Buddist on Catholic answers?

[daler]

Yes something like that!

Desire and aversion are the driving force of becoming and finally birth, aging, decay and death.

The dependent origination of the self of which desire is one part is based on greed , hatred and ignorance of the Way.

Buddhism is the tool to let go of the attachment to worldly things, which in buddhist vocabulary also means letting go of attachment to God and Heaven. So for a buddhist the above citation is not actually accurate.


But it is pretty good all the same.
/Victor

Victor,
. The best I can relate to your references here to detachment even from God and Heaven, from the Bahai perspective comes to me from Selections from the Writings of the Bab:

. "Worship thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."

Does this in any way connect or resonate with you from the standpoint of your understanding of the Buddha’s teachings?

Thank you so much for your continued dialogue with me. I am relearning much which I had not looked at for some thirty years or more, except on occasion. It is reviving to restudy these concepts as it returns me to that time in my life, late teens, early twenties, when Buddha was my Jesus, when I had given up on Jesus because of the hypocrisy in the Church at the time, what with all the racism, materialism, Viet Nam war, etc, etc. It took me a few years to come back to accepting Christ again, realizing that the sins of those who called themselves by His name were not caused by Him.

. I still see them now as two wells from which the same underground stream of crystal pure water of life flows for those who are thirsty. The incredible wisdom and beauty of the words of both Buddha and Jesus astound me.

Thank you, brother
Namaste

 

[daler]

I must say that if Buddha was a manifestation of God then the Buddhists might as well torch the sacred scriptures and go to the spa.

That would be totally illogical and make nonsense of the Dhamma.

As to the Buddha being humble. I and the scriptures would suggest rather the opposite.
Buddha never made any claim not to understand the Brahma. Rather the opposite.

The scriptures claim he refuted all his contemporaries and even was a teacher of God (the Brahma) himself.

Like Jesus the Buddha was revolutionary and a rebel to his time. Those people are not humble i dare say. . What do you think?

/Victor

Victor,
. So pleased to see you posting within the same minute of my own reply to you, and this very subject has remained on my mind for a few days. The confusions, from my perspective, revolves around the usage of this relatively new term “Manifestation of God”, with which I see you struggling in any consideration of its application being appropriate to the Lord Buddha.

. I think that the way I handle that (as I do appreciate the difference in perspective) is that the Supreme Reality and Source of all created things, whether in the heavens and the earth, exceeds the physical world and is also the Source and the Well-Spring of Wisdom and Guidance, of Whom the Buddha most certainly manifests those heavenly attributes, both being the embodiment of these exalted qualities and a Teacher showing us the Right Path and the Middle Way, that we, too, may follow the Tao of Right Conduct, etc.

. For me I do not see a contradiction, although I will admit it is a bit like aligning the metric system with the old English inch, foot, yard and pound… At least the intent is to find the utmost harmony and unity “with every creature great and small. live in harmony with all…”

Namaste

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. The best I can relate to your references here to detachment even from God and Heaven, from the Bahai perspective comes to me from Selections from the Writings of the Bab:

. "Worship thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."

Does this in any way connect or resonate with you from the standpoint of your understanding of the Buddha’s teachings?

Even if I think this is the true way to God. I can not really connect it to my practice.
My cultivation is much fueled by my understanding that the endless stream of rebirths might lead me to any hell in the future. And that not even God or heaven is forever and that even such a being might be destined for hell and sorrow in the future.

But also of my desire for final peace from constructing the world and release from dissatisfaction.

Thank you so much for your continued dialogue with me. I am relearning much which I had not looked at for some thirty years or more, except on occasion. It is reviving to restudy these concepts as it returns me to that time in my life, late teens, early twenties, when Buddha was my Jesus, when I had given up on Jesus because of the hypocrisy in the Church at the time, what with all the racism, materialism, Viet Nam war, etc, etc. It took me a few years to come back to accepting Christ again, realizing that the sins of those who called themselves by His name were not caused by Him.

. I still see them now as two wells from which the same underground stream of crystal pure water of life flows for those who are thirsty. The incredible wisdom and beauty of the words of both Buddha and Jesus astound me.

Thank you, brother
Namaste

They do have a LOT in common especially if one does not have a desire for nibbana.
In my opinion all the important things.

I have not skipped your previous answer but need some time to digest it properly.

Peace friend
/Victor

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. So pleased to see you posting within the same minute of my own reply to you, and this very subject has remained on my mind for a few days. The confusions, from my perspective, revolves around the usage of this relatively new term “Manifestation of God”, with which I see you struggling in any consideration of its application being appropriate to the Lord Buddha.

. I think that the way I handle that (as I do appreciate the difference in perspective) is that the Supreme Reality and Source of all created things, whether in the heavens and the earth, exceeds the physical world and is also the Source and the Well-Spring of Wisdom and Guidance, of Whom the Buddha most certainly manifests those heavenly attributes, both being the embodiment of these exalted qualities and a Teacher showing us the Right Path and the Middle Way, that we, too, may follow the Tao of Right Conduct, etc.

. For me I do not see a contradiction, although I will admit it is a bit like aligning the metric system with the old English inch, foot, yard and pound… At least the intent is to find the utmost harmony and unity “with every creature great and small. live in harmony with all…”

Namaste

I think the contradiction is pretty central to the core of buddhism. The path to nibbana is walked by us human beings without the help of any God.

Buddhism is agnostic at heart. (At least my own practise). It is not through believing in any God that one reaches Nibbana.

To get to a destination there must be desire to reach that destination. To reach God there must be desire to reach God.

To reach nibbana there is no desire to reach God. That is a separate destination that is also reachable through the practise of dhamma and the four divine abidings.

Buddhists do not give the same credence to God as followers of that path does. For us there are a multitude of Creator Gods that created their own part of the universe. There are Gods both beneath that station and above.

But no god whatsoever created the Samsara or us. They themselves are apart of Samsara as we are. In *essence * there is no difference between a God a human or a dog.

So in our way to see it. God is not the Source of any human on the planet nor is he in any way responsible for *our * actions. Neither can God absolve us from our sins.

But the TRUE position of Buddhists is that God and Creation is a big Dont Really Care issue. It is not central to our cultivation at all.

/Victor

 

[daler]

I think the contradiction is pretty central to the core of buddhism. The path to nibbana is walked by us human beings without the help of any God.

Buddhism is agnostic at heart. (At least my own practise). It is not through believing in any God that one reaches Nibbana.

To get to a destination there must be desire to reach that destination. To reach God there must be desire to reach God.

To reach nibbana there is no desire to reach God. That is a separate destination that is also reachable through the practise of dhamma and the four divine abidings.

Buddhists do not give the same credence to God as followers of that path does. For us there are a multitude of Creator Gods that created their own part of the universe. There are Gods both beneath that station and above.

But no god whatsoever created the Samsara or us. They themselves are apart of Samsara as we are. In *essence * there is no difference between a God a human or a dog.

So in our way to see it. God is not the Source of any human on the planet nor is he in any way responsible for *our * actions. Neither can God absolve us from our sins.

But the TRUE position of Buddhists is that God and Creation is a big Dont Really Care issue. It is not central to our cultivation at all.

/Victor

Victor,
. Thank you for your honest thoughts on all of this. Its pretty late now and I’m very tired, but I want to study it deeper and take it in and let it sit on my soul awhile because it is heavy stuff, at the heart of things, and there can be some sort of discomfort when one gets that close into the heart where private thoughts, emotions, maybe even fears of the unknown lie at the center of our being.
. So I want to leave it alone for just now. Nevertheless, I thank you for sharing what you’ve shared with me tonight. I only want the best and peace and harmony and unity above any things that separate and break that down since at the core of all of us there is this life force which comes from the same place. Like we start out as little birds that one day venture out to find their way but long for the nest and want to go home.
. Good nite brother. Sleep well. Peace

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. Thank you for your honest thoughts on all of this. Its pretty late now and I’m very tired, but I want to study it deeper and take it in and let it sit on my soul awhile because it is heavy stuff, at the heart of things, and there can be some sort of discomfort when one gets that close into the heart where private thoughts, emotions, maybe even fears of the unknown lie at the center of our being.
. So I want to leave it alone for just now. Nevertheless, I thank you for sharing what you’ve shared with me tonight. I only want the best and peace and harmony and unity above any things that separate and break that down since at the core of all of us there is this life force which comes from the same place. Like we start out as little birds that one day venture out to find their way but long for the nest and want to go home.
. Good nite brother. Sleep well. Peace

Yes Sleep well. For me it is noon and I have been busy washing my car and just drove it in to dry to wax later on. .

We have spoken a lot about what separates our paths. Let me follow my teachers advice and find that which units us.

For instance the four brahma viharas. Divine abodes. Love, compassion, mutual joy and equanimity. they are called in Buddhism.

dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=4_Brahma_Viharas

I myself is drawn to upekkha. What do you think? Is it possible to defeat hate with equanimity or do you always need Love to do so?

/Victor

 

[rossum]

If there are any Buddhists on here.

If I live a true Christian life, would this mean that I might have already started a path with Buddha because of there similarities?

Yes.

To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

– Dhammapada 14:5

Putting that into a Christian context:

• to avoid all evil - follow the Ten Commandments.
• to cultivate good - “Love your neighbour as yourself.”
• to cleanse one’s mind - meditate.

The last is the least common among Christians. Either find a Christian meditation that suits you, like Saying the Jesus Prayer, or else find a non-specific meditation like counting breaths.

rossum

 

[daler]

Yes Sleep well. For me it is noon and I have been busy washing my car and just drove it in to dry to wax later on. .

We have spoken a lot about what separates our paths. Let me follow my teachers advice and find that which units us.

For instance the four brahma viharas. Divine abodes. Love, compassion, mutual joy and equanimity. they are called in Buddhism.

dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=4_Brahma_Viharas

I myself is drawn to upekkha. What do you think? Is it possible to defeat hate with equanimity or do you always need Love to do so?

/Victor

Victor,
. Very interesting how in articulation these different facets are revealed. I would agree that equanimity is perhaps what accomplishes the most in dealing with others. When you think of how children and adolescents (some adults, too) try to manipulate with emotional displays and really are seeking to control you or advance themselves on the alpha scale, equanimity is a form of applied detachment, allowing them to play out their drama without ourselves being drawn into it. Easier to say than do, however…

. I am reminded of calling upon the attributes of the Ever-Abiding go hand in hand with what this is in us, tapping this spirit. Here are a the first few lines of what is known as the Long Healing Prayer, with a link to the whole.

He is the Healer, the Sufficer, the Helper, the All-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
I call on Thee O Exalted One, O Faithful One, O Glorious One! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Sovereign, O Upraiser, O Judge! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Peerless One, O Eternal One, O Single One! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-80.html

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. Very interesting how in articulation these different facets are revealed. I would agree that equanimity is perhaps what accomplishes the most in dealing with others. When you think of how children and adolescents (some adults, too) try to manipulate with emotional displays and really are seeking to control you or advance themselves on the alpha scale, equanimity is a form of applied detachment, allowing them to play out their drama without ourselves being drawn into it. Easier to say than do, however…

. I am reminded of calling upon the attributes of the Ever-Abiding go hand in hand with what this is in us, tapping this spirit. Here are a the first few lines of what is known as the Long Healing Prayer, with a link to the whole.

He is the Healer, the Sufficer, the Helper, the All-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
I call on Thee O Exalted One, O Faithful One, O Glorious One! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Sovereign, O Upraiser, O Judge! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!
I call on Thee O Peerless One, O Eternal One, O Single One! Thou the Sufficing, Thou the Healing, Thou the Abiding, O Thou Abiding One!

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-80.html

What qualities in a person does God find pleasing? What qualities does he shun?

 

[daler]

What qualities in a person does God find pleasing? What qualities does he shun?

Victor,
. This may be at the top of the list…

. “Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized.”
(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 384)

. Also, cleanliness:

. “God loveth those who are pure. Naught in the Bayan and in the sight of God is more loved than purity and immaculate cleanliness…”
Selections from “The Writings of the Bab” Page 80

. You might find this interesting. In it, backbiting is very strongly condemned, along with pride…

bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk/fragrant/true-seeker.html
.

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. This may be at the top of the list…

. “Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized.”
(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 384)

Behind my seat above my working table in my study is the Chinese calligraphy “Sincerity is the Divine Way”
.

This is certainly no 1 on *my *list!

. Also, cleanliness:

. “God loveth those who are pure. Naught in the Bayan and in the sight of God is more loved than purity and immaculate cleanliness…”
Selections from “The Writings of the Bab” Page 80

Yes and I am guessing (from reading the first line in the link you provided) not only cleanliness of the body but much more so (purity) of the mind?

As rossum quoted from the Dhammapada earlier

To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

– Dhammapada 14:5

. You might find this interesting. In it, backbiting is very strongly condemned, along with pride…

bahai-faith.manvell.org.uk/fragrant/true-seeker.html
.

Thanks. I must work now but I will get back to you with a good response that I have from VisuddhiMagga. The Path of Purification!

/Victor

 

[daler]

Behind my seat above my working table in my study is the Chinese calligraphy “Sincerity is the Divine Way”
.

Yes and I am guessing (from reading the first line in the link you provided) not only cleanliness of the body but much more so (purity) of the mind?

As rossum quoted from the Dhammapada earlier

To avoid all evil,
to cultivate good,
and to cleanse one’s mind -
this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

/Victor

Victor,
. Thank you very much for these comments, which are truly the essence of what I always tend to notice about the Buddhists whom I meet and the qualities which are admirable in them. When there is sincerity, and purity of heart, there is goodness in the soul.
. And simply shunning, or avoiding evil, gossip, wrongdoing, etc keeps one on a good path and out of the ditch… and there are many ditches to avoid! A clean mind sees beauty in the world.
. Very good!

 

[Grym]

Victor,
. Thank you very much for these comments, which are truly the essence of what I always tend to notice about the Buddhists whom I meet and the qualities which are admirable in them. When there is sincerity, and purity of heart, there is goodness in the soul.
. And simply shunning, or avoiding evil, gossip, wrongdoing, etc keeps one on a good path and out of the ditch… and there are many ditches to avoid! A clean mind sees beauty in the world.
. Very good!

A lay follower has the five moral rules to abide by in everyday life.

Abstain from…

1. 
   *]killing
   *]taking what is not given
   *]sexual misconduct
   *]false speech
   *]taking drugs
   
   Then there are the 8 precepts on fullmoon weekends when we are supposed to leave the worldly behind and only improve our spiritual life.
   1. 
      *]I undertake to abstain from causing harm and taking life (both human and non-human).
      *] I undertake to abstain from taking what is not given (for example stealing, displacements that may cause misunderstandings).
      *] I undertake to abstain from sexual activity.
      *] I undertake to abstain from wrong speech: telling lies, deceiving others, manipulating others, using hurtful words.
      *] I undertake to abstain from using intoxicating drinks and drugs, which lead to carelessness.
      *] I undertake to abstain from eating at the wrong time (the right time is after sunrise, before noon).
      *] I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands (decorative accessories).
      *] I undertake to abstain from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping, and overindulging in sleep.
      
      On these days only spiritual activities are allowed. Often people take turns since making food is not allowed and obviously someone must watch the kids. .
      
      then there are the 10 precepts. Which are used by ascetics that do not want to become monks. These are for more serious practitioners that will abide by them for long periods of time and sometimes for life.
      
      1. 
         *]Refrain from killing living things that breathe.
         *] Refrain from stealing.
         *] Refrain from unchastity (sensuality, sexuality, lust).
         *] Refrain from incorrect speech.
         *] Refrain from taking intoxicants.
         *] Refrain from taking food at inappropriate times (after noon).
         *] Refrain from singing, dancing, playing music or attending entertainment programs (performances).
         *] Refrain from wearing perfume, cosmetics and garland (decorative accessories).
         *] Refrain from sitting on high chairs and sleeping on luxurious, soft beds.
         *] Refrain from accepting money.
         
         All this is refrained from to purify the mind for the task at hand.
         
         /Victor

 

[daler]

All this is refrained from to purify the mind for the task at hand.

. Whether it be the Ten Commandments, Zoroasters: Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, The Buddha’s 8 Fold Path, or the Core values of the Lakota, or pretty much any people, in order for there to be harmony and progress in a society, there must be some form of these practiced, and all cultures which depart from them go into chaos and decline.