Burden of Proof - Part 2

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Interesting point that I think relevant to Mort’s case: if we ever found strong evidence for psychokinesis, etc., then we wouldn’t consider these things supernatural anymore, but a species of the natural.
Trouble is brewing.

If you reclassify something as natural as soon as you have evidence, then supernatural is anything for which you don’t have evidence, also known as fiction.

So you need something other than evidence to distinguish supernatural from fiction, assuming of course you want to make that distinction…
 
Trouble is brewing.

If you reclassify something as natural as soon as you have evidence, then supernatural is anything for which you don’t have evidence, also known as fiction.

So you need something other than evidence to distinguish supernatural from fiction, assuming of course you want to make that distinction…
Yes, which is why I mention it: if these debates are to be meaningful, naturalists need to explain exactly what they think nature is, otherwise denying the possibility or likelihood of the supernatural is meaningless.

We can’t know what is above nature unless we know what nature is first. The natural is the background in which the miracles of God stand out.

Christi pax.
 
. . . Laurence Krauss . . .
These sorts of remarks demonstrate the reality of Science as a social activity that makes use of our God-given intellect in the service of fame, politics, economics and whatever pleasures it can bring. The beauty and awe that it inspires as it pierces into the nature of our universe, revealing the glory of its Creator, the essence of science as a gift to humanity is lost to such clownish individuals. The sad fact is that if he were true to his beliefs, he would be pursuing physics and not venturing into the realm of philosophy with such simplistic and provocative comments. Give me a break!
 
. . . We can’t know what is above nature unless we know what nature is first. The natural is the background in which the miracles of God stand out. Christi pax.
I would say that it is we who define what is nature. Is this activity in which we are participating, natural? Is it solely the neurophysiological events and the physical dimension in which they participate that we are to call natural? Are the realms of mathematics and philosophy natural? How do we get past the analogies and images to the truth? A person talking about multiverses might argue with another who sees an endless column of turtles, one on top of the other, not realizing they are saying the exact same thing. It is all one miracle. And who is this “we”, but none other than you and me?
 
The sad fact is that if he were true to his beliefs, he would be pursuing physics and not venturing into the realm of philosophy with such simplistic and provocative comments.
Not sure we can determine his beliefs from one quote, any more than Tony (post #190) is justified in claiming Penn Jillette is unbalanced on the basis on one attribution.

I found the source of the quote and don’t agree with all Krauss says, but wouldn’t think him simplistic or that he should be denied free speech - theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/has-physics-made-philosophy-and-religion-obsolete/256203/
 
Still waiting for the empiricists to explain how empiricism is empirically provable.

Sort of like waiting for the atheists to prove God does not exist.

The clock just keeps ticking away with no proof forthcoming. .
 
Still waiting for the empiricists to explain how empiricism is empirically provable.

Sort of like waiting for the atheists to prove God does not exist.

The clock just keeps ticking away with no proof forthcoming. .
Empiricists don’t make such a claim. They claim that “sense experience is the ultimate source of all our concepts and knowledge”. No one can prove the Sun will still exist tomorrow. All our experience says it will, but it cannot be proved 100% because no one knows the future. Sense experience and therefore empiricism is about likelihood, not proof.

On the other hand, rationalists claim that “there are significant ways in which our concepts and knowledge are gained independently of sense experience” but they cannot prove that.

Atheism is “Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods” and theism “Belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe” (OED). Neither is defined as needing or being able to prove their belief.
 
Still waiting for the empiricists to explain how empiricism is empirically provable.

Sort of like waiting for the atheists to prove God does not exist.

The clock just keeps ticking away with no proof forthcoming. .
Did you just stab Hume’s Fork with Hume’s Fork? :rotfl:

Christi pax.
 
. . . I . . . don’t agree with all Krauss says, but wouldn’t think him simplistic or that he should be denied free speech . . .
I have higher expectations of someone who has been blessed with a certain level of intelligence and has used them to earn a privileged level of education, especially if they have a responsibility in the education of the young and society in general.

I’m glad to hear you believe in free speech. 👍
 
Did you just stab Hume’s Fork with Hume’s Fork? :rotfl:

Christi pax.
👍

God gave us brains for many reasons: one reason is to distinguish evidence from fiction.

There is no evidence for absolute empiricism; ergo, it is likely an attractive fiction for those who cannot stand OR FEAR the idea of the supernatural. 🤷
 
I have higher expectations of someone who has been blessed with a certain level of intelligence and has used them to earn a privileged level of education, especially if they have a responsibility in the education of the young and society in general.
Richard Feynman was an excellent educator, and he also criticized philosophers who lose touch with the real world: youtube.com/watch?v=X8aWBcPVPMo

Perhaps the best educators are those who stand up for their beliefs, and the worst are those who are frightened to rock the boat.
 
👍

God gave us brains for many reasons: one reason is to distinguish evidence from fiction.

There is no evidence for absolute empiricism; ergo, it is likely an attractive fiction for those who cannot stand OR FEAR the idea of the supernatural. 🤷
It’s not FEAR that makes me reject the idea of astral projection, clairvoyance, ectoplasm, elves, ESP, fairies, Father Christmas, ghosts, poltergeists, precognition, psychokinesis, reincarnation, remote viewing, telepathy and UFOs.

It’s simply that there’s nothing to distinguish them from fiction.

You need something more than value judgments to distinguish the supernatural you believe is non-fiction from the supernatural you believe is fiction.
 
Bradski, what, to you, would be empirical evidence sufficient enough to cause you to believe in the supernatural? Can you think of a specific example?

Penn Jillette once admitted that even if he directly saw something which, to him, appeared miraculous, he would sooner go check himself into a mental health facility to see if he was insane before he would believe in the supernatural.
A regular supernatural event. Something obvious. Not a one off that could be a trick or a mental abberation on the part of the observer.

So no ‘near death’ experiences. No radios spontaneously playing. No miraculous cures. No visions of bright lights on a roof.

How about you bring inanimate objects to life. A Toy Story for every household.
 
A regular supernatural event. Something obvious. Not a one off that could be a trick or a mental abberation on the part of the observer.

So no ‘near death’ experiences. No radios spontaneously playing. No miraculous cures. No visions of bright lights on a roof.

How about you bring inanimate objects to life. A Toy Story for every household.
How about a beloved heirloom, silent for decades, playing a tune at a significant moment, and then ne’er ever again. Silence returns, inexplicably.
 
It’s not FEAR that makes me reject the idea of astral projection, clairvoyance, ectoplasm, elves, ESP, fairies, Father Christmas, ghosts, poltergeists, precognition, psychokinesis, reincarnation, remote viewing, telepathy and UFOs.

It’s simply that there’s nothing to distinguish them from fiction.

You need something more than value judgments to distinguish the supernatural you believe is non-fiction from the supernatural you believe is fiction.
If the empiricists do not fear the supernatural, why do they so fiercely fight it?

I am reminded here of Herman Merlville’s trenchant insight in Clarel.:

“Who’s gained by all the sacrifices of Europe’s revolutions? Who? The Protestant? The Liberal? I do not think it, not at all. Rome and the atheist have gained: these two shall fight it out – these two; Protestantism being retained for base of operations sly by Atheism.”
 
These sorts of remarks demonstrate the reality of Science as a social activity that makes use of our God-given intellect in the service of fame, politics, economics and whatever pleasures it can bring. The beauty and awe that it inspires as it pierces into the nature of our universe, revealing the glory of its Creator, the essence of science as a gift to humanity is lost to such clownish individuals. The sad fact is that if he were true to his beliefs, he would be pursuing physics and not venturing into the realm of philosophy with such simplistic and provocative comments. Give me a break!
In the past 100 years, say, what new knowledge has philosophy given us? Has philosophy made any progress?
 
In the past 100 years, say, what new knowledge has philosophy given us? Has philosophy made any progress?
Philosophy is the love of wisdom, not the love of “new knowledge.”

Einstein gave us “new knowledge” in his discovery of nuclear energy.

He did not and could not give us the wisdom not to use that knowledge in the form of nuclear weapons.

Only the practice of “old philosophy” could give us that wisdom. We failed to practice old philosophy, particularly the old philosophy that we should not do to others what we would not want them doing to us.
 
Einstein gave us “new knowledge” in his discovery of nuclear energy…
He did?
I thought that before Einstein, radioactive explosions had already been suspected to release huge amounts of energy. For example in the excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro and Rajasthan evidence shows atomic blasts dating back thousands of years? The knowledge of radioactive explosions, together with the possibility of a chain reaction, was all that was needed to develop the atomic bomb. I thought that Hungarian physicist Leo Szilard was awarded a British patent in 1936 for the atomic bomb, not Einstein. The Einstein equation E = mc^2 tells us that huge energy release results in a small mass decrease in the fissioning atoms, but I don’t see where this equation was ever used in the design of the atomic bomb?
 
He did?
I thought that before Einstein, radioactive explosions had already been suspected to release huge amounts of energy. For example in the excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro and Rajasthan evidence shows atomic blasts dating back thousands of years? The knowledge of radioactive explosions, together with the possibility of a chain reaction, was all that was needed to develop the atomic bomb. I thought that Hungarian physicist Leo Szilard was awarded a British patent in 1936 for the atomic bomb, not Einstein. The Einstein equation E = mc^2 tells us that huge energy release results in a small mass decrease in the fissioning atoms, but I don’t see where this equation was ever used in the design of the atomic bomb?
E=mc^2 is not used in designing a bomb. Any radioactive matter has a critical mass in which it explodes if the amount of the radio active matter is equal or larger than it, lets call the critical mass as m_c. m_c depends on many factors which I don’t recall well. What they do is that they put two radio active matters with each a mass smaller than m_c but the sum larger than m_c. Then they hit them together with another explosion and they have the nuclear explosion.
 
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