Burden of Proof - Part 2

[Peter_Plato]

Ok lets see what part of signs didn’t happen:

(1) “he will come with vengeance;”
(2) “with divine retribution”
(3) "he will come to save you.”
(4) “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened” Not all blinds could see, just some were cured.

It isn’t necessarily true that Jesus was speaking of physical blindness. There is a more crucial kind of blindness, and deafness, and lameness, and muteness.

Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. (John 9)

So, you are correct that “Not all blinds could see” because some who think they can see “may become blind.”

Perhaps this is what “he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution” means?

 

[inocente]

Ok lets see what part of signs didn’t happen:

(1) “he will come with vengeance;”
(2) “with divine retribution”
(3) "he will come to save you.”
(4) “Then will the eyes of the blind be opened” Not all blinds could see, just some were cured.
(5) “and the ears of the deaf unstopped.” Not all deaf could hear, just some were cured
(6) “Then will the lame leap like a deer,”
(7) “and the mute tongue shout for joy.” I am not sure about that either.
(8) “Water will gush forth in the wilderness”
(9) “and streams in the desert.”

All this is spiritual, about a spiritual rescue mission. He will bring vengeance on what stops you seeing the way forward, on what stops you moving forward, make the way safe, make a highway to enter Zion. “But only the redeemed will walk there”.

Why we have to wait until our death?

As I said, you don’t.

Jesus also speaks of the spiritual rescue mission: “I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” - John 10

Why He doubted? Why He ask for help? He is God.

I told you.

 

[neonblue]

Thanks for this beautiful testimony of God’s saving grace. Although mine was not as dramatic as yours, I too was at the end of my rope and feeling how meaningless life seemed to be, when I realized that God was the only one who could save me. And like you, I called out to him and he was there, and since then I do not feel alone or without meaning.

It’s hard to explain to a person who has turned his back on God how real and easy his presence is. God is no burden!

Some people question me about my experience and asked me “Why was your experience so dramatic and others not”. I wondered about that for awhile and then one day I picked up Matthew Henry’s “Commentary On The Bible” and its something he said in one passage that pretty much put it in perspective for me. God is like a Physician he treats the disease according to its severity: the greater the sickness the greater is the healing: the greater the conflict or distress the greater is the peace: the greater the adversity the greater is the consolation: the greater the temptation the greater is the Grace.
I read Nicky Cruz’s book “Run Baby Run” and his experience was quite dramatic.
As for those who turned their backs on God I can only quote what Jesus said in Matthew Chap. 13 verses 3 to 23:
3And he spoke many things to them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5Some fell on stony places, where they had not much earth: and immediately they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundred times, some sixty times, some thirty times. 9Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
18Hear you therefore the parable of the sower. 19When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; 21Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[STT]

Read Neonblue’s post if you haven’t. It pretty much describes all these things.

We are talking about the fact whether Jesus was the one.

 

[STT]

It isn’t necessarily true that Jesus was speaking of physical blindness. There is a more crucial kind of blindness, and deafness, and lameness, and muteness.

That might be the case.

Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard this, and they said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. (John 9)

I see. But how about other signs?

So, you are correct that “Not all blinds could see” because some who think they can see “may become blind.”

Perhaps this is what “he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution” means?

This is the part which is most confusing: He will come with vengeance; with divine retribution.

 

[Peter_Plato]

This is the part which is most confusing: He will come with vengeance; with divine retribution.

Let’s call it justice in the sense of merited outcome.

If you say to me, open your eyes or you will run into that low hanging branch, and I insist upon keeping my eyes shut tight, divine retribution or vengeance in the sense of just desserts is to be expected when I gouge my head open on the branch, no?

Or do you think God ought to protect me from my own willful self?

 

[neonblue]

We are talking about the fact whether Jesus was the one.

In the beginning was the Word (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 1).
And the Word was made flesh (chap. 1 verse 14)
Christ was the Word “born of the Holy Spirit” (gospel of Matthew chap. 1 verse 18 & 20).
The only begotten Son of God (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 18 and 1st letter of John chap.4 verse 9).
Why was he born in the womb of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit: the only begotten Son of God?
To Save Mankind from Sin (Timothy chap.1 verse 15 and Titus chap.2 verse 14).
Because only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish (1 Peter chap.1 verse 19) is able to save mankind from “the law of sin and death”(Romans chap.8 verse 2).
In sin there is a law meaning an authority a power “in the flesh” (Romans chap.8 verse 3). Sinful human nature is the flesh and that law that authority compels man to sin. Its a part of his sinful nature.
But upon the Cross the only begotten Son of God born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish “condemned sin in the flesh”. (Romans chap 8 verse 3).
Condemned meaning He executed Judgement upon the law the authority of sin in the flesh (sinful human nature)
Upon that Cross He “condemned executed judgement upon the authority of sin in man to destroy its power”.
So that mankind can be free by another law another authority more potent more powerful than the authority of sin. ( the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus). Romans chap. 8 verse 2.
So that we can be “conformed to the image of His Son” (Romans chap. 8 verse 29).
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6: Verse 23. (Spiritual Death)
Because God is holy, He must judge sin.
Imagine a courtroom scene in which we are on trial for our sins and God is the judge. Our sins against God are capital crimes. God Himself is our judge, and according to divine law our crimes deserve the death penalty. Death, in a spiritual sense, means eternal separation from God in unending torment.
God must deal with the injustice of sin. Suppose a criminal should come before a judge and that judge would simply excuse a crime of murder, rape, or theft simply because the judge loved the criminal. What would society think of such a judge?
So in man the “the wages of sin is death”.
Sin cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Into the Resurrection of Life.
Romans chap.3 verse 23: “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”.
Only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot or blemish can enter into the Kingdom of God.
Upon that Cross Christ the only begotten Son of God passed from death onto the Resurrection of Life.
He said in the gospel of John chap.11 verse 25: “I am the Resurrection and the Life”.
Christ was risen from the death of the cross and became the first into the Resurrection (1 Corinthians chap. 15 verses 20 and 23).
And having passed from death onto life (being born again: gospel of John chap.3 verse 3) we follow Him into the Resurrection of Life.
Gospel of John chap.5 verse 29: “They that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life”.
Philippians chap.3 verse 10 the Apostle Paul said “That I may know Him and the Power of His resurrection”.
In God’s Wisdom the sacrifice and death of His only begotten Son was the only solution to the saving of mankind from the authority of sin.
In Hebrews chap.4 verse 15 it is said He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities and was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.
In Hebrews chap.5 verse 8 it is said He learned obedience by the things which he suffered and verse 9 And being made perfect He became the Author of Eternal Salvation.
And In Hebrews chap.9 verse 26 it is said he put away sin(destroyed its authority in man) by the sacrifice of Himself.
Since that sacrifice was and is most pleasing and acceptable to God in His Wisdom then we must present ourselves as a "living sacrifice.
In Romans chap.12 verse 1 the Apostle Paul said “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service”.
(verse 2) “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God”.

 

[tonyrey]

In the beginning was the Word (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 1).
And the Word was made flesh (chap. 1 verse 14)
Christ was the Word “born of the Holy Spirit” (gospel of Matthew chap. 1 verse 18 & 20).
The only begotten Son of God (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 18 and 1st letter of John chap.4 verse 9).
Why was he born in the womb of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit: the only begotten Son of God?
To Save Mankind from Sin (Timothy chap.1 verse 15 and Titus chap.2 verse 14).
Because only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish (1 Peter chap.1 verse 19) is able to save mankind from “the law of sin and death”(Romans chap.8 verse 2).
In sin there is a law meaning an authority a power “in the flesh” (Romans chap.8 verse 3). Sinful human nature is the flesh and that law that authority compels man to sin. Its a part of his sinful nature.
But upon the Cross the only begotten Son of God born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish “condemned sin in the flesh”. (Romans chap 8 verse 3).
Condemned meaning He executed Judgement upon the law the authority of sin in the flesh (sinful human nature)
Upon that Cross He “condemned executed judgement upon the authority of sin in man to destroy its power”.
So that mankind can be free by another law another authority more potent more powerful than the authority of sin. ( the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus). Romans chap. 8 verse 2.
So that we can be “conformed to the image of His Son” (Romans chap. 8 verse 29).
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6: Verse 23. (Spiritual Death)
Because God is holy, He must judge sin.
Imagine a courtroom scene in which we are on trial for our sins and God is the judge. Our sins against God are capital crimes. God Himself is our judge, and according to divine law our crimes deserve the death penalty. Death, in a spiritual sense, means eternal separation from God in unending torment.
God must deal with the injustice of sin. Suppose a criminal should come before a judge and that judge would simply excuse a crime of murder, rape, or theft simply because the judge loved the criminal. What would society think of such a judge?
So in man the “the wages of sin is death”.
Sin cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Into the Resurrection of Life.
Romans chap.3 verse 23: “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”.
Only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot or blemish can enter into the Kingdom of God.
Upon that Cross Christ the only begotten Son of God passed from death onto the Resurrection of Life.
He said in the gospel of John chap.11 verse 25: “I am the Resurrection and the Life”.
Christ was risen from the death of the cross and became the first into the Resurrection (1 Corinthians chap. 15 verses 20 and 23).
And having passed from death onto life (being born again: gospel of John chap.3 verse 3) we follow Him into the Resurrection of Life.
Gospel of John chap.5 verse 29: “They that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life”.
Philippians chap.3 verse 10 the Apostle Paul said “That I may know Him and the Power of His resurrection”.
In God’s Wisdom the sacrifice and death of His only begotten Son was the only solution to the saving of mankind from the authority of sin.
In Hebrews chap.4 verse 15 it is said He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities and was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.
In Hebrews chap.5 verse 8 it is said He learned obedience by the things which he suffered and verse 9 And being made perfect He became the Author of Eternal Salvation.
And In Hebrews chap.9 verse 26 it is said he put away sin(destroyed its authority in man) by the sacrifice of Himself.
Since that sacrifice was and is most pleasing and acceptable to God in His Wisdom then we must present ourselves as a "living sacrifice.
In Romans chap.12 verse 1 the Apostle Paul said “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service”.
(verse 2) “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God”.

 

[tonyrey]

Everyone is a believer in something! The onus is therefore on** all of us **to justify our interpretation of reality.

 

[neonblue]

Everyone is a believer in something! The onus is therefore on** all of us **to justify our interpretation of reality.

No event in the history of the world whether it be the past, the present day or the future to come will ever compare to what Christ did upon that Cross for mankind. It is the most significant event that has ever happened in the history of the world.
These two verses in Scripture: Romans 1:16 Paul said that the Gospel of Christ “it is the Power of God unto Salvation” and what Christ did upon the Cross to save mankind from the “law of sin and death” Romans 8: verse 2 these two verses are the most “valuable knowledge” upon the earth and every “other knowledge, belief or experience” that a person will live by will perish with that person because there’s no eternal truth in it.

 

[neonblue]

Everyone is a believer in something! The onus is therefore on** all of us **to justify our interpretation of reality.

Being “led by the Holy Spirit” is the interpretation of reality.
James Chap. 1:Verse 5: If any of you lack wisdom , let him ask of God , that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him.
Every other interpretation of the Bible that a person perceives as reality is just their “opinion”. If they don’t “ask God for wisdom” then they’re not “led by the Holy Spirit”.
Every “other knowledge, belief or experience” that a person will live by will perish with that person because there’s no eternal truth in it.

 

[tonyrey]

No event in the history of the world whether it be the past, the present day or the future to come will ever compare to what Christ did upon that Cross for mankind. It is the most significant event that has ever happened in the history of the world.
These two verses in Scripture: Romans 1:16 Paul said that the Gospel of Christ “it is the Power of God unto Salvation” and what Christ did upon the Cross to save mankind from the “law of sin and death” Romans 8: verse 2 these two verses are the most “valuable knowledge” upon the earth and every “other knowledge, belief or experience” that a person will live by will perish with that person because there’s no eternal truth in it.

I agree. Atheists cannot single out a comparable event in the history of the world which reveals love and compassion for everyone…

 

[neonblue]

I agree. Atheists cannot single out a comparable event in the history of the world which reveals love and compassion for everyone…

I don’t understand Atheists why do they want to deny the existence of God?
Are they afraid that they would be troubled in their own conscience of sin?
Perhaps they don’t want that spiritual experience with Him because that experience would be too much of a reality, it would frighten them because then they would know in their own hearts that they need salvation.

 

[Tomdstone]

I don’t understand Atheists why do they want to deny the existence of God?

I am not sure that atheists want to deny the existence of God. From what I understand, it is a question of whether they believe the evidence.

 

[STT]

In the beginning was the Word (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 1).
And the Word was made flesh (chap. 1 verse 14)
Christ was the Word “born of the Holy Spirit” (gospel of Matthew chap. 1 verse 18 & 20).
The only begotten Son of God (gospel of John chap. 1 verse 18 and 1st letter of John chap.4 verse 9).
Why was he born in the womb of a virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit: the only begotten Son of God?
To Save Mankind from Sin (Timothy chap.1 verse 15 and Titus chap.2 verse 14).
Because only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish (1 Peter chap.1 verse 19) is able to save mankind from “the law of sin and death”(Romans chap.8 verse 2).
In sin there is a law meaning an authority a power “in the flesh” (Romans chap.8 verse 3). Sinful human nature is the flesh and that law that authority compels man to sin. Its a part of his sinful nature.
But upon the Cross the only begotten Son of God born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot without blemish “condemned sin in the flesh”. (Romans chap 8 verse 3).
Condemned meaning He executed Judgement upon the law the authority of sin in the flesh (sinful human nature)
Upon that Cross He “condemned executed judgement upon the authority of sin in man to destroy its power”.
So that mankind can be free by another law another authority more potent more powerful than the authority of sin. ( the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus). Romans chap. 8 verse 2.
So that we can be “conformed to the image of His Son” (Romans chap. 8 verse 29).
For the wages of sin is death. Romans 6: Verse 23. (Spiritual Death)
Because God is holy, He must judge sin.
Imagine a courtroom scene in which we are on trial for our sins and God is the judge. Our sins against God are capital crimes. God Himself is our judge, and according to divine law our crimes deserve the death penalty. Death, in a spiritual sense, means eternal separation from God in unending torment.
God must deal with the injustice of sin. Suppose a criminal should come before a judge and that judge would simply excuse a crime of murder, rape, or theft simply because the judge loved the criminal. What would society think of such a judge?
So in man the “the wages of sin is death”.
Sin cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Into the Resurrection of Life.
Romans chap.3 verse 23: “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”.
Only Someone born of the Holy Spirit without sin without spot or blemish can enter into the Kingdom of God.
Upon that Cross Christ the only begotten Son of God passed from death onto the Resurrection of Life.
He said in the gospel of John chap.11 verse 25: “I am the Resurrection and the Life”.
Christ was risen from the death of the cross and became the first into the Resurrection (1 Corinthians chap. 15 verses 20 and 23).
And having passed from death onto life (being born again: gospel of John chap.3 verse 3) we follow Him into the Resurrection of Life.
Gospel of John chap.5 verse 29: “They that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life”.
Philippians chap.3 verse 10 the Apostle Paul said “That I may know Him and the Power of His resurrection”.
In God’s Wisdom the sacrifice and death of His only begotten Son was the only solution to the saving of mankind from the authority of sin.
In Hebrews chap.4 verse 15 it is said He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities and was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.
In Hebrews chap.5 verse 8 it is said He learned obedience by the things which he suffered and verse 9 And being made perfect He became the Author of Eternal Salvation.
And In Hebrews chap.9 verse 26 it is said he put away sin(destroyed its authority in man) by the sacrifice of Himself.
Since that sacrifice was and is most pleasing and acceptable to God in His Wisdom then we must present ourselves as a "living sacrifice.
In Romans chap.12 verse 1 the Apostle Paul said “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service”.
(verse 2) “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God”.

This is a wall of words. Could you please be more specific and quote a few verses from old Testament so we can discuss them (the one which you think are most important one)?

 

[tonyrey]

This is a wall of words. Could you please be more specific and quote a few verses from old Testament so we can discuss them (the one which you think are most important one)?

The so-called " wall of words" is a list of facts. Negativity leads nowhere…

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t understand Atheists why do they want to deny the existence of God?
Are they afraid that they would be troubled in their own conscience of sin?
Perhaps they don’t want that spiritual experience with Him because that experience would be too much of a reality, it would frighten them because then they would know in their own hearts that they need salvation.

As Tom has pointed out, atheists don’t necessarily want to deny the existence of God. Many have genuine problems in understanding why He allows so much evil in the world.

 

[Bradski]

As Tom has pointed out, atheists don’t necessarily want to deny the existence of God. Many have genuine problems in understanding why He allows so much evil in the world.

That’s like saying that I have a genuine problem in understanding how Santa can visit so many children in one night. I don’t believe in Santa. The problem is one for those who do believe in him to explain.

 

[neonblue]

As Tom has pointed out, atheists don’t necessarily want to deny the existence of God. Many have genuine problems in understanding why He allows so much evil in the world.

Jesus prophesied the forthcoming evil of this world: the wars, hunger,suffering and death: famines, diseases, earthquakes to the apostles.
Matthew 24:. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
People fail to see all the “Good” in the world because the “Media” reports very little of it. We’re bombarded with the newspapers, radio, television, the internet so people on the most part read,hear and see evil, suffering and death.
I myself watch very little of it. In my little corner of the world I read, hear and see a lot of good, the catholic charismatic prayer meetings, the pentecostal churches and their prayer meetings and other churches that I visited. I seen people in these churches and prayer meetings burdened and suffering, I seen the hands of good christian people laid on them, praying for them. I seen the joy, the peace and the healing in the faces of the burdened and the suffering, I seen them being released from the burdens and sufferings of this life, I seen them praise God for His mercy and compassion. There were tears in my eyes just looking at it and I stood there in wonder with gladness in my heart in knowing that there is such a merciful and compassionate God. It overwhelms me.
And there’s millions of people that have seen what I seen and the mercy and compassion of God continues even to this day.
I go out in the streets and my place of work and I see the kindness that people do for other people. Very little of this is reported by the media.

 

[Peter_Plato]

That’s like saying that I have a genuine problem in understanding how Santa can visit so many children in one night. I don’t believe in Santa. The problem is one for those who do believe in him to explain.

Well this is not exactly a parallel example. After all, there are presents that do get visited upon “so many children in one night” that do need to be explained. The reason the “genuine problem” exists for those who believe in Santa is that there are alternative competing explanations which are more compelling.

The reason the example of Santa is not parallel is because so many presents do exist around us – i.e., real world existents – that do not have many alternative explanations. Something from nothing, compounded by Standard Big Bang cosmology doesn’t permit all that many competing explanations.

The one that gets me is my own existence as the loci of subjective experience. Where does the “I” come from relying on purely materialistic explanations? None are very compelling IMHO. So we’re still left with lots of presents under the tree and no good competing explanations – I mean if the tree is taken as the universe including the plethora of things including my “self” existing under it.