Burden of Proof - Part 2

[neonblue]

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Matthew 10:34

You omitted the rest of the passage
Matthew 10:35 to 39
35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The meaning(look it up on the internet)
A man will become a born again christian within his own family and then perhaps members of his own family will be against it and perhaps the man will correct the wrong that they do and their will be argument. So the sword is not a real sword, in a spiritual sense it is a spiritual sword that will "sever’ the ties between the christian man and the unbelievers of his family.

 

[neonblue]

You omitted the rest of the passage
Matthew 10:35 to 39
35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The meaning(look it up on the internet)
A man will become a born again christian within his own family and then perhaps members of his own family will be against it and perhaps the man will correct the wrong that they do and their will be argument. So the sword is not a real sword, in a spiritual sense it is a spiritual sword that will "sever’ the ties between the christian man and the unbelievers of his family.

Are there atheists on this forum?

 

[neonblue]

You didn’t get my point. I meant that the world will fall in disasters and all nations go to wars as it is promised even if they all convert to Christianity!?

I’m sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[STT]

I’m sorry if I misunderstood you.

No problem. And what is your answer to my question?

 

[neonblue]

No problem. And what is your answer to my question?

When all the nations are reach by the preaching of the gospel you are saying the disasters will still continue and the wars with the nations will still continue.

 

[Peter_Plato]

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Matthew 10:34

Jesus also said, “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.”

I suppose that if you think dying by the sword is the absolute worst thing that could happen to you, you would oppose “bringing” a sword or living by the sword, in principle.

I don’t think dying by the sword is the worst possible thing. Dying a coward’s death, afraid to stand up for anything that is right would be the worst thing, IMHO.

 

[Peter_Plato]

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Matthew 10:34

Put another way: peace will not come by permitting evil to triumph. Evil will be defeated.

Jesus is the Truth, the one (the sword) who will divide light from darkness so that each will be revealed for what they are. Those who choose darkness rather than light will be held accountable. Recall the just or divine retribution we discussed earlier.

 

[neonblue]

No problem. And what is your answer to my question?

Oh I see what you’re saying even if they all convert to Christianity the world will fall in disasters and the nations go to wars as prophesied until the end time.
Now that’s not possible is it? This forum talks about atheists not believing in the existence of God because they want to see the evidence.

 

[neonblue]

Jesus also said, “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.”

I suppose that if you think dying by the sword is the absolute worst thing that could happen to you, you would oppose “bringing” a sword or living by the sword, in principle.

I don’t think dying by the sword is the worst possible thing. Dying a coward’s death, afraid to stand up for anything that is right would be the worst thing, IMHO.

Read the story of Avlin C. York, One of the most decorated American fighters of WWI, he was in a terrible conflict with his faith. He doubted that he could serve both God and Country because he knew that the Bible said “Thou shalt not kill”.
He ponder the question with Major Buxton, a man who had reconciled his faith with a professional military career. Major Buxton said to him "Render unto Caesar’s the things that are Caesar’s.” We must fight for our earthly government whenever its liberties are threatened. Christians have a duty to their leaders.
But Alvin C. York was still doubtful about going to war, he ask the Major for a ten day leave and it was granted. He went home to his hometown and sought complete solitude in the mountains to pray to God. He prayed all night wrestling with his conscience and by morning he received his answer. He felt a complete peace flow through to his heart and mind and all the terrible doubt was taken from him and like Major Buxton he reconciled his faith with a military career.

 

[neonblue]

Put another way: peace will not come by permitting evil to triumph. Evil will be defeated.

Jesus is the Truth, the one (the sword) who will divide light from darkness so that each will be revealed for what they are. Those who choose darkness rather than light will be held accountable. Recall the just or divine retribution we discussed earlier.

Read the Book of Revelation.

 

[STT]

Oh I see what you’re saying even if they all convert to Christianity the world will fall in disasters and the nations go to wars as prophesied until the end time.
Now that’s not possible is it? This forum talks about atheists not believing in the existence of God because they want to see the evidence.

No, you still didn’t get my question. I mean, why nations should go to wars if they are all true Christian?

 

[neonblue]

No, you still didn’t get my question. I mean, why nations should go to wars if they are all true Christian?

Read the story of Alvin C. York, One of the most decorated American fighters of WWI, he was in a terrible conflict with his faith. He doubted that he could serve both God and Country because he knew that the Bible said “Thou shalt not kill”.
He ponder the question with Major Buxton, a man who had reconciled his faith with a professional military career. Major Buxton said to him "Render unto Caesar’s the things that are Caesar’s.” We must fight for our earthly government whenever its liberties are threatened. Christians have a duty to their leaders.
But Alvin C. York was still doubtful about going to war, he ask the Major for a ten day leave and it was granted. He went home to his hometown and sought complete solitude in the mountains to pray to God. He prayed all night wrestling with his conscience and by morning he received his answer. He felt a complete peace flow through to his heart and mind and all the terrible doubt was taken from him and like Major Buxton he reconciled his faith with a military career.

 

[STT]

Read the story of Alvin C. York, One of the most decorated American fighters of WWI, he was in a terrible conflict with his faith. He doubted that he could serve both God and Country because he knew that the Bible said “Thou shalt not kill”.
He ponder the question with Major Buxton, a man who had reconciled his faith with a professional military career. Major Buxton said to him "Render unto Caesar’s the things that are Caesar’s.” We must fight for our earthly government whenever its liberties are threatened. Christians have a duty to their leaders.
But Alvin C. York was still doubtful about going to war, he ask the Major for a ten day leave and it was granted. He went home to his hometown and sought complete solitude in the mountains to pray to God. He prayed all night wrestling with his conscience and by morning he received his answer. He felt a complete peace flow through to his heart and mind and all the terrible doubt was taken from him and like Major Buxton he reconciled his faith with a military career.

Yes, that I know. But that doesn’t answer my question. True Christian nations never go to war against each other. The question is what does happen for what was promised about wars?

 

[Peter_Plato]

No, you still didn’t get my question. I mean, why nations should go to wars if they are all true Christian?

You are assuming “true Christians” would never go to war. That is an error. The Church teaches that just wars are possible and right under certain conditions.

Are you saying a “true Christian” is one who would never oppose evil under any circumstances, but would merely permit evil to have ascendency under all circumstances?

I think a proper assessment of Christ’s teachings would disabuse you of that idea.

Think about it…

If someone were raping your child would you use force to stop them? What if they continued despite all your attempts to stop them? Would you use lethal force?

I wouldn’t suppose that Christ’s admonition to turn the other cheek means permitting evil to flourish under all circumstances. That has never been the Church’s position through history.

 

[neonblue]

Yes, that I know. But that doesn’t answer my question. True Christian nations never go to war against each other. The question is what does happen for what was promised about wars?

Now how is that possible? The enemies of true Christians are true Christians.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Yes, that I know. But that doesn’t answer my question. True Christian nations never go to war against each other. The question is what does happen for what was promised about wars?

Okay, this is a different question. The problem is with defining “true Christian” and whether the motives of both warring nations are purely Christian or something else entirely.

You need to provide an example of what you consider two “true Christian” countries going to war with each other.

Given just war theory, I would argue two Christian nations going to war with each other for truly Christian motives would be impossible. Some other element - misunderstanding, greed, cultural disagreements, etc., - would have to be present. Such a war could not be justified under truly Christian principles, even though two nominally Christian countries might war with each other.

 

[STT]

You are assuming “true Christians” would never go to war. That is an error. The Church teaches that just wars are possible and right under certain conditions.

Are you saying a “true Christian” is one who would never oppose evil under any circumstances, but would merely permit evil to have ascendency under all circumstances?

I think a proper assessment of Christ’s teachings would disabuse you of that idea.

Think about it…

If someone were raping your child would you use force to stop them? What if they continued despite all your attempts to stop them? Would you use lethal force?

I wouldn’t suppose that Christ’s admonition to turn the other cheek means permitting evil to flourish under all circumstances. That has never been the Church’s position through history.

But why nations should go to war if they are all true Christian?

 

[neonblue]

Okay, this is a different question. The problem is with defining “true Christian” and whether the motives of both warring nations are purely Christian or something else entirely.

You need to provide an example of what you consider two “true Christian” countries going to war with each other.

Given just war theory, I would argue two Christian nations going to war with each other for truly Christian motives would be impossible. Some other element - misunderstanding, greed, cultural disagreements, etc., - would have to be present. Such a war could not be justified under truly Christian principles, even though two nominally Christian countries might war with each other.

If they went to war they wouldn’t be able to justify their motives, they have the Word of God in the Scriptures. How could they justify it over the authority of God’s Word, that would be like going above the law to commit a crime and hoping to get a way with it.
So it would be impossible to justify it according to the authority of God’s Word.

 

[Peter_Plato]

But why nations should go to war if they are all true Christian?

You have to demonstrate that both sides are “true Christian” and fighting against each other on “true Christian” principles.

Give an example.

It isn’t enough to say “it’s possible.” Show that it is.

 

[Peter_Plato]

If they went to war they wouldn’t be able to justify their motives, they have the Word of God in the Scriptures. How could they justify it over the authority of God’s Word, that would be like going above the law to commit a crime and hoping to get a way with it.
So it would be impossible to justify it according to the authority of God’s Word.

That is basically correct. A Christian country could not unilaterally declare or start a war as the belligerent party. Just war theory pretty much rules that out in principle.

Just war theory is pretty much a self-defense or defense of the innocent justification. It cannot justify starting the aggression, merely warrants retaliation in response to unjust aggression.