Buddist on Catholic answers?

[daler]

Example: I have grown up in a Buddhist environment…

I have tried very hard to understand the motivations of Atheists…

Hmm I cannot speak for all Buddhists of course maybe there are those that indeed think that Nibbana is the same thing as the Source. The Mahayana bodisattva ideal is probably a lot closer to your viewpoint than my theravada standpoint.

I am actually one of those that view nibbana as a form of personal salvation. My aim in that department is egotistic and not altruistic as the Mahayanans.

But I also have children and that makes me want to leave behind a place that is better for them. Again a selfish motive. But I do not claim sainthood.

For me Nibbana is the opposite of Samsara. Yet for now I am a part of this world and I view it as my duty to work for its betterment to the best of my ability until I can finally rest in the embrace of nibbana. I guess that somewhere along the way I will have to put that aside but not yet I think. That is the distinction I am pointing out. The Path to God is embedded in the Dhamma but it is not the final destination of the Dhamma.

Also as the Love for the beings of this world increases the discrimination of my needs for my sons and for the population in large decreases.

A catholic asked me If it is not so that a Buddhist must give up attachment for his family? I said that it is not because the love for the family decreases but because the love of all the beings in the world increases until there is no distinction any more.

Have you read the sutta of loving kindness?
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.piya.html

I think you will like it.

Victor,
. That is a very good sutta. Much of the essence of Buddhism is contained in it, and why there is such a strong attraction to the teachings of Buddha. I find it interesting that you were raised in a Buddhist environment, which I would deem very healthy. There was a lot of turmoil and stress in my home, but also a lot of good things we did as a family. My grandmother’s presence was very helpful and calming. She was descended from a long line of Quakers, and it was apparent in her.

. Some atheists I’ve known have a good moral compass and I’ve concluded that many of them have arrived at their position as a result of the hypocrisy of the church, such that they’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater. That is, had “people of faith” truly followed the teachings and lived exemplary lives there would have been no reason to go tangent to it. Also, the absurdity of literal interpretations in a scientific era of religious stories predisposes thinking people to regard much of what “religious” people believe as nonsense, which is sad, because at the base of it we need religion, in whatever form.

. I would think that your vision of Nibbana encompasses right action and living up to your responsibilities both to your family and society as a whole and in that sense, are perhaps inseparable. The Christian concept of “eternal rest” as a reward may in fact be quite similar in the end, although not described as such.

. I would definitely agree that Nibbana and Samsara are like order and chaos, and that the way out of chaos is order, which requires discipline, or a Right Path, as well as detachment being central to achieving a state of eternal happiness. We are born into this world “wanting” everything, and that is the natural order of things for a time, as we actually need the things of this world for a time. At some point, however, this world is receding from us and we must no longer cling to it or we will suffer continuously until we let it go, at which point we enter another higher stage of being. It is like a chick which must give up the shell which housed and protected it for a term.

. It occurred to me last nite to respond to something you said earlier concerning Gautama being merely a human who discovered the path to enlightenment and I wanted to share something from Baha’u’llah which might be parallel.

. " I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

.

 

[Grym]

. I would think that your vision of Nibbana encompasses right action and living up to your responsibilities both to your family and society as a whole and in that sense, are perhaps inseparable. The Christian concept of “eternal rest” as a reward may in fact be quite similar in the end, although not described as such.

No not really Dale. That is what I am trying to tell you. Nibbana does not encompass living up to my responsibilities to family or society. Nibbana is beyond right action and wrong action and Merit derived therefrom (great forty sutta I mentioned before). Nibbana is removed from light and dark It has no attributes it is the unmade, the unconceived. Remember? And even if eternal rest does sound nibbanish. It conveys nihilism. That is another trait that is not nibbana.

The other path described in the great forty sutta, the one for layfolk encompass right action and responsibility to family and society and yield Merit and further encompasses faith in god/s and heaven.

Here is one sutta describing how an householder should lead a good life. There are many others but this one is famous. accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

And here is the one about the sage. The opposite of the householder.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.12.than.html

Danger is born from intimacy,[1] society gives birth to dust.[2] Free from intimacy, free from society: such is the vision of the sage.

. It occurred to me last nite to respond to something you said earlier concerning Gautama being merely a human who discovered the path to enlightenment and I wanted to share something from Baha’u’llah which might be parallel.

. " I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

.

Again no. God did not bestow the knowledge of nibbana to Gautama. See these small differences cannot as you say be overlooked. The parallel is there only superficially and not in essence. The Vision of the Prophets is of this world (Samsara) Nibbana is something else.

Thank you for trying to understand Dale.

Again this is my understanding of the Dhamma. Others might disagree.

Kindley
Victor

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. That is a very good sutta. Much of the essence of Buddhism is contained in it, and why there is such a strong attraction to the teachings of Buddha.
.

This is the essence of the Dhamma

accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

In the words of the Buddha: “He who sees dependent arising sees the Dhamma; he who sees the Dhamma sees dependent arising.”

from here accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html

It has a wiki page!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nid%C4%81nas

Gnite Dale
Victor

 

[daler]

Nibbana is removed from light and dark It has no attributes it is the unmade, the unconceived. Remember? And even if eternal rest does sound nibbanish. It conveys nihilism. That is another trait that is not nibbana.

The other path described in the great forty sutta, the one for layfolk encompass right action and responsibility to family and society and yield Merit and further encompasses faith in god/s and heaven.

Here is one sutta describing how an householder should lead a good life. There are many others but this one is famous. accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

And here is the one about the sage. The opposite of the householder.
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.12.than.html

Again no. God did not bestow the knowledge of nibbana to Gautama. See these small differences cannot as you say be overlooked. The parallel is there only superficially and not in essence. The Vision of the Prophets is of this world (Samsara) Nibbana is something else.

Thank you for trying to understand Dale.

Again this is my understanding of the Dhamma. Others might disagree.

Kindley
Victor

Victor,
. Again, I appreciate your patience and continued dialogue with me. While I had a strong attraction to Buddhism some forty years ago and carried with me on my journeys only one book: The Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha, I have forgotten much detail and did not have the opportunity to associate very long with many Buddhists, apart from my time spent in New York and Vermont, as I was raised in South Dakota in the midwestern farm country of the US.

. Something does come to mind, however, again with so much similarity jumping out at me. When the Native Americans use the Sacred Pipe, they face the four directions as well as the earth and sky in their prayers. Done in the traditional way, there is so much honor and reverence in the way that they do this, and it is clearly their link with Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit (God). They had their Messengers, or Buddhas, in my way of thinking, Who brought them their great teachings.

. Also, a prayer from the Bab comes to mind:

. “Immeasurably exalted art Thou, O Lord! Protect us from what lieth in front of us and behind us, above our heads, on our right, on our left, below our feet and every other side to which we are exposed. Verily, Thy protection over all things is unfailing.”

. Forgive me if I am slow to grasp fully the meaning of Nibbana, but my understanding is the ceasing of desires, refraining from attachment to the things of the temporal world, relinquishing the activities of thought and the ceaseless mental distractions - hence, extinguishing the candle of fascination with whatever this world may attempt to offer us. Maybe I am confused about the concept of nihilism in this regard. Again, I am reminded of my experience with the great void, which though absent even of light and sound, was an infinite “something” which I seemed to be entering. Yet not seeming to be ready for, I withdrew from, perhaps out of fear or unfamiliarity. I don’t know if this is what would be described as nibbana.

. While so much of the vision of the Prophets does indeed pertain to this world, even as the teachings of the Buddha, there is that mystical aspect where ultimately one leaves the grades of physical reality and all that can be described in words. There is a very profound book written to a Sufi, I believe, called the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, about the journey of the soul.

. It isn’t a long book, and you might peruse it if it interests you. Here is the first paragraph, followed by a link:

. “Praise be to God Who hath made being to come forth from nothingness; graven upon the tablet of man the secrets of preexistence; taught him from the mysteries of divine utterance that which he knew not; made him a Luminous Book unto those who believed and surrendered themselves; caused him to witness the creation of all things (Kullu Shay’) in this black and ruinous age, and to speak forth from the apex of eternity with a wondrous voice in the Excellent Temple to the end that every man may testify, in himself, by himself, in the station of the Manifestation of his Lord, that verily there is no God save Him, and that every man may thereby win his way to the summit of realities, until none shall contemplate anything whatsoever but that he shall see God therein.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/svfv-1.html

.

 

[Servant19]

No not really Dale. That is what I am trying to tell you. Nibbana does not encompass living up to my responsibilities to family or society. Nibbana is beyond right action and wrong action and Merit derived therefrom (great forty sutta I mentioned before). Nibbana is removed from light and dark It has no attributes it is the unmade, the unconceived. Remember? And even if eternal rest does sound nibbanish. It conveys nihilism. That is another trait that is not nibbana.

…
Victor

Hi Victor, you may find this passage from Baha’u’llah’s Writings of interest :

"For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, inasmuch as previous to his belief in God and his acceptance of His Manifestation, he had set his affections on the things of the world, such as attachment to earthly goods, to wife, children, food, drink, and the like, so much so that in the day-time and in the night season his one concern had been to amass riches and procure for himself the means of enjoyment and pleasure. Aside from these things, before his partaking of the reviving waters of faith, he had been so wedded to the traditions of his forefathers, and so passionately devoted to the observance of their customs and laws, that he would have preferred to suffer death rather than violate one letter of those superstitious forms and manners current amongst his people. Even as the people have cried: “Verily we found our fathers with a faith, and verily, in their footsteps we follow.”

These same people, though wrapt in all these veils of limitation, and despite the restraint of such observances, as soon as they drank the immortal draught of faith, from the cup of certitude, at the hand of the Manifestation of the All-Glorious, were so transformed that they would renounce for His sake their kindred, their substance, their lives, their beliefs, yea, all else save God! So overpowering was their yearning for God, so uplifting their transports of ecstatic delight, that the world and all that is therein faded before their eyes into nothingness. Have not this people exemplified the mysteries of “rebirth” and “return”? Hath it not been witnessed that these same people, ere they were endued with the new and wondrous grace of God, sought through innumerable devices, to ensure the protection of their lives against destruction? Would not a thorn fill them with terror, and the sight of a fox put them to flight? But once having been honoured with God’s supreme distinction, and having been vouchsafed His bountiful grace, they would, if they were able, have freely offered up ten thousand lives in His path! Nay, their blessed souls, contemptuous of the cage of their bodies, would yearn for deliverance. A single warrior of that host would face and fight a multitude! And yet, how could they, but for the transformation wrought in their lives, be capable of manifesting such deeds which are contrary to the ways of men and incompatible with their worldly desires?

It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could cause such spirit and behaviour, so utterly unlike their previous habits and manners, to be made manifest in the world of being. For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude, their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men!"

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-5.html.utf8?query=Wife,|children&action=highlight#pg155

.

 

[Grym]

At the time when Gotama wa born on the Indian subcontinent. There were a myriad of different religions and philosophies that competed and coexisted.

The Buddha refuted more or less all of them. Among his refutations is Eternilism and Nihilism. The Buddha did away with animal sacrifice as barbaric and rejected severe self mortification as a spiritual path. He also refuted the prevailing Karma concept and introduced his own.

But he also adopted many rituals and concepts that he turned into Buddhist use. Such as for example the karma concept that is not deterministic in Buddhism.

One of the existing rituals he adopted was the ritual to be “Born Again” to “be born into something new” to be “reborn already in this life”. Do you recognise the wording? .

He did this under criticism from his congregation at the time because they asked why he would confuse the word that way. Using the same word rebirth for two different things. So he explains that the ritual is soothing for “clansmen” (lay people) and that it gladdens them so why not give them something they recognise.

Another one is the protection from or reverence to the six quarters. In this case he fills in the meaning of each quarter so that the lay people should understand the ritual action.

Again these are rituals to apeace the Householder not the Sage.

Even though there are many similarities between Buddhism and many other faiths. And Buddhists will get along with and agree to many things in for example Baha’i faith. In my opinion the Goal will separate Buddhism from other paths.

To understand what nibbana is you must remember its traits. And properly discern what is Dhamma Path and not Dhamma Path and what is the Goal and what is not the Goal.

Without this discernment there can be no Dhamma Path. Obviously maybe?

So when you analyse what you might think is nibbana ask yourself. Is this thing emanating from God. In that case it is of this world(Samsara another word that probably does not come natural to you it means the world with men and gods and demons , ie all beings). And if it is of this world and it emanates from God it is not nibbana.

One reason that it is so difficult for you @Dale and @Servant19 to understand this is because your cup is full of what you would like buddhist nirvana to be. But do not be disappointed because actually all peoples cups are full of what they think nibbana is until they have had some hands on experience of what it is through proper cultivation.

Sincerely
Victor

 

[Holly3278]

Buddhism is not a religion. Buddhists neither deny nor confirm the existence of God.

My future is now!

Best wishes,
Padster

Actually, it is a religion:

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj′ən)*n.***1. ****a. ** Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
**b. ** A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

**2. ** The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
**3. ** A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
**4. ** A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

thefreedictionary.com/religion

As you can see, it meets the conditions in the 3rd and possibly 4th definitions.

 

[daler]

At the time when Gotama wa born on the Indian subcontinent. There were a myriad of different religions and philosophies that competed and coexisted.

The Buddha refuted more or less all of them. Among his refutations is Eternilism and Nihilism. The Buddha did away with animal sacrifice as barbaric and rejected severe self mortification as a spiritual path. He also refuted the prevailing Karma concept and introduced his own.

But he also adopted many rituals and concepts that he turned into Buddhist use. Such as for example the karma concept that is not deterministic in Buddhism.

One of the existing rituals he adopted was the ritual to be “Born Again” to “be born into something new” to be “reborn already in this life”. Do you recognise the wording? .

He did this under criticism from his congregation at the time because they asked why he would confuse the word that way. Using the same word rebirth for two different things. So he explains that the ritual is soothing for “clansmen” (lay people) and that it gladdens them so why not give them something they recognize.

Another one is the protection from or reverence to the six quarters. In this case he fills in the meaning of each quarter so that the lay people should understand the ritual action.

Again these are rituals to apeace the Householder not the Sage.

Even though there are many similarities between Buddhism and many other faiths. And Buddhists will get along with and agree to many things in for example Baha’i faith. In my opinion the Goal will separate Buddhism from other paths.

To understand what nibbana is you must remember its traits. And properly discern what is Dhamma Path and not Dhamma Path and what is the Goal and what is not the Goal.

Without this discernment there can be no Dhamma Path. Obviously maybe?

So when you analyze what you might think is nibbana ask yourself. Is this thing emanating from God. In that case it is of this world(Samsara another word that probably does not come natural to you it means the world with men and gods and demons , ie all beings). And if it is of this world and it emanates from God it is not nibbana.

One reason that it is so difficult for you @Dale and @Servant19 to understand this is because your cup is full of what you would like buddhist nirvana to be. But do not be disappointed because actually all peoples cups are full of what they think nibbana is until they have had some hands on experience of what it is through proper cultivation.

Sincerely
Victor

Victor,
. i am drawing a rough parallel from the time of Abraham where even his father was a builder of idols, which Abraham destroyed, and suffered intense persecution as a result. Again, Moses destroyed the Golden Calf, Jesus kicked over the money changer’s tables, saying: “Not in My Father’s House!!!” and Muhammad, upon returning to Mecca entered the Ka’aba and destroyed over 300 idols. I mention this as a corollary to Lord Buddha dispelling the myths prevalent in the diverse sects of Hindu deity worship and the product of mere imagination and ancestral imitation.

. So I see Him as retuning the instruments of religion through abandonment of foolish rites, leaving behind the multiplication of “gods” illegitimately constructed by past priests who assumed the authority to invent them, and expounding principals of the Middle Way. To me, this is yet another parallel to, say, Jesus Words: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe. Buddha taught the Middle Way and was Himself the Way, the Truth, and the Life, in my opinion.

. Please once again forgive my slowness to differentiate properly Nibbana. I have been on strong pain medication for about a week for severe back pain and it seems to affect my full concentration and my efforts to grasp such a deep matter. I am taking codeine presently and while part of my faculties are hopefully coherent, I feel like a syrup is slowing my ability to grasp fully your intent and receive from you as readily as should normally be. I will try to work on this as my mind allows.

. Yes, I can understand how many people come with full cups, yet hopefully with room when sincere efforts are made with genuine interest to gain a fuller knowledge of the actual belief systems being offered for consideration. My experience on the various Indian Reservations was to truly go in order to learn. Not just about “their religion”, but to learn about “my religion”, as well, For in the end, there is but one religion of which we all have had portions revealed to us which, though a few corners and swirls appear different, when we step far enough back, are enabled to see them all as pieces of a single great jigsaw puzzle, the understanding of which allows one to engage in the forming of the One Sacred Hoop of All Nations, which is a truly magnanimous and all encompassing realization of the Oneness of Humanity, that we may indeed recognize, in the words of Baha’u’llah, “Ye are all the leaves of one Tree, and the Fruits of One Branch. Regard ye not one another as strangers. The earth is one country, and mankind its citizens.”

Peace, Namaste, Mitakuye Oyasin, Allah’u’Abha

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. i am drawing a rough parallel from the time of Abraham where even his father was a builder of idols, which Abraham destroyed, and suffered intense persecution as a result. Again, Moses destroyed the Golden Calf, Jesus kicked over the money changer’s tables, saying: “Not in My Father’s House!!!” and Muhammad, upon returning to Mecca entered the Ka’aba and destroyed over 300 idols. I mention this as a corollary to Lord Buddha dispelling the myths prevalent in the diverse sects of Hindu deity worship and the product of mere imagination and ancestral imitation.

. So I see Him as retuning the instruments of religion through abandonment of foolish rites, leaving behind the multiplication of “gods” illegitimately constructed by past priests who assumed the authority to invent them, and expounding principals of the Middle Way. To me, this is yet another parallel to, say, Jesus Words: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe. Buddha taught the Middle Way and was Himself the Way, the Truth, and the Life, in my opinion.

. Please once again forgive my slowness to differentiate properly Nibbana. I have been on strong pain medication for about a week for severe back pain and it seems to affect my full concentration and my efforts to grasp such a deep matter. I am taking codeine presently and while part of my faculties are hopefully coherent, I feel like a syrup is slowing my ability to grasp fully your intent and receive from you as readily as should normally be. I will try to work on this as my mind allows.

. Yes, I can understand how many people come with full cups, yet hopefully with room when sincere efforts are made with genuine interest to gain a fuller knowledge of the actual belief systems being offered for consideration. My experience on the various Indian Reservations was to truly go in order to learn. Not just about “their religion”, but to learn about “my religion”, as well, For in the end, there is but one religion of which we all have had portions revealed to us which, though a few corners and swirls appear different, when we step far enough back, are enabled to see them all as pieces of a single great jigsaw puzzle, the understanding of which allows one to engage in the forming of the One Sacred Hoop of All Nations, which is a truly magnanimous and all encompassing realization of the Oneness of Humanity, that we may indeed recognize, in the words of Baha’u’llah, “Ye are all the leaves of one Tree, and the Fruits of One Branch. Regard ye not one another as strangers. The earth is one country, and mankind its citizens.”

Peace, Namaste, Mitakuye Oyasin, Allah’u’Abha

Oh then we can continue this conversation when you are feeling better? It is difficult to think while in pain or on painkillers.

There are are many many similarities between religions. My teachers always said to look at that which units us first and there is no need to apologize. I am probably not the best of instructors in this department either.

But no matter lets pick this up when you are better. Wish you a speedy recovery.

/Victor

 

[Grym]

Actually, it is a religion:

thefreedictionary.com/religion

As you can see, it meets the conditions in the 3rd and possibly 4th definitions.

Or if you like it is maybe a philosophy? thefreedictionary.com/philosophy

As you can see it meets ***all *** the criteria on this page.

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

Or else it might be psycology? thefreedictionary.com/Psycology
It meet all but number 3 on that page.

1. The science that deals with mental processes and behavior.
2. The emotional and behavioral characteristics of an individual, group, or activity: the psychology of war.
3. Subtle tactical action or argument used to manipulate or influence another: He used poor psychology on his employer when trying to make the point.
4. Philosophy The branch of metaphysics that studies the soul, the mind, and the relationship of life and mind to the functions of the body.

What you say? That Buddhsim is not a science. Well lets see? thefreedictionary.com/Science. Well well well the Dhamma meets all the criteria here except the last one! So It is a science then?

a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
c. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I’ve got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5. Science Christian Science.

Buddhism also fit the explanation of **diplomacy **in about the same degree as a religion (last point) thefreedictionary.com/Diplomacy

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the conduct of the relations of one state with another by peaceful means
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) skill in the management of international relations
3. tact, skill, or cunning in dealing with people

and finally it also seems to be a medicine thefreedictionary.com/Medicine according to point number 5 on that page.

.

The real truth is there is no category for the Dhamma or rather The Dhamma of Gautama is its own category. It can be either a religion or a philosophy or a psychology depending on its use.

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Dhamma

Cheers

/Victor

PS
But if you absolutely must categorize it. It is a much better fit in the folders of Science or Philosophy or Psycology according to that dictionary. Dont you think?
DS

 

[mlz]

Mark 13:32 “But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.”

rossum

My guess is you don’t really understand the beauty of the Trinity of which the Catholic Church has taught which would be a whole new thread to discuss .
mlz

 

[daler]

Oh then we can continue this conversation when you are feeling better? It is difficult to think while in pain or on painkillers.

There are are many many similarities between religions. My teachers always said to look at that which units us first and there is no need to apologize. I am probably not the best of instructors in this department either.

But no matter lets pick this up when you are better. Wish you a speedy recovery.

/Victor

Victor,
. Thank so much for all the patience and understanding you show. It is very much appreciated.
. Just briefly though, your teacher is spot on when speaking of that which unites us as being thee most important thing! Very good. Very good…

Dale

 

[daler]

Victor,
. I have something to share with you which I found on another thread. It is great!

“One day the Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude young man came up and began insulting him. “You have no right teaching others,” he shouted. “You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake!"
The Buddha was not upset by these insults. Instead he asked the young man, “Tell me, if you buy a gift for someone, and that person does not take it, to whom does the gift belong?"
The young man was surprised to be asked such a strange question and answered, “It would belong to me, because I bought the gift."
The Buddha smiled and said, “That is correct. And it is exactly the same with your anger. If you become angry with me and I do not get insulted, then the anger falls back on you. You are then the only one who becomes unhappy, not me. All you have done is hurt yourself.”
(Source unknown)

---

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. I have something to share with you which I found on another thread. It is great!

“One day the Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude young man came up and began insulting him. “You have no right teaching others,” he shouted. “You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake!"
The Buddha was not upset by these insults. Instead he asked the young man, “Tell me, if you buy a gift for someone, and that person does not take it, to whom does the gift belong?"
The young man was surprised to be asked such a strange question and answered, “It would belong to me, because I bought the gift."
The Buddha smiled and said, “That is correct. And it is exactly the same with your anger. If you become angry with me and I do not get insulted, then the anger falls back on you. You are then the only one who becomes unhappy, not me. All you have done is hurt yourself.”
(Source unknown)

---

Source not unknown.
It is from the Akkosa Sutta best translated as “Insult”

You can read it here:
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn07/sn07.002.budd.html

/Victor

PS
It is from my favorite sutta collection. Which includes the Karaniya Metta Sutta (loving kindness) and the citation from the sutta of the Sage is from there.

Some of it is translated here
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/

All of these suttas are particularly beautiful and contain much of the central wisdom of Buddhism.

I also recommend the Victory Sutta
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.11.than.html.

When the practice described in this sutta is perfected it will make bodily pain and discomfort more bearable.

EDIT: I just reread the sutta. The description in it is not enough for the practice. If you are more interested Let me know and I will describe the practise in more detail.

DS

 

[daler]

Source not unknown.
It is from the Akkosa Sutta best translated as “Insult”

I also recommend the Victory Sutta
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.11.than.html.

When the practice described in this sutta is perfected it will make bodily pain and discomfort more bearable.

EDIT: I just reread the sutta. The description in it is not enough for the practice. If you are more interested Let me know and I will describe the practise in more detail.

DS

Good stuff! The victory sutta is enlightening, for this life appears to be more than it is. While we occupy this body and have strength and power, we seem invincible. But when we are ill and dying, all that invincibility, strength, and power leaves us. What then is left of us? If we identify our “self” with the body, it is sure to die. But if we recognize that we are not the body, and prepare ourselves while in this life for the next, then we shall find ourselves possessed of strength which does not die.

“The world is but a show. Vain and empty. A mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it…” Baha’u’llah

You might enjoy this, about two pages in length:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-153.html

 

[Grym]

Good stuff! The victory sutta is enlightening, for this life appears to be more than it is. While we occupy this body and have strength and power, we seem invincible. But when we are ill and dying, all that invincibility, strength, and power leaves us. What then is left of us? If we identify our “self” with the body, it is sure to die. But if we recognize that we are not the body, and prepare ourselves while in this life for the next, then we shall find ourselves possessed of strength which does not die.

“The world is but a show. Vain and empty. A mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it…” Baha’u’llah

You might enjoy this, about two pages in length:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-153.html

Thank you Dale. And it is perfectly fine to think as you do if it gives you strength in your trying time.

But the Dhamma does not encourage to identify the self with anything at all.

Rather it invites you to see the self as the illusion it really is. The self is a construct made up of an ongoing process. It is not more substantial than you next thought.

It is a stickhouse built with jengablocks that will fall if the right blocks are removed.

And that is what buddhism is about. Seeing the jengablocks and removing them until the self falls.

Only then is it possible to see the real reality.

/Victor

 

[daler]

Thank you Dale. And it is perfectly fine to think as you do if it gives you strength in your trying time.

But the Dhamma does not encourage to identify the self with anything at all.

Rather it invites you to see the self as the illusion it really is. The self is a construct made up of an ongoing process. It is not more substantial than you next thought.

It is a stickhouse built with jengablocks that will fall if the right blocks are removed.

And that is what buddhism is about. Seeing the jengablocks and removing them until the self falls.

Only then is it possible to see the real reality.

/Victor

Victor,
. I think that I follow what you are saying, that in a very real sense, even as people generally identify themselves with the temporal body, our constructed sense of self is basically a function of the ego, darting about as though in a hall of mirrors, convincing itself and others that the images are real and substantial, whereas in reality, these are illusions, or perhaps veils, which hide the true identity.

. Lately, a tooth has been bothering me. Several molars are embedded with fillings since childhood, and the dentist forewarned me of an impending root canal, recommending a crown. Finally, I relented and had the work done on just the one, although he identifies several others in nearly the same condition.
. This has made me think of how mortal the body is, decaying tooth by tooth, as the jengablocks you describe… ;’’-( Ultimately, we loose not only our teeth, but the jaw that holds them, and the skull, etc, etc…
. Knowing this, and not giving in to illusion, we can reset our priorities, and fix our gaze upon a Reality which knows no decay. However, we must, at some point, cease to consume that which affects or further contributes to the illusion. Entertaining vain imaginations and idle fancies is not progress, but a perpetual trap in which a spider is caught in its own web. (But Ohhh… How we love to spin those threads!)

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. I think that I follow what you are saying, that in a very real sense, even as people generally identify themselves with the temporal body, our constructed sense of self is basically a function of the ego, darting about as though in a hall of mirrors, convincing itself and others that the images are real and substantial, whereas in reality, these are illusions, or perhaps veils, which hide the true identity.

Yes something like that!

Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”

The buddhist description is not so poetical though. . It is more hands on. See below. And it is also recognized that generally speaking this illusion is upheld every moment of our lives and never unveiled for what it is.

Unveiling it is the buddhist cause.

. Lately, a tooth has been bothering me. Several molars are embedded with fillings since childhood, and the dentist forewarned me of an impending root canal, recommending a crown. Finally, I relented and had the work done on just the one, although he identifies several others in nearly the same condition.
. This has made me think of how mortal the body is, decaying tooth by tooth, as the jengablocks you describe… ;’’-( Ultimately, we loose not only our teeth, but the jaw that holds them, and the skull, etc, etc…

Pain in the teeth are pretty bad. It is difficult to block out being so close to the place where we think our “selfs” are situated. I feel for you!

The buddhist practice of contemplating the body goes through the body from top to toe and enumarating all the parts of the body. Then you go through the body dependent on the elements and the five khandas and come to the realisation that neiter part holds any trace of an self.

Later on you move on to mental processes and again realise that there is no self in these.

Simply speaking. Contemplating the body gives you a nice “bi” product. Since the self mentally becomes removed from the body through the practice the pain is reduced. But it is easier for pains in extremities. Tooth pain is “too close” to the self experience normally for this to be effective.

. Knowing this, and not giving in to illusion, we can reset our priorities, and fix our gaze upon a Reality which knows no decay. However, we must, at some point, cease to consume that which affects or further contributes to the illusion. Entertaining vain imaginations and idle fancies is not progress, but a perpetual trap in which a spider is caught in its own web. (But Ohhh… How we love to spin those threads!)

Desire and aversion are the driving force of becoming and finally birth, aging, decay and death.

The dependent origination of the self of which desire is one part is based on greed , hatred and ignorance of the Way.

Ye are even as the bird which soareth, with the full force of its mighty wings and with complete and joyous confidence, through the immensity of the heavens, until, impelled to satisfy its hunger, it turneth longingly to the water and clay of the earth below it, and, having been entrapped in the mesh of its desire, findeth itself impotent to resume its flight to the realms whence it came. Powerless to shake off the burden weighing on its sullied wings, that bird, hitherto an inmate of the heavens, is now forced to seek a dwelling-place upon the dust. Wherefore, O My servants, defile not your wings with the clay of waywardness and vain desires, and suffer them not to be stained with the dust of envy and hate, that ye may not be hindered from soaring in the heavens of My divine knowledge.

Buddhism is the tool to let go of the attachment to worldly things, which in buddhist vocabulary also means letting go of attachment to God and Heaven. So for a buddhist the above citation is not actually accurate.


But it is pretty good all the same.
/Victor

 

[daler]

Yes something like that!

The dependent origination of the self of which desire is one part is based on greed , hatred and ignorance of the Way.

Buddhism is the tool to let go of the attachment to worldly things, which in buddhist vocabulary also means letting go of attachment to God and Heaven. So for a buddhist the above citation is not actually accurate.


But it is pretty good all the same.
/Victor

When I was young and strong, happy in the world, in the late teens. I remember being struck by something the Lord Buddha said: “All existence is suffering.” I could not even begin to comprehend that, but as I grew older, burdened with responsibility, family, work, pain and sickness, and now am aging, I wholly concur that all existence is suffering.

the other aspect which took some time to gain a full appreciation of was the importance of attachment being the cause of suffering. the more that I recognize this and the more consciously I refuse the dictates within me to “want” this or that, and more deliberately deny myself the distractions and “things” of this world, the more free I feel, like that bird which continues to fly without sullying its wings, avoiding temptations, and so many things through which the world constantly calls out to us.

When you see kids going through a toy store, their little hands reaching out and grabbing everything that catches their eyes, then crying when they can’t have everything, that is attachment and the suffering it brings!!!

Ceasing the pattern of attachments, whether to things, even thoughts of self and pride, is very much liberating to the soul. the older I get, the less and less I want, for each want becomes another thing, and a weight to drag down my boat. Arghhh…

Namaste, brother. Enjoying the bits of wisdom. I need the tune up!

 

[Grym]

When I was young and strong, happy in the world, in the late teens. I remember being struck by something the Lord Buddha said: “All existence is suffering.” I could not even begin to comprehend that, but as I grew older, burdened with responsibility, family, work, pain and sickness, and now am aging, I wholly concur that all existence is suffering.

This is on of the argument that nibbana is only possible when there is the right mixture of heaven and hell in our lifes. Too much of one thing and nibbana seems less desirable than life and too much of the other makes it too difficult to lift your gaze above the fray.

I think “suffering” is a maltranslation. I think the word dissatisfaction is better.

All classes of existence leads to dissatisfaction. The time we spend in life being dissatisfied is far greater than the time we spend being content or happy. Generally speaking of course.

the other aspect which took some time to gain a full appreciation of was the importance of attachment being the cause of suffering. the more that I recognize this and the more consciously I refuse the dictates within me to “want” this or that, and more deliberately deny myself the distractions and “things” of this world, the more free I feel, like that bird which continues to fly without sullying its wings, avoiding temptations, and so many things through which the world constantly calls out to us.

The dependent origination describe how the chain of mental events unfolds that leads to craving and attachment. When one is able to see these events unfold within you and desire arise then you understand how the mechanism of the self and ego works. With this knowledge, like a surgeon, it is possible to destroy one of the steps in the unfolding the rest of the chain falls! And the self is never born in that case… I usually cut out the value I ascribe a thing, then no desire for it or aversion from it can arise.

The value we ascribe things. That is one of the aspects of Anatta.

There are three axioms that describes this world. They are the opposite of nibbana.

All things are transient. Nothing last forever. (Anicca)
All things lack inherent value. They only have value ascribed them in the minds of people. (Anatta)
All phenomena leads to dissatisfaction. (Dukkha).

When you see kids going through a toy store, their little hands reaching out and grabbing everything that catches their eyes, then crying when they can’t have everything, that is attachment and the suffering it brings!!!

Ceasing the pattern of attachments, whether to things, even thoughts of self and pride, is very much liberating to the soul. the older I get, the less and less I want, for each want becomes another thing, and a weight to drag down my boat. Arghhh…

Namaste, brother. Enjoying the bits of wisdom. I need the tune up!

Yepp yepp and yepp! The Pattern of attachment. That is the Dependent Origination in Dhamma language.
Nice explanation.

Do the Baha’i have an exposition of this?

/Victor