Burden of Proof - Part 2

[RCinMT]

That’s like saying that I have a genuine problem in understanding how Santa can visit so many children in one night. I don’t believe in Santa. The problem is one for those who do believe in him to explain.

I don’t recall the Bible ever making claims that there’s no evil; To wit, biblical accounts of evil waste no time beginning in the book of Genesis.

So when an atheist says the problem is for those who do believe to explain, my reply would be that many who believe don’t have a problem with evil and therefore don’t need to explain it to anybody. Anybody, that is, except atheists who are generally the people who demand an explanation because they view it as a problem.

 

[tonyrey]

Well this is not exactly a parallel example. After all, there are presents that do get visited upon “so many children in one night” that do need to be explained. The reason the “genuine problem” exists for those who believe in Santa is that there are alternative competing explanations which are more compelling.

The reason the example of Santa is not parallel is because so many presents do exist around us – i.e., real world existents – that do not have many alternative explanations. Something from nothing, compounded by Standard Big Bang cosmology doesn’t permit all that many competing explanations.

The one that gets me is my own existence as the loci of subjective experience. Where does the “I” come from relying on purely materialistic explanations? None are very compelling IMHO. So we’re still left with lots of presents under the tree and no good competing explanations – I mean if the tree is taken as the universe including the plethora of things including my “self” existing under it.

Many thanks for answering on my behalf, Peter. Atheists seem to believe no explanation is better than one which accounts for the most valuable aspects of life simply because it is associated with religion!

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus prophesied the forthcoming evil of this world: the wars, hunger,suffering and death: famines, diseases, earthquakes to the apostles.
Matthew 24:. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
People fail to see all the “Good” in the world because the “Media” reports very little of it. We’re bombarded with the newspapers, radio, television, the internet so people on the most part read,hear and see evil, suffering and death.
I myself watch very little of it. In my little corner of the world I read, hear and see a lot of good, the catholic charismatic prayer meetings, the pentecostal churches and their prayer meetings and other churches that I visited. I seen people in these churches and prayer meetings burdened and suffering, I seen the hands of good christian people laid on them, praying for them. I seen the joy, the peace and the healing in the faces of the burdened and the suffering, I seen them being released from the burdens and sufferings of this life, I seen them praise God for His mercy and compassion. There were tears in my eyes just looking at it and I stood there in wonder with gladness in my heart in knowing that there is such a merciful and compassionate God. It overwhelms me.
And there’s millions of people that have seen what I seen and the mercy and compassion of God continues even to this day.
I go out in the streets and my place of work and I see the kindness that people do for other people. Very little of this is reported by the media.

That is because good news is rarely sensational. So we are left with the impression that the world is a terrible place:

“Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!”

1 Corinthians 15:32

 

[Bradski]

So when an atheist says the problem is for those who do believe to explain, my reply would be that many who believe don’t have a problem with evil and therefore don’t need to explain it to anybody.

You’re kidding, right? It’s the biggest problem facing anyone who believes in a personal God. Just Google ‘Problem of evil’ and you’ll get something just this side of 20 million hits. But maybe they are all atheists trying to point it out to the legions of Christians who don’t understand the argument.

As Peter Kreeft says, in regard to Christians: ‘The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world’. peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

And to be absolutely clear, the problem of evil simply does not exist as far as I am concerned. Because, obviously, one needs to believe in an all-loving God for the problem to exist. And, equally obviously, I don’t.

 

[Bradski]

The reason the example of Santa is not parallel is because so many presents do exist around us – i.e., real world existents – that do not have many alternative explanations. Something from nothing, compounded by Standard Big Bang cosmology doesn’t permit all that many competing explanations.

I don’t want to break this to you so abruptly. But all the presents you received when you were a kid? There actually was another reason for them being there on Xmas morning. You just had been told it was Santa and it seemed the best explanation.

I’m sure your parents told you - if you are good, you will be rewarded. Sound familiar…?

 

[PRmerger]

You’re kidding, right? It’s the biggest problem facing anyone who believes in a personal God. Just Google ‘Problem of evil’ and you’ll get something just this side of 20 million hits. But maybe they are all atheists trying to point it out to the legions of Christians who don’t understand the argument.

As Peter Kreeft says, in regard to Christians: ‘The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world’. peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

And to be absolutely clear, the problem of evil simply does not exist as far as I am concerned. Because, obviously, one needs to believe in an all-loving God for the problem to exist. And, equally obviously, I don’t.

This is true. It’s a problem for Believers.

But, despite your protests, it’s also a problem for Atheists.

You have no answer for your little son who says, “Daddy, why did my cousin get cancer and die? What’s the answer to his suffering?”

Well, perhaps you have an answer: “There is no point to it, son. It’s all rather lousy. All of us suffer, and it has no meaning. Sometimes, bad people win”.

So, yeah, that’s a really big problem for you, too.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sure your parents told you - if you are good, you will be rewarded. Sound familiar…?

Tell me if this sounds familiar: try this…it feels great. You have no rules. No one to tell you you can’t do this:

http://drugabuse.com/wp-content/upl...edle_in_spoon.jpg.pagespeed.ic.ScT7AkQgYQ.jpg

Sound familiar?

 

[Bradski]

Well, perhaps you have an answer: “There is no point to it, son. It’s all rather lousy. All of us suffer, and it has no meaning. Sometimes, bad people win”.

Well, that’s what I told my kids when they were growing up. And I’m pretty certain that that’s what they’ll be telling theirs as well. That sometimes, whether you believe in God or not, or whether He exists or not, whether you are good or not, whether you deserve it or not, sometimes bad things happen.

They don’t believe in God so it’s not a problem for them. They have learned to take the rough with the smooth.

I also told them about drugs. That they can make you feel great. But to treat them with care. Be responsible. To yourself as well as others.

Again, it’s not a problem for them.

 

[tonyrey]

Well, that’s what I told my kids when they were growing up. And I’m pretty certain that that’s what they’ll be telling theirs as well. That sometimes, whether you believe in God or not, or whether He exists or not, whether you are good or not, whether you deserve it or not, sometimes bad things happen.

They don’t believe in God so it’s not a problem for them. They have learned to take the rough with the smooth.

I also told them about drugs. That they can make you feel great. But to treat them with care. Be responsible. To yourself as well as others.

Again, it’s not a problem for them.

On the whole it’s easy enough to take the rough with the smooth when you’re young but as you get older you either become more cynical or more idealistic. Sooner or later the prospect of death makes us wonder what’s the point of being alive if it leads to the extinction of everyone and everything we seek and value. It takes a very insensitive person not to feel regret and even rebellious against such an unjust state of affairs. “Why the hell were we born if it all leads to nothing?” Is life really “a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”?

The very fact that we can understand the significance of such a disaster implies that life isn’t insignificant! Pessimism doesn’t correspond to the way a normal person lives. For the most part we live in hope not fear and positively rather than negatively. Death isn’t a curse but a blessing because it puts an end to injustice and liberates us from evil. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the only form of existence and everything is fundamentally absurd and meaningless. To live in a scientific box which excludes everything we love and cherish is an invitation to insanity! As so often Shakespeare expresses the truth about life: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”…

 

[Peter_Plato]

I don’t want to break this to you so abruptly. **But all the presents you received when you were a kid? **There actually was another reason for them being there on Xmas morning. You just had been told it was Santa and it seemed the best explanation.

I’m sure your parents told you - if you are good, you will be rewarded. Sound familiar…?

Huh?

You may want to reread my post. If it doesn’t make sense to you, I’ll take another stab at it. Your answer seems to not address anything I said.

In fact, your answer doesn’t seem to make sense on its own even without reference to what I wrote.

How is the following even a question?

But all the presents you received when you were a kid?

 

[tonyrey]

You’re kidding, right? It’s the biggest problem facing anyone who believes in a personal God. Just Google ‘Problem of evil’ and you’ll get something just this side of 20 million hits. But maybe they are all atheists trying to point it out to the legions of Christians who don’t understand the argument.

As Peter Kreeft says, in regard to Christians: ‘The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world’. peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

And to be absolutely clear, the problem of evil simply does not exist as far as I am concerned. Because, obviously, one needs to believe in an all-loving God for the problem to exist. And, equally obviously, I don’t.

The problem of evil certainly does exist when we become victims of injustice and suffer because of others’ greed, selfishness and lust for power. We don’t invent that belief and it is the most serious problem for the atheist. If we don’t invent evil how does it originate? In a Godless, meaningless world there’s no reason why there should be any difference between good and evil. If nothing makes sense why make one exception to the rule? The problem of evil may not exist as far as we are concerned **now ** but there’s no guarantee we shall always be so fortunate - unlike so many poor devils in the world and they know what it really means. It’s not just a word but a harsh fact when they see their children die…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The problem of evil certainly does exist when we become victims of injustice and suffer because of others’ greed, selfishness and lust for power. We don’t invent that belief and it is the most serious problem for the atheist. If we don’t invent evil how does it originate? In a Godless, meaningless world there’s no reason why there should be any difference between good and evil. If nothing makes sense why make one exception to the rule? The problem of evil may not exist as far as we are concerned **now ** but there’s no guarantee we shall always be so fortunate - unlike so many poor devils in the world and they know what it really means. It’s not just a word but a harsh fact when they see their children die…

So true. I had a sister who kept telling me there is no evil - some sort of Zen thing I guess. There is evil, oh boy, is there ever! Satan is alive and well. Look around and smell the brimstone!!

 

[RCinMT]

This is true. It’s a problem for Believers.

But, despite your protests, it’s also a problem for Atheists.

You have no answer for your little son who says, “Daddy, why did my cousin get cancer and die? What’s the answer to his suffering?”

Well, perhaps you have an answer: “There is no point to it, son. It’s all rather lousy. All of us suffer, and it has no meaning. Sometimes, bad people win”.

So, yeah, that’s a really big problem for you, too.

To be honest, it’s not a problem for me and I am certainly a believer. I don’t ponder why children die or people get cancer or why there’s war: we live in a fallen world, I am not wise enough (indeed, I am not wise at all) to understand all ends–I trust in God.

Quite frankly, Christ was tried and sentenced to an incredibly painful and cruel death. Although it has no value as a theological book, Bill O’Reilly’s Killing Jesus includes a description of what Christ suffered leading up to and on Calvary. The description alone makes the book worth reading: I have never ceased to think about it whenever I pray the sorrowful mysteries, walk into church nor sign myself.

No, I don’t contend with evil suffering because I know God was willing to and did submit to a near unfathomable suffering that was entirely unjust.

 

[neonblue]

That is because good news is rarely sensational. So we are left with the impression that the world is a terrible place:

1 Corinthians 15:32

Well atheists will not accept what Jesus said in Matthew 24 verse 6: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet… 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
So according to these verses its His will that wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes continue until the gospel is preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations.
Atheists simply will not accept the Will of God.
Will they accept all the “Good” that transpires in this world, I don’t think so, Why?
They will not venture inside the churches to take note of the mercy and compassion of God among the millions of people.
They may stubbornly continue to say where is the evidence to support our Faith? They won’t venture inside the churches to see that evidence.
I look in the faces of unbelievers that were simply “shook up” by what transpire inside of a church. Their faces were a mixture of fear, of wonder and conviction of sin and their heads were hung down looking at the floor. All they ever knew was the reality of their own lives until they ventured inside of a church and then they experience a new reality, a spiritual reality, the reality of God. Some came forth to be saved others did not, but a atheist who doesn’t believe in the existence of God because they want to see the “evidence” would they venture inside of a church to see the “evidence”.

 

[STT]

Well atheists will not accept what Jesus said in Matthew 24 verse 6: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet… 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come…

Wasn’t nicer that the end comes earlier so people don’t experience such a horrific situation? It is all up to God.

 

[neonblue]

Wasn’t nicer that the end comes earlier so people don’t experience such a horrific situation? It is all up to God.

I don’t know if all the nations have been reached with the preaching of the gospel.
Maybe those who have knowledge of that would know.

 

[STT]

I don’t know if all the nations have been reached with the preaching of the gospel.
Maybe those who have knowledge of that would know.

It doesn’t really matter. Does it?

 

[neonblue]

It doesn’t really matter. Does it?

God gives me a feeling of "peace’ about it all. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:33: For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
I know in my own heart that much of the evil in this world ,the evil done to people, many of those people will be drawn by a urgency in their hearts to come to God. And those who meet their deaths by the evil intentions of men in the war torn countries will be like the “thief upon the cross”.

So the atheists in their stubbornness will continue to rant on about God’s Will in letting the evil to continue but it doesn’t matter because God’s mercy is as wide as the universe he created.

 

[Tomdstone]

As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:33: For God is not the author of confusion but of peace,…

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Matthew 10:34

 

[STT]

God gives me a feeling of "peace’ about it all. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:33: For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
I know in my own heart that much of the evil in this world ,the evil done to people, many of those people will be drawn by a urgency in their hearts to come to God. And those who meet their deaths by the evil intentions of men in the war torn countries will be like the “thief upon the cross”.

So the atheists in their stubbornness will continue to rant on about God’s Will in letting the evil to continue but it doesn’t matter because God’s mercy is as wide as the universe he created.

You didn’t get my point. I meant that the world will fall in disasters and all nations go to wars as it is promised even if they all convert to Christianity!?