Bullfighting: Justify Cruelty with Tradition

[Corki]

Rape is wrong, unequivocally. Are there any “reasonable nuanced views” on the matter?

That would not likely be a civilized conversation. I have never known anyone to try to put forth a nuanced view on rape but, if they did, I would hope that you could use reason and morality to persuade him/her rather than simply say that thier view did not “count”.

Rape, as you say, is wrong unequivocally. Bullfighting is not that clear cut.

 

[meltzerboy]

Rape is wrong, unequivocally. Are there any “reasonable nuanced views” on the matter?

AFAIK, rape doesn’t have a cultural tradition. But circumcision, for example, does, and this topic has been discussed both pro and con.

 

[Nabooru]

Rape does have a cultural tradition. It’s called child marriage.

 

[meltzerboy]

Rape does have a cultural tradition. It’s called child marriage.

At an age below that of mutual consent? In which culture?

 

[Crescentinus]

Rape does have a cultural tradition. It’s called child marriage.

I see your strawman.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The “cultural tradition” argument is patently invalid: it argues for the permissibility of a practice on the basis that there is a long, established tradition for it. In other words, just because bullfighting has been going on for a long time, and people love it, it doesn’t follow that there is anything okay with it.

Actually, Spencer, the “cultural tradition” argument is more complicated than this, as I briefly tried to say before. I repeat, again—I’m against bullfighting. But, again, I’m going to say that there are aspects of it that I don’t think can be understood by someone outside the culture.

If you live in the U.S., go after something American to campaign against.

 

[Crescentinus]

Actually, Spencer, the “cultural tradition” argument is more complicated than this, as I briefly tried to say before. I repeat, again—I’m against bullfighting. But, again, I’m going to say that there are aspects of it that I don’t think can be understood by someone outside the culture.

If you live in the U.S., go after something American to campaign against.

He did with factory farming, and he lost.

 

[Nabooru]

At an age below that of mutual consent? In which culture?

In India, girls can be married when they’re very young, say five or six, but the marriage isn’t supposed to be consummated until she’s around thirteen or so. However, since he paid a dowry her husband can technically show up at her home at any time and insist on having her right then and there.

In Islamic societies run according to sharia law, a marriage can be consummated when a girl is nine.

And I wasn’t trying to make an argument. I was just pointing out that there is a cultural tradition of rape in some places. Although I must say, the fact that you’re becoming increasingly hostile is not helping your side.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Spanish, Hungarian, Portuguese and Austrian equestrian ethics can some of the highest in the world, or at least in Europe.

True again…and gee, where did the Austrians get their best horses and the most ethical part of their horsemanship? —from the Spanish and Portuguese, of course.

 

[Crescentinus]

True again…and gee, where did the Austrians get their best horses and the most ethical part of their horsemanship? —from the Spanish and Portuguese, of course.

Exactly.

 

[boomerang]

Any animal exploitation that causes unneccessary fear and suffering just for the purpose of entertainment is morally wrong in my book, tradition be damned! Some “traditions” should be relegated to the trash heap. In a Ben Franklin biography I read a few years ago, Ben was describing in a letter some amusement he went to see while sojourning in England. He wrote that it was considered great fun to take a dog into an arena, tie fireworks all over it, and light the fireworks. Hilarity ensued as the folks out on a nice family outing got a good laugh at the terrified dog running blindly trying to escape the flames, smoke and noise. Disgusting by our standards today. I’m rooting for the bulls!

 

[Nabooru]

True again…and gee, where did the Austrians get their best horses and the most ethical part of their horsemanship? —from the Spanish and Portuguese, of course.

Treating one animal well gives the right to abuse another?

 

[spencelo]

Actually, Spencer, the “cultural tradition” argument is more complicated than this

I welcome anyone to put forth what they believe to be the strongest “cultural tradition” argument for bullfighting. That argument, I predict, will consist of premises that are not more complicated–though perhaps expressed with more sophistication–than the following:

1. Bullfighting has been around for a long time.
2. People love bullfighting - love love love.

 

[triumphguy]

I welcome anyone to put forth what they believe to be the strongest “cultural tradition” argument for bullfighting. That argument, I predict, will consist of premises that are not more complicated–though perhaps may be expressed with more sophistication–than the following:

1. Bullfighting has been around for a long time.
2. People love bullfighting - love love love.

Perhaps other people may have a different understanding of suffering and death than we do.
Perhaps they embrace mortality and death in a way that we do not - and cannot.
Perhaps our sanitized, plastic wrapped, safe little lives are actually the most abusive?

 

[Crescentinus]

I welcome anyone to put forth what they believe to be the strongest “cultural tradition” argument for bullfighting. That argument, I predict, will consist of premises that are not more complicated–though perhaps expressed with more sophistication–than the following:

1. Bullfighting has been around for a long time.
2. People love bullfighting - love love love.

One does not simply oversimplify cultural traditions.

 

[spencelo]

Perhaps other people may have a different understanding of suffering and death than we do.
Perhaps they embrace mortality and death in a way that we do not - and cannot.
Perhaps our sanitized, plastic wrapped, safe little lives are actually the most abusive?

Like I said, if you want to put forth the argument, have at it. Your “perhapses” don’t amount to an argument.

 

[Nabooru]

Any animal exploitation that causes unneccessary fear and suffering just for the purpose of entertainment is morally wrong in my book, tradition be damned! Some “traditions” should be relegated to the trash heap. In a Ben Franklin biography I read a few years ago, Ben was describing in a letter some amusement he went to see while sojourning in England. He wrote that it was considered great fun to take a dog into an arena, tie fireworks all over it, and light the fireworks. Hilarity ensued as the folks out on a nice family outing got a good laugh at the terrified dog running blindly trying to escape the flames, smoke and noise. Disgusting by our standards today. I’m rooting for the bulls!

It’s shamef how in past generations such delight was taken in cruelty. The same issue we see now with bullfighting is the same that arose with the outlawing of bear baiting: it’s been done for a long time and people enjoy it.

If you want to go by the CCC, it says that animals may be used for food and clothing, and that they may be used for experimentation, provided that expeirmentation serves a good. It also specifies that animals are not to be killed or suffered needlessly.

 

[Corki]

In India, girls can be married when they’re very young, say five or six, but the marriage isn’t supposed to be consummated until she’s around thirteen or so. However, since he paid a dowry her husband can technically show up at her home at any time and insist on having her right then and there.

In Islamic societies run according to sharia law, a marriage can be consummated when a girl is nine.

And I wasn’t trying to make an argument. I was just pointing out that there is a cultural tradition of rape in some places. Although I must say, the fact that you’re becoming increasingly hostile is not helping your side.

I think that you and the OP are talking about rape differently. Rape, as in the violent, dehumanizing sexual conquest of an unwilling victim, is always and everywhere considered wrong. There is no cultural tradition supporting this.

Statutory rape is another issue altogether. I think most people, especially westerners would be appalled at the idea of a 9 year old being expected to consumate a marriage. On the other hand, we have regular disagreement even between states on what the age of consent should be even in the US.

 

[triumphguy]

Like I said, if you want to put forth the argument, have at it. Your “perhapses” don’t amount to an argument.

Perhaps your semi constant lapsing into snarkasm makes me not want to bother.

 

[Nabooru]

I think that you and the OP are talking about rape differently. Rape, as in the violent, dehumanizing sexual conquest of an unwilling victim, is always and everywhere considered wrong. There is no cultural tradition supporting this.

Statutory rape is another issue altogether. I think most people, especially westerners would be appalled at the idea of a 9 year old being expected to consumate a marriage. On the other hand, we have regular disagreement even between states on what the age of consent should be even in the US.

I doubt many nine-year-old girls have voluntary sexual intercourse. At least during the commission of the act, they’d react with pain and demand it would stop, with no relief in these cases.