals provide a food chain for other animals and ultimately for mankind. so, in that sense every animal has a purpose.

it is far more merciful to kill and animal with a bullet than to leave it to die from old age, disease or the attack of another animal. the animal killed deliberately by man suffers far less than the animal left to die of disease or old age.

this i not news. people often humanely kill their sick and aged pets. they do that because putting an animal out of its misery is considered a good thing.

 

[Veedar]

if Jesus ate meat, meat is fine with me.

the idea that it is ok to eat animals killed by someone else is a bit too sophist for me.

animals are put here for man.

animals that do not serve man have lived lesser lives than those that provide man with food and entertainment.

now i understand that ecologically speaking all animals provide a food chain for other animals and ultimately for mankind. so, in that sense every animal has a purpose.

it is far more merciful to kill and animal with a bullet than to leave it to die from old age, disease or the attack of another animal. the animal killed deliberately by man suffers far less than the animal left to die of disease or old age.

this i not news. people often humanely kill their sick and aged pets. they do that because putting an animal out of its misery is considered a good thing.

You didn’t watch the film, since you posted to soon to have watched it. Like I said, there is nothing I can do for you. I cannot create empathy within you. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[eddie_too]

i do not need you to do anything for me. Jesus has already done for me all that needs doing.

i also reject your presumption of judgment against me. only God can and will judge me.

you have a great tendency toward sophistry, not to mention judgment.

you cannot say eating meat is a sin without saying Jesus sinned.

you cannot say killing an animal is a sin without saying God sinned when He ordered moses to kill a lamb and use its blood to identify the faithful israelites captive in egypt before their departure so that the angel of death would passover their homes.

you ignore these facts and prefer to employ a tactic of assigning guilt trying to make others feel bad that they do not accept your unreasonable and unsupportable arguments.

you never distinguish between the use of animals and the deliberate torture of animals.

 

[Veedar]

i do not need you to do anything for me. Jesus has already done for me all that needs doing.

i also reject your presumption of judgment against me. only God can and will judge me.

you have a great tendency toward sophistry, not to mention judgment.

you cannot say eating meat is a sin without saying Jesus sinned.

you cannot say killing an animal is a sin without saying God sinned when He ordered moses to kill a lamb and use its blood to identify the faithful israelites captive in egypt before their departure so that the angel of death would passover their homes.

you ignore these facts and prefer to employ a tactic of assigning guilt trying to make others feel bad that they do not accept your unreasonable and unsupportable arguments.

you never distinguish between the use of animals and the deliberate torture of animals.

It is not a matter of judgement and guilt. It is a matter of compassion and empathy.

I don’t think God ordered anyone to slaughter lambs, day in and day out in the temples. I don’t think God murdered innocent little babies all over Egypt to show his power over Pharaoh (whos heart he is said to have hardened in the first place). This story in Exodus is not literal history (thankfully).

Animal sacrifice is history. People primitively thought that their gods were angry with them when disasters of nature happened, when crops failed, etc… And so they felt they had to sacrifice their animals (and sometimes humans) to the gods to appease them. When the gods could smell the “pleasing odor” of the burnt sacrifice, they would let go of their anger. It is very understandable that people thought that way, in that time and place. They knew nothing of science or why natural disasters happen. It would also have been very difficult, perhaps impossible, for them to survive without eating meat.

I believe the picture painted of God in the OT is in part man made, created by our fears and anxieties, and parts stem from genuine spiritual experiences. The typical american bible fundamentalism, which unfortunately has also infected the Catholic Church in the US, is out of sync with science, history, archeology and more importantly, with good ethics. I have met many a fundamentalist, catholic and non-catholic, who will defend the genocides that God allegedly ordered in the Bible (of course God didn’t!). It is also argued that slavery and the death penalty cannot be “intrinscially wrong” (whatever that actually means), because God commanded it in the OT.

The kind of cruelty which is believed to be sanctioned by God is the most persistent. **There seems to be no limit to the kind of suffering and death people are willing to inflict upon other living beings once they believe they have God on their side. **

This is why (those) Christians who argued against slavery had such a hard time in the US. People pointed to passages in the Bible, both the Old and New testament where slavery was condoned. Jesus appearently didn’t care about it either. But slavery failed. And I have the good hope that the pervasive speciecism of our time will fail as well. Only time will tell. As for the Church, it will have another stain of history on its conscience. I wish it for once could be ahead of its time, but it doesn’t seem very likely.

 

[eddie_too]

the only intrinsic value animals possess is the value that they have for human life.

animals exist for the benefit of human beings.

animals have no immortal soul.

the only rights animals have are those given them by man.

i believe it is wrong to make animals suffer solely or needlessly for some perverted, personal gratification.

i also believe animals suffer far less when humanely destroyed than when they are left to die from sickness and old age, or even at the hands of another animal.

however, i do not attribute to animals any of the rights or elements that make man different from animals.

animals belong to a lesser and only temporal realm.

it is a false teaching to advocate that animals deserve to be treated like God demands humans treat each other.

animals have neither intellect nor free will.

i oppose anyone who tries to equate animals with humans.