Burden of Proof - Part 2

[Ben_Sinner]

This is an article from Psychology Today written by Dr. David Kyle Johnson

psychologytoday.com/blog/logical-take/201402/why-62-philosophers-are-atheists-part-i

It is basically saying “Since theists demand the Big Bang needs an explanation, God would need an explanation as well. Saying he doesn’t need one is a double standard. Since he can’t be explained, there is no evidence that He exists, thus there is not logical reason to believe”

Here is a paragraph from the actual article:

**Of course, theists will likely reply that they are not just saying God doesn’t need an explanation, but that by definition he doesn’t because by definition he is the greatest being, and the greatest being can’t have an explanation. (Anything that explains God would be greater.) It’s not clear to me that this is the case; but even so, the basic rule of logic that, in debates on existential matters, the burden of proof lies on the one making the positive existential claim is true regardless of whether the entity in question is unexplained or self-explained. For example, if someone suggested the existence of an alien race that created itself through time travel (by traveling back in time and seeding its own race), I would still demand they provided evidence for such beings before I believed. In addition, I could maintain that there is an infinite number of universes, each of which exists inexplicably—without cause or explanation. Yet to rationally believe that any other such universe exists, I would demand evidence.

All in all, atheists are not being irrational by justifying their atheism simply in a lack of evidence for God’s existence, any more than I am being irrational in justifying “a-bigfootism” in a lack of evidence for Bigfoot.**

What is the rebuttal?

 

[STT]

Yes. How does this equal prison?

You are simply are not free to reach what you long for. That is very definition of prison.

It can mean the following:

Those verses doesn’t really enlightening that there is a meaning in suffering. We must be rewarded with more suffering in Heaven in suffering is good and meaningful.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

How could we see goodness and love if Satan rules this world?

Because there is evidence of Love and Goodness all over this world in SPITE of Satan. If you can’t see it I am sorry for you.

 

[Tomdstone]

Have you ever lived in a dictatorship country? There is no sense of love, equality, friendship, etc there. .

Not true. You can have great friends in many authoritarian countries.

 

[davidv]

You are simply are not free to reach what you long for. That is very definition of prison.

I cannot accept your equivocation of prison.

Those verses doesn’t really enlightening that there is a meaning in suffering. We must be rewarded with more suffering in Heaven in suffering is good and meaningful.

I am truly sorry that you cannot understand a very clearly written answer to you question on the meaning of suffering.

 

[Peter_Plato]

We are not responsible for Adam’s and Eve’s sins.

He in fact left us here.

No, he didn’t leave us here. He went to the depths of our suffering and abandonment to become one with us here by emptying himself and becoming fully human.

When he died on the cross he asked, “Why have you abandoned me?”

He himself is here in our abandonment.

He showed his oneness with our abandonment in sin by using those words to point us to Psalm 22. Read it. You will see that the Psalm predicted Jesus’ experience of dying in a state of abandonment, but also that the outcome of it all would be the coming of his renewed kingdom.

His resurrection from the dead was the sign that he conquered death.

Recall that John the Baptist was in prison when he asked of Jesus, "Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?

Jesus referred to this prophecy from Isaiah being fulfilled in the life and actions of Jesus to convince John:

Be strong, do not fear;
your God will come,
he will come with vengeance;
with divine retribution
he will come to save you.”
Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Water will gush forth in the wilderness
and streams in the desert. (Isaiah 35)

Jesus concluded with: “And blessed is anyone who takes no offence at me.”

 

[STT]

No, he didn’t leave us here. He went to the depths of our suffering and abandonment to become one with us here by emptying himself and becoming fully human.

Why so? Just open the gates of Heaven and let people in. What is wrong with that? Instead God chose to become a human and suffer and die on the cross.

When he died on the cross he asked, “Why have you abandoned me?”

He knew that He would be abandoned. Why He asked?

He showed his oneness with our abandonment in sin by using those words to point us to Psalm 22. Read it. You will see that the Psalm predicted Jesus’ experience of dying in a state of abandonment, but also that the outcome of it all would be the coming of his renewed kingdom.

Those verse to me is related to the second coming to my opinion. Why do you think that they refer to the first coming? I am kind of confused.

His resurrection from the dead was the sign that he conquered death.

Resurrection is not such a strange thing for God.

Recall that John the Baptist was in prison when he asked of Jesus, "Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?

Jesus referred to this prophecy from Isaiah being fulfilled in the life and actions of Jesus to convince John:

Be strong, do not fear;
your God will come,
he will come with vengeance;
with divine retribution
he will come to save you.”
Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Water will gush forth in the wilderness
and streams in the desert. (Isaiah 35)

That is strange to me. Non of these happen when Jesus incarnated so why Jesus consider these verse as a proof that He is the one.

 

[PRmerger]

That is strange to me. Non of these happen when Jesus incarnated so why Jesus consider these verse as a proof that He is the one.

None of these happened? The blind did not see? The deaf did not hear?

Really?

 

[inocente]

Why so? Just open the gates of Heaven and let people in. What is wrong with that? Instead God chose to become a human and suffer and die on the cross.

The death opens the gates. “We may see heaven opened to us, when we perceive the Spirit descending and working upon us. God’s good work in us, is sure evidence of his good will towards us, and preparations for us.” - from Matthew Henry’s commentary on Jesus seeing heaven being torn open (Mark 1:10).

He knew that He would be abandoned. Why He asked?

Some say it was the agony of being crucified, others that it was the weight of our sins. Others say Jesus is using Psalm 22 as a prophecy: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? … I am poured out like water … people stare and gloat over me … But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me … He has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one … future generations will be told about the Lord”.

And future generations were told.

 

[neonblue]

No, it wouldn’t. The burden of proof is only on a person making a claim.

People believe in experience what they experience in life, all I knew was this life and its experience until I was 23 yrs old.

By the time I was 23 yrs old my mind was totally mess up, my memory was shot, I was totally addicted to many kinds of drugs LSD MDA Mescaline Grass Hash Hash Oil Glue Sniffing and other drugs I can’t remember. After a while I couldn’t face my friends anymore or people in general because I felt when I had a conversation with them I was saying things stupid even when I wasn’t on the drugs.
I had no confidence in myself and I felt people were smarter than me so I kept to myself and did all the drugs alone in my fantasy world listening to rock & roll day in and day out.
I went into a state of depression that was very bad and I did more and more drugs to try to be happy but it didn’t work.
It’s was Christmas Day 1978 and I was alone in the house everyone was out with their friends even my mother was out seeing a friend of hers.
I had no drugs that day and I was overcome with grief and I cried and I cried and I cried my mind was so messed up and my heart was breaking inside of me that I look up at the ceiling and said “God if you are real I need help bad I’m sorry for the way I lived my life”.
I thought I was grasping at straws and I felt there wasn’t any hope but than as I was crying I felt a powerful feeling surged through me it was like it started in the pit of my stomach rose up to my chest and into my mind and this amazing feeling of peace overflowed my mind like a river.
I looked up at the skies and said “God you’re real aren’t you”.
I felt so full of peace it was like it was too much and I felt so happy.
I left the house and went out into the streets and all kinds of thoughts went through my mind. Thoughts like “Does anyone know about this that God is real and am I the only one in the world that knows that”.
I seen an old man coming down the street and I felt like rushing over to him to say to him “Hey man He’s real God is real the whole world is fooled in thinking He’s not”.
It was the most dramatic experience I ever had in my life especially knowing that God is real all the craving for the drugs disappeared from my mind it was like “wiping white chalk off a blackboard” it no longer existed in my mind.
Since that day I read the Bible and I studied it with all my heart and I learned from the Bible what God require of me.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Why so? Just open the gates of Heaven and let people in. What is wrong with that? Instead God chose to become a human and suffer and die on the cross.

Heaven is essentially a completely different level of existence in the presence of God. People do not merit nor could we even tolerate heaven unless we are fundamentally transformed by grace. We cannot simply go into heaven because we wouldn’t be happy there – it would totally overwhelm us, like staring at a very intense light when your eyes are only accustomed to the dark. Our view of what will make us happy is completely out of alignment with reality and truth – we must be transformed from the inside out and reborn, sanctified and made holy in a spiritual sense. Then we can enter eternal life.

Have you ever read CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce? I think he does an admirable job describing the difference between our present existence and the eternal mode of being in the closing chapters.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

People believe in experience what they experience in life, all I knew was this life and its experience until I was 23 yrs old.

By the time I was 23 yrs old my mind was totally mess up, my memory was shot, I was totally addicted to many kinds of drugs LSD MDA Mescaline Grass Hash Hash Oil Glue Sniffing and other drugs I can’t remember. After a while I couldn’t face my friends anymore or people in general because I felt when I had a conversation with them I was saying things stupid even when I wasn’t on the drugs.
I had no confidence in myself and I felt people were smarter than me so I kept to myself and did all the drugs alone in my fantasy world listening to rock & roll day in and day out.
I went into a state of depression that was very bad and I did more and more drugs to try to be happy but it didn’t work.
It’s was Christmas Day 1978 and I was alone in the house everyone was out with their friends even my mother was out seeing a friend of hers.
I had no drugs that day and I was overcome with grief and I cried and I cried and I cried my mind was so messed up and my heart was breaking inside of me that I look up at the ceiling and said “God if you are real I need help bad I’m sorry for the way I lived my life”.
I thought I was grasping at straws and I felt there wasn’t any hope but than as I was crying I felt a powerful feeling surged through me it was like it started in the pit of my stomach rose up to my chest and into my mind and this amazing feeling of peace overflowed my mind like a river.
I looked up at the skies and said “God you’re real aren’t you”.
I felt so full of peace it was like it was too much and I felt so happy.
I left the house and went out into the streets and all kinds of thoughts went through my mind. Thoughts like “Does anyone know about this that God is real and am I the only one in the world that knows that”.
I seen an old man coming down the street and I felt like rushing over to him to say to him “Hey man He’s real God is real the whole world is fooled in thinking He’s not”.
It was the most dramatic experience I ever had in my life especially knowing that God is real all the craving for the drugs disappeared from my mind it was like “wiping white chalk off a blackboard” it no longer existed in my mind.
Since that day I read the Bible and I studied it with all my heart and I learned from the Bible what God require of me.

Thanks for this beautiful testimony of God’s saving grace. Although mine was not as dramatic as yours, I too was at the end of my rope and feeling how meaningless life seemed to be, when I realized that God was the only one who could save me. And like you, I called out to him and he was there, and since then I do not feel alone or without meaning.

It’s hard to explain to a person who has turned his back on God how real and easy his presence is. God is no burden!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Heaven is essentially a completely different level of existence in the presence of God. People do not merit nor could we even tolerate heaven unless we are fundamentally transformed by grace. We cannot simply go into heaven because we wouldn’t be happy there – it would totally overwhelm us, like staring at a very intense light when your eyes are only accustomed to the dark. Our view of what will make us happy is completely out of alignment with reality and truth – we must be transformed from the inside out and reborn, sanctified and made holy in a spiritual sense. Then we can enter eternal life.

Have you ever read CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce? I think he does an admirable job describing the difference between our present existence and the eternal mode of being in the closing chapters.

Oh yeah, I just read that. People who don’t love God really would rather be in Hell. They choose Hell.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh yeah, I just read that. People who don’t love God really would rather be in Hell. They choose Hell.

And be prepared for the riposte: who in their right mind would “choose Hell”?

And the response is: everyone who sins chooses Hell. We do it all the time. We know that something is bad for us, that it will create a breach between us and God, or us and our family…yet we choose it anyway.

That’s nothing more and nothing less than a foreshadowing of us “choosing Hell” forever.

 

[Kaninchen]

That is strange to me. Non of these happen when Jesus incarnated so why Jesus consider these verse as a proof that He is the one.

Ok, I may be biased in that I, obviously, don’t accept any of the New Testament and so on but you’re being bombarded by responses and, perhaps, need to step back, slow down and take your time - whatever decisions you eventually make.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Ok, I may be biased in that I, obviously, don’t accept any of the New Testament and so on but you’re being bombarded by responses and, perhaps, need to step back, slow down and take your time - whatever decisions you eventually make.

I agree.

Something to think about, however…

youtu.be/YrGVeB_SPJg

 

[STT]

None of these happened? The blind did not see? The deaf did not hear?

Really?

Ok lets see what part of signs didn’t happen:

(1) “he will come with vengeance;”
(2) “with divine retribution”
(3) "he will come to save you.”
(4) “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened” Not all blinds could see, just some were cured.
(5) “and the ears of the deaf unstopped.” Not all deaf could hear, just some were cured
(6) “Then will the lame leap like a deer,”
(7) “and the mute tongue shout for joy.” I am not sure about that either.
(8) “Water will gush forth in the wilderness”
(9) “and streams in the desert.”

 

[STT]

The death opens the gates. “We may see heaven opened to us, when we perceive the Spirit descending and working upon us. God’s good work in us, is sure evidence of his good will towards us, and preparations for us.” - from Matthew Henry’s commentary on Jesus seeing heaven being torn open (Mark 1:10).

Why we have to wait until our death?

Some say it was the agony of being crucified, others that it was the weight of our sins. Others say Jesus is using Psalm 22 as a prophecy: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? … I am poured out like water … people stare and gloat over me … But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me … He has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one … future generations will be told about the Lord”.

And future generations were told.

Why He doubted? Why He ask for help? He is God.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok lets see what part of signs didn’t happen:

(1) “he will come with vengeance;”
(2) “with divine retribution”
(3) "he will come to save you.”
(4) “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened” Not all blinds could see, just some were cured.
(5) “and the ears of the deaf unstopped.” Not all deaf could hear, just some were cured
(6) “Then will the lame leap like a deer,”
(7) “and the mute tongue shout for joy.” I am not sure about that either.
(8) “Water will gush forth in the wilderness”
(9) “and streams in the desert.”

Ok. But you may have to amend your statement that “none” of it happened.

As for the rest of it, well, we don’t read the Scriptures with a fundamentalist lens.

If you come to a Catholic forum, you should present the Scriptures the way Catholics understand it…

 

[Aloysium]

Ok lets see what part of signs didn’t happen:

(1) “he will come with vengeance;”
(2) “with divine retribution”
(3) "he will come to save you.”
(4) “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened” Not all blinds could see, just some were cured.
(5) “and the ears of the deaf unstopped.” Not all deaf could hear, just some were cured
(6) “Then will the lame leap like a deer,”
(7) “and the mute tongue shout for joy.” I am not sure about that either.
(8) “Water will gush forth in the wilderness”
(9) “and streams in the desert.”

Read Neonblue’s post if you haven’t. It pretty much describes all these things.