Bullfighting: Justify Cruelty with Tradition

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Crescentinus said:
It tells me that you focus more into Spanish-style bullfighting.

And this, along with your other posts, is the basis for me suspecting that you want to convert people into veganism. :hmmm:
I want you to please prove me wrong.
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Sure, I do. But so what? I can only put forth my views and arguments and hope that they persuade people to re-orient their thinking about our oppressive relationship to nonhuman animals. If you choose to turn vegan on the basis of what I say, great. If not, no one is forcing you to.
 
spencelo said:
Sure, I do. But so what? I can only put forth my views and arguments and hope that they persuade people to re-orient their thinking about our oppressive relationship to nonhuman animals. If you choose to turn vegan on the basis of what I say, great. If not, no one is forcing you to.
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Maybe you’re not some militant vegan whose goal in life is to convert as many people to veganism before dying. :hmmm:

As for the issue of bullfighting, here’s my view about it.
The controversy surrounding it will never go away.
 
You know Spencelo I dissagree with bull fighting, and hunting for fun instead of food.

I have been on a vegan diet four days now, combining proteins and all. For four days I have been week and shaky.

Tommorow I will eat spaghetti putanesca which contains anchovies. Don’t say I didn’t try it your way. I did and the only positive was I have lost weight.
 
andrewstx said:
You know Spencelo I dissagree with bull fighting, and hunting for fun instead of food.

I have been on a vegan diet four days now, combining proteins and all. For four days I have been week and shaky.

Tommorow I will eat spaghetti putanesca which contains anchovies. Don’t say I didn’t try it your way. I did and the only positive was I have lost weight.
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Hi Andrew,

I’m glad you were motivated to try a vegan diet, and I would encourage you not to give up - it may be hard at first. Like any diet, a vegan diet has to be well-balanced (it’s not healthy *just because *it’s vegan). The following is a helpful resource:

veganhealth.org/

Simple meal ideas - veganoutreach.org/guide/what_to_eat.html#meals
(In the “Starter guide” section, check out their recipes)

More recipes: eatingwell.com/recipes_menus/collections/healthy_vegan_recipes

More recipes: simpleveganrecipes.co.uk/
 
“There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals.”
— Ingrid Newkirk, Washingtonian magazine, Aug 1986
 
“Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we’d be against it.”
— PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989
 
Crescentinus said:
The reason why it is prevalent in Iberia and the lands that Spain as well as Portugal had colonized is due to the fact that bullfighting is an admiration of the bull’s fighting spirit. That is why bullfighting is not considered a sport unlike wrestling. Instead, bullfights are considered as part of Iberian culture and heritage.
I’m neutral when it comes to bullfighting, mind you.
The bullfight in itself is a very ritualized event. And contrary to American belief, the bull dies not a painful death, but a glorious one. In fact, the act of thrusting the sword into the bull is done in such a way that the bull would not die an agonizing death. If the faena (sword jab) fails to kill the bull by that stab to the aorta or heart, the matador will be booed a lot for having such lousy aim. Should the matador fail in killing the bull, it is considered dishonorable for the failing matador.
Also, the bull is honored for taking part in the bullfight. In some cases, even more so than the matadors themselves.
Just my observations on the matter.
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True, all of it.
 
spencelo said:
My new blogpost: animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/bullfighting-justifying-cruelty-with-tradition/

My guess would be that most Catholics don’t have a problem with bullfighting. Am I wrong?
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Bullfighting is something which really only concerns Spanish Catholics (or if it is practiced somewhere else) because it is a part of their culture and not a part of Catholicism. Religion and culture can sometimes be hard to separate but this is not one of those issues where it is hard and therefore I really don’t understand why you take it for granted that Catholics would not be against bullfighting? Because Spain is a traditional Catholic country?
 
Crescentinus said:
From what I’ve seen, most who oppose it are either Americans or Americanized. Just saying.

You do realize that Spanish Fighting Bulls and similar breeds are even tougher than normal cattle, right? And yes, the typical cattle breeds are very tough themselves. I’m no bullfighter nor even try and support it, but I’ve known that they are very tough. I’ve seen bulls give each other headbutts with such force that would easily kill a human outright.
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And not only fighting bulls. Not just heads. Not just bulls either.
 
Andromedus said:
Bullfighting is something which really only concerns Spanish Catholics (or if it is practiced somewhere else) because it is a part of their culture and not a part of Catholicism. Religion and culture can sometimes be hard to separate but this is not one of those issues where it is hard and therefore I really don’t understand why you take it for granted that Catholics would not be against bullfighting? Because Spain is a traditional Catholic country?
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Don’t forget Portugal as well as their former colonies.
 
Andromedus said:
That is why I added (or if it is practiced somewhere else) because I was not sure whether they do it at other places or not.
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Mea culpa.
In some places, it is done. In others, it isn’t. I know for a fact that it wasn’t done much here in the Philippines during the Spanish colonial era (1565-1898) and it was banned when the Americans came to colonize the Philippines.
 
Andromedus said:
Bullfighting is something which really only concerns Spanish Catholics (or if it is practiced somewhere else) because it is a part of their culture and not a part of Catholicism. Religion and culture can sometimes be hard to separate but this is not one of those issues where it is hard and therefore I really don’t understand why you take it for granted that Catholics would not be against bullfighting? Because Spain is a traditional Catholic country?
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Does Catholicism entail that bullfighting is wrong? If not, that’s concerning to me.
 
"That’s not at all what I was trying to say. My point was that in large part the Portuguese and Spanish people who engage in bullfighting act ethically towards their horses. "

Excuse me Abidewithme: Just exactly what part of having a horses vocal cords slit to silence it’s screams while being terrified and or gored by the bulls do you find ethical???
 
spencelo said:
My new blogpost: animalblawg.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/bullfighting-justifying-cruelty-with-tradition/

My guess would be that most Catholics don’t have a problem with bullfighting. Am I wrong?
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I do. I cheer for the bull every time.

When you abuse an animal you get what you deserve. A neighbor’s son came to visit her, gave her horse to his girlfriend for a ride, and they both ran the horses too hard, until the horse fell and threw her to the ground. Now, when they came for me for advice, I went ahead and assessed her and told them she should go to the hospital for head xrays, but in reality, she got what she deserved. The horse many not even make it with the injuries it sustained. Sorry, but my heart aches for the horse, not the moron who ran the horse until there was an accident.
 
horselvr said:
"That’s not at all what I was trying to say. My point was that in large part the Portuguese and Spanish people who engage in bullfighting act ethically towards their horses. "

Excuse me Abidewithme: Just exactly what part of having a horses vocal cords slit to silence it’s screams while being terrified and or gored by the bulls do you find ethical???
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Horselvr—In the excerpt you quoted, the writer said something to the effect that “It is believed…” about the purported vocal cord slicing. I couldn’t find any evidence to back up the writer’s belief that that goes on, and to my reading the writer herself didn’t seem too sure.

If you know the horse world here in the US, you know what horrible things go on here in the name of horsemanship…things you’ve probably seen with your own eyes. Yet, I’d say here, too, in large part most American horsemen try to act ethically towards their horses.

Because I do know firsthand what goes on here, I would sadly not be shocked if such abuses also took place in Spain or Portugal, off the radar of most people. It may happen, but I will not judge and convict without better evidence than some writer saying “It is believed…”. I do know on better evidence—some first hand, and some second hand—what ethical and excellent horsemen many of them are. The late Nuno Oliveira, just to name one superlative and ethical Portuguese rider, is still one of the most respected horsemen to have lived in the 20th century. In the US, even, many of the most compassionate and gifted horsemen, such as the legendary late Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman, were/are “old school” Californio horsemen, the Californio tradition being a direct descendent of Iberian equestrian ethics.

Do you find fox hunting unethical? You should.
 
Something tells me that Spencelo had abandoned this thread seeing as how he’s making new threads. 🙂
 
Rence said:
When you abuse an animal you get what you deserve. A neighbor’s son came to visit her, gave her horse to his girlfriend for a ride, and they both ran the horses too hard, until the horse fell and threw her to the ground. Now, when they came for me for advice, I went ahead and assessed her and told them she should go to the hospital for head xrays, but in reality, she got what she deserved. The horse many not even make it with the injuries it sustained. Sorry, but my heart aches for the horse, not the moron who ran the horse until there was an accident.
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So this girl, seemingly unaware of the horse’s stamina level, pushed it and both got injured. And we’re not supposed to feel sorry for the injured girl, but are for the horse?

Very, very misplaced sympathies. Sadly so.
 
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