B
buzzcut
Guest
On the friendly thread at least two people mention they were"burned" by protestant pentecostalism. What does it mean, “burned”? I was thinking of going to a lecture on CCR, but I wouldn’t want to get “burned.”
- Status
T
threej_lc
Guest
Not knowing the context or intent, I won’t comment on any references to “burn out on pentacostalism.”
However, I’ve found the CCR extremely fruitful in my life. If you feel yourself called to go to a presenation on it, I would highly recommend it. We as Catholics in the charismatic movement have a gift that keeps us from ever getting burnt out: The Eucharist!
We must remember that our faith is not based on a happy-good feeling about worshiping God. At times when we find joy in worshiping God, we use it to worship him. But that does not mean we should need or expect it. We serve God by choice and will, not by feeling good about it.
The renewal #1 purpose is to bring us closer to God. That is most effectively done by bringing us closer to the church, the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. Being so tightly bound together, we are gifted that we can never “burn out.” We run on faith, not emotion. The Eucharist feeds our faith.
Josh
However, I’ve found the CCR extremely fruitful in my life. If you feel yourself called to go to a presenation on it, I would highly recommend it. We as Catholics in the charismatic movement have a gift that keeps us from ever getting burnt out: The Eucharist!
We must remember that our faith is not based on a happy-good feeling about worshiping God. At times when we find joy in worshiping God, we use it to worship him. But that does not mean we should need or expect it. We serve God by choice and will, not by feeling good about it.
The renewal #1 purpose is to bring us closer to God. That is most effectively done by bringing us closer to the church, the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist. Being so tightly bound together, we are gifted that we can never “burn out.” We run on faith, not emotion. The Eucharist feeds our faith.
Josh
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I you mean the chrismatic movement when you say CCR, then I have something to add.
I was “born again” in the Assemblies of God, a pentacostal group.
My experience with the chrismatic movement was very bad.
First, I do not see much scriptural support for their “praying in tongues” as the only gift of tongues in scripture is at Pentacost when the Apostles spoke in languages they did not know but that the people who heard them did know. No where do I see anything about a private prayer language or of the Holy Spirit praying though you.
There is also the fact that we do not all recieve the same Gifts.
I also see the “Baptism of the Spirit” to be a divisive thing. It creates second class Christians. Those who do not experience. There is only one Baptism.
Sorry for the rant.
I was “born again” in the Assemblies of God, a pentacostal group.
My experience with the chrismatic movement was very bad.
First, I do not see much scriptural support for their “praying in tongues” as the only gift of tongues in scripture is at Pentacost when the Apostles spoke in languages they did not know but that the people who heard them did know. No where do I see anything about a private prayer language or of the Holy Spirit praying though you.
There is also the fact that we do not all recieve the same Gifts.
I also see the “Baptism of the Spirit” to be a divisive thing. It creates second class Christians. Those who do not experience. There is only one Baptism.
Sorry for the rant.
B
Beebs
Guest
Total agreement
I have had two family members that were into the chrismatic movement and left the church for a Pentacostal one.
Also, my mother suffered a nevous breakdown from her involvement with CCR. She was convinced that the members were reading her mind and teamed her up with a very sickly woman and was told to draw upon each others energies.
The group was runned by laypeople and all sorts of NonCatholic theroies were taking over the group.
Sad.
Beebs
J
Jon_Jay2
Guest
Though I don’t have any family members who left for Pentacostalism, many of the parishioners in the parish I grew up in did because I guess they found a certain freedom, emotionalism there and they received some Protestant Bible teaching that I think really confused them. I remember my mom was involved but got out because of some of the abuses mentioned above.Total agreement
I have had two family members that were into the chrismatic movement and left the church for a Pentacostal one.
Also, my mother suffered a nevous breakdown from her involvement with CCR. She was convinced that the members were reading her mind and teamed her up with a very sickly woman and was told to draw upon each others energies.
The group was runned by laypeople and all sorts of NonCatholic theroies were taking over the group.
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
I don’t know much about Pentecostalism, so I can’t comment about that particular religion.
However, I took a Life in the Spirit seimnar this past Lent, was “Baptized in the Holy Spirit”, which, in my parish, is emphasized as being a RENEWAL of what we have already recieved.
There was also a seminar this summer and the priest who presents the seminar asked me to speak as both a “newbie” and as a person who recently began attending the prayer meetings.
I do not consider myself to be a charismatic. Here is the format for the prayer meetings: Singing to guitars to some very bad 70’s CCR music , and some good contempary music in improper rhythm (I usually am late due to work anyway so I spend some time in the adoration chapel to skp this part), and durig the singing some wave their hands in the air. I’m glad this works for them…it’s not my spirituality., They also sing in tongues. Also not my spirituality, but from their perspective, they are praising God. I’m all for praising God, even in gibberish. God understands the heart.
So then there is a period of quiet…reading the Bible and sharing any verses that pop out. Sometimes this sparks reflection/conversation in light of current events in the Church, etc., sometimes someone only makes notes and someone summarizes all aftet. Then someone gives a teaching on a topic or series on the basis of a book or the Catechism, something like that. Or virtues such as Humility. Then there is prayer for 30 min…the kind of free prayer…for this or that person, then ending with the Our Father, Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer. If Father is there he gives a final blessing.
It’s not very emotional at all.
And I was a group leader in the last seminar. In my group was a woman converting to the Catholic Chruch (revert) from Pentecostalism, and Father suggested the seminar and Charismatic group as being a way to bridge her Pentecostal experience with the Catholic faith. I saw her this morning after daily mass and she does seem much more comfortable in her new home. It’s really beautiful.
I’m not a Charismatic, but I think the Charismatic group thinks I am. They only recently learned that I do not speak or sing in tongues. Not my gift, and I don’t care or seek this “gift”. God has given me others.
I love the people in the group. but the singing/worship part…not interested. I find the time more useful to be praying before the Blessed Sacrament in contemplation. That is my style. The rest of the prayer meeting is very good.
I don’t think many would be “burned” by the way we do it in my parish, but I am interested to hear more about Pentecostalism in general so as to be able to help them enter the Church.
Sorry to go on, but even as someone who really doesn’t ID with the CCR, I don’t want to see the people I love to be bashed for their spirituality and purity in what they practice. Not everyone abuses the faith.
However, I took a Life in the Spirit seimnar this past Lent, was “Baptized in the Holy Spirit”, which, in my parish, is emphasized as being a RENEWAL of what we have already recieved.
There was also a seminar this summer and the priest who presents the seminar asked me to speak as both a “newbie” and as a person who recently began attending the prayer meetings.
I do not consider myself to be a charismatic. Here is the format for the prayer meetings: Singing to guitars to some very bad 70’s CCR music , and some good contempary music in improper rhythm (I usually am late due to work anyway so I spend some time in the adoration chapel to skp this part), and durig the singing some wave their hands in the air. I’m glad this works for them…it’s not my spirituality., They also sing in tongues. Also not my spirituality, but from their perspective, they are praising God. I’m all for praising God, even in gibberish. God understands the heart.
So then there is a period of quiet…reading the Bible and sharing any verses that pop out. Sometimes this sparks reflection/conversation in light of current events in the Church, etc., sometimes someone only makes notes and someone summarizes all aftet. Then someone gives a teaching on a topic or series on the basis of a book or the Catechism, something like that. Or virtues such as Humility. Then there is prayer for 30 min…the kind of free prayer…for this or that person, then ending with the Our Father, Hail Mary and St. Michael prayer. If Father is there he gives a final blessing.
It’s not very emotional at all.
And I was a group leader in the last seminar. In my group was a woman converting to the Catholic Chruch (revert) from Pentecostalism, and Father suggested the seminar and Charismatic group as being a way to bridge her Pentecostal experience with the Catholic faith. I saw her this morning after daily mass and she does seem much more comfortable in her new home. It’s really beautiful.
I’m not a Charismatic, but I think the Charismatic group thinks I am. They only recently learned that I do not speak or sing in tongues. Not my gift, and I don’t care or seek this “gift”. God has given me others.
I love the people in the group. but the singing/worship part…not interested. I find the time more useful to be praying before the Blessed Sacrament in contemplation. That is my style. The rest of the prayer meeting is very good.
I don’t think many would be “burned” by the way we do it in my parish, but I am interested to hear more about Pentecostalism in general so as to be able to help them enter the Church.
Sorry to go on, but even as someone who really doesn’t ID with the CCR, I don’t want to see the people I love to be bashed for their spirituality and purity in what they practice. Not everyone abuses the faith.
R
robertaf
Guest
Sigh…
Here we go again.
I have been in the Charismatic (not chrismatic) Renewal in the Catholic Church for over 30 years.
This is in several California Diocese and one out of state.
My experience has been just the opposite.
The Catholic Charismatics (for the greater part) have become better Catholics, more Sacramental and believe it or not, more contemplative. They are more obedient to Holy Mother Church and tend to spend more time in Adoration of the Holy Eucharist.
I have read post after post like the ones in this thread. It is very hard to remain loving and charitible and not everyone who has visited Catholic Answers has. They have sometimes been pushed too far and lost the priv to post here.
I can understand it.
However, so far, I am able to challenge what you say with respect and Christian Love. I challenge you to match your experience in the Renewal with mine. I, with the deepest respect, ask you how folks who spend hours in Praise and Worship of the Holy Trinity, and pray for a deeper experience with the Holy Spirit, and in fact, await the Spirits guidance, fall into such error?
I just went through an awesome weekend in Anaheim California, a Catholic Charismatic Conference. It was approximately my 25th weekend like this. One of the excercises we, as leaders went through was Praising the Lord (in english, not tongues), out loud for 20 minutes. Ever try it? I suggest you do. Not only does it test your spiritual endurance, it gives the Holy Spirit a wide open field to come and work wonders in your life.
You folks are Catholic. How, How, can you be so critical of folks whose only desire is to develop a deeper adoration for our Lord and move closer to Him in the Holy Eucharist and become more obedient to Holy Mother Church? How can you find fault with this?
Usually when I get emotional and just a little ticked and post like this, I become invisible. Actually, usually folks quit posting in the thread.
I truly hope you don’t. I hope you stick around and converse.
Here we go again.
I have been in the Charismatic (not chrismatic) Renewal in the Catholic Church for over 30 years.
This is in several California Diocese and one out of state.
My experience has been just the opposite.
The Catholic Charismatics (for the greater part) have become better Catholics, more Sacramental and believe it or not, more contemplative. They are more obedient to Holy Mother Church and tend to spend more time in Adoration of the Holy Eucharist.
I have read post after post like the ones in this thread. It is very hard to remain loving and charitible and not everyone who has visited Catholic Answers has. They have sometimes been pushed too far and lost the priv to post here.
I can understand it.
However, so far, I am able to challenge what you say with respect and Christian Love. I challenge you to match your experience in the Renewal with mine. I, with the deepest respect, ask you how folks who spend hours in Praise and Worship of the Holy Trinity, and pray for a deeper experience with the Holy Spirit, and in fact, await the Spirits guidance, fall into such error?
I just went through an awesome weekend in Anaheim California, a Catholic Charismatic Conference. It was approximately my 25th weekend like this. One of the excercises we, as leaders went through was Praising the Lord (in english, not tongues), out loud for 20 minutes. Ever try it? I suggest you do. Not only does it test your spiritual endurance, it gives the Holy Spirit a wide open field to come and work wonders in your life.
You folks are Catholic. How, How, can you be so critical of folks whose only desire is to develop a deeper adoration for our Lord and move closer to Him in the Holy Eucharist and become more obedient to Holy Mother Church? How can you find fault with this?
Usually when I get emotional and just a little ticked and post like this, I become invisible. Actually, usually folks quit posting in the thread.
I truly hope you don’t. I hope you stick around and converse.
B
buzzcut
Guest
3j, Byz, Beebs, Jon, JC, Roberta, thank you all for your informative replies. So what I’m hearing is that CCR can be helpful. The “burned” references I read were all in regard to protestant pentecostals, not CCR. Beebs, you’ve given me an idea of the kind of spookiness to watch out for. 3j, yes, I do feel drawn to at least go to the CCR lecture and give them a listen. JC thanks for the heads-up about the cheesy music!
D
DBT
Guest
Well I kinda like Creedence Clearwater Revival.
Oops, wrong forum.
L
La_Chiara
Guest
So what does CCR stand for? Catholic Charismatic R_____? And what about the references to chrismatic? Are these movements at all related to the Protestant Pentacostal churches, such as Assemblies of God? I have just enough background on this stuff to follow a little, but not enough to really understand this thread. Thanks.
D
DBT
Guest
La Chiara:
Oh, La Chiara
This was just my attempt at a little joke that must have completely missed it’s mark. Dry sense of humors don’t translate so well on the internet I guess
I’m in no way qualified to answer your question but I too will look forward to answers others might provide.
Good to talk to you La Chiara . . .
Dave
Oh, La Chiara This was just my attempt at a little joke that must have completely missed it’s mark. Dry sense of humors don’t translate so well on the internet I guess
I’m in no way qualified to answer your question but I too will look forward to answers others might provide.
Good to talk to you La Chiara . . .
Dave
D
Della
Guest
The problem with the charismatic movement in the Church is that it is not regulated well enough. It is allowed by the Church but there are no real controls over the various groups in our parishes. Some are very good indeed, but many fall into the pitfalls that independent groups often do, of hubris and abuse, of misguided theology and cultish behavior. Perhaps it will take a saint to found an order of lay charismatics so that this movement, which has been very helpful to so many and so damaging to others, might be better regulated and organized.
I was a member of the Assemblies of God for 20 years and so know all about the flaws of the charismatic movement that are endemic in an Evangelical Protestant worldview of every man for himself. But, in a Catholic setting, with proper guidelines and oversight by solid, orthodox people, such as a priest or deacon, it can be a great benefit to those who would be helped by this spirituality.
I was a member of the Assemblies of God for 20 years and so know all about the flaws of the charismatic movement that are endemic in an Evangelical Protestant worldview of every man for himself. But, in a Catholic setting, with proper guidelines and oversight by solid, orthodox people, such as a priest or deacon, it can be a great benefit to those who would be helped by this spirituality.
B
Beebs
Guest
buzzcut said:
Just be careful.
I am not saying it is all bad and not all CCR blurs the line with going protestant.
I am sure all of us have heard all kinds of liturgical abuses and teaching of doctrine outside the magistrium from nonCCR catholic churches.
I guess the things to look for are:
- Is the Spiritual Directory of the CCR group a priest and does his teaching agree with the magistrium.
- if the group leader is a lay person how knowledgable is this person about the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
- If the focus is you all must get certian gifts, like all must speak in tounges, the group has gone off the track. St Paul spells this out to the Corinthians. 1 Corinthians 14:18-22
18 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,
19 but in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, so as to instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers, stop being childish in your thinking. In respect to evil be like infants, but in your thinking be mature.
21 It is written in the law: “By people speaking strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
Remember the Holy Spirit grants us all different gifts, public speaking, financial knowledge, teaching, nursing care…you know the overlooked ones.
I would rather perfer the nice quite Eucharistic adoration :bowdown2: or meditative rosary
anyday, but thats just me. Peace
Beebs
L
La_Chiara
Guest
La Chiara:
Still haven’t received an answer. Can those of you in the know explain these terms to those of us who can’t quite follow this thread? Thanks.
A
axolotl
Guest
Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
I have been to one Charismatic mass. About 20 minutes of praise music prior to mass. Tongue speaking (and other spontaneous prayer) after communion.
One might say it’s sort of a Catholic version of Assemblies of God.
You sort of need to experience it to “get” it.
I think chrismatic may have been a typo.
I have been to one Charismatic mass. About 20 minutes of praise music prior to mass. Tongue speaking (and other spontaneous prayer) after communion.
One might say it’s sort of a Catholic version of Assemblies of God.
You sort of need to experience it to “get” it.
I think chrismatic may have been a typo.
R
robertaf
Guest
With all respect, Della, I must ask, how do you come to this conclusion? How do you know this?
How much experience do you have with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in how many geographic areas?
Folks make these sweeping statements without ever being challenged. I think it is time to challenge them.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Here is my take. I do believe that the Chrismatic movement is unregulated.
First, because there is no bishop or committee listed at the top of it, or is there? To me it seems lay driven.
Second, I believe that many of the Chrismatic Masses are full of abuses.
The Mass is the Mass no matter what group is going to it. I wrote to a parish that has a Chrismatic Mass and ask.
*On Sunday evenings you list a Charismatic Mass.
How is that different from a normal Sunday Mass?*
Here was their reply.
*it differs in song, music being an important part of the celebration particular before Mass, to prepare people for the celebration.
Homily is Spirit-led to speak personally to the people.
At the Penitential Rite, and Prayers of the Faithful, individual people come forward for prayers (they usually stay in their pew at our parish).
At Communion time is allowed for individual words of prophecy to be spoken out.
In sum, the main difference - TIME. It is a relaxed time of praise, worship,celebration of allowing Jesus to minister to his people. So in some Churches the Mass can be 2 or more hours. Ours is about an hour and a half. But if the people really sense the Lord’s presence, time isn’t important. *
Homily is Spirit-led? What’s that? Seems fishy to me but not an abuse, neither is the music issue.
The Penitential Rite is the Penitential Rite, not a time for people to come forward. I believe that this is an abuse. Not to sure about the Prayers of the Faithful, but it should be something formal and lead, not a time for individuals to “come forward”.
“Individual words of prophecy” spoken out during Communion? Again this is very fishy and I believe it is an abuse.
I have nothing against long Liturgies. Our normal Divine Liturgy lasts and hour and fifteen to an hour and a half in the Byzantine Church. I can be rushed to an hour but not where I go.
Just thought I would add my two cents.
First, because there is no bishop or committee listed at the top of it, or is there? To me it seems lay driven.
Second, I believe that many of the Chrismatic Masses are full of abuses.
The Mass is the Mass no matter what group is going to it. I wrote to a parish that has a Chrismatic Mass and ask.
*On Sunday evenings you list a Charismatic Mass.
How is that different from a normal Sunday Mass?*
Here was their reply.
*it differs in song, music being an important part of the celebration particular before Mass, to prepare people for the celebration.
Homily is Spirit-led to speak personally to the people.
At the Penitential Rite, and Prayers of the Faithful, individual people come forward for prayers (they usually stay in their pew at our parish).
At Communion time is allowed for individual words of prophecy to be spoken out.
In sum, the main difference - TIME. It is a relaxed time of praise, worship,celebration of allowing Jesus to minister to his people. So in some Churches the Mass can be 2 or more hours. Ours is about an hour and a half. But if the people really sense the Lord’s presence, time isn’t important. *
Homily is Spirit-led? What’s that? Seems fishy to me but not an abuse, neither is the music issue.
The Penitential Rite is the Penitential Rite, not a time for people to come forward. I believe that this is an abuse. Not to sure about the Prayers of the Faithful, but it should be something formal and lead, not a time for individuals to “come forward”.
“Individual words of prophecy” spoken out during Communion? Again this is very fishy and I believe it is an abuse.
I have nothing against long Liturgies. Our normal Divine Liturgy lasts and hour and fifteen to an hour and a half in the Byzantine Church. I can be rushed to an hour but not where I go.
Just thought I would add my two cents.
A
Augustine
Guest
Second, I believe that many of the Chrismatic Masses are full of abuses.
I myself am suspicious of CCR as ripe for abuse and deviation from the Magisterium, particularly for creating some osrt of Catholic subculture.
Yet, you should give this parish the benefit of the doubt…
it differs in song, music being an important part of the celebration particular before Mass, to prepare people for the celebration.
So far, so good. Some like it, others don’t. No problem. * Homily is Spirit-led to speak personally to the people.*
I don’t know what to make of it. If it’s the priest speaking from the heart, fine. If it’s a lay person, even if after the priest’s homily, though probably canonically legal (I don’t know), is not my cup of tea.
*At the Penitential Rite, and Prayers of the Faithful, individual people come forward for prayers (they usually stay in their pew at our parish). *
This has roots in the early church and to our days in the Russian Orthodox Church. Public confessions of one’s sins used to be the norm in these cases.
I myself am suspicious of CCR as ripe for abuse and deviation from the Magisterium, particularly for creating some osrt of Catholic subculture.
Yet, you should give this parish the benefit of the doubt…
it differs in song, music being an important part of the celebration particular before Mass, to prepare people for the celebration.
So far, so good. Some like it, others don’t. No problem. * Homily is Spirit-led to speak personally to the people.*
I don’t know what to make of it. If it’s the priest speaking from the heart, fine. If it’s a lay person, even if after the priest’s homily, though probably canonically legal (I don’t know), is not my cup of tea.
*At the Penitential Rite, and Prayers of the Faithful, individual people come forward for prayers (they usually stay in their pew at our parish). *
This has roots in the early church and to our days in the Russian Orthodox Church. Public confessions of one’s sins used to be the norm in these cases.
- At Communion time is allowed for individual words of prophecy to be spoken out. *
Prophecy? Praise would be appropriate, I guess, but I’m afraid that as the CCR has its own jargon, I’m unsure about this.
*In sum, the main difference - TIME. It is a relaxed time of praise, worship,celebration of allowing Jesus to minister to his people. *
I’m really queasy about such statements. It’s like the CCR proudly implying that the “normal” Mass is a hypocrite empty shell and that the faithful are as priestly as the priest.
R
robertaf
Guest
I do not know who you received this answer from.
I would like to address a few of the things mentioned here.
First of all, Bishops.
First of all there is a Liaison to the Holy Father, himself for the Charismatic Renewal. The Holy Father recognizes us and encourages us. Much has been written about this in these threads, I won’t go over it again.
Nearly every Diocese has a liaison to the Bishop for the Charismatic Renewal. In many Diocese, the Bishop participates to some extent in the Catholic Charismatic Conferences. I have seen many of them, myself.
We are all very careful not to allow abuses in the Charismatic Masses. As you know, reading the threads here, individual parishes allow them to slip in, most often not being aware that they are abuses. We love the Mass and we are as a group, usually extremely obedient to Holy Mother Church.
A Spirit led homily is self discriptive. I would hope that every homily at every Mass is led by the Holy Spirit, but sometimes I wonder. Most Charismatic Priests have developed their Pastoral gift to Preach the Word. The speak from the heart and the Word tends to come alive. This is opposed to the many priests who do not take the time to prepare a good homily, read “canned” ones, continually check their watches to make sure they do not spend too much time. I think you get the message. Anyone out there who says they have never experienced this, does not place much value on a good homily.
Most of the Charismatic Masses I attend, do not having folks come forward for individual prayer until after the last blessing.
We just do not have people coming forward during Mass.
We do spend time praising God during the elevation of the Holy Eucharist. We are not rushed and many of us sing or speak praises out loud. That is a difference from a regular Sunday Mass. An abuse? Well, if that is an abuse, I am for it.
We do not interupt Mass for prophesy either. Scripture says that everything should have order and that is what we strive for.
You say we are lay led but we do our very best to see that this does not happen. We try our best to have Pastoral participation. Very often, the Priests allows a prayer group but refuses to participate. In these cases, sometimes we are fortunate and have a Deacon who steps forward. We know the value of coming under Pastoral leadership and obedience.
Prayer Group Leaders and Core Team members have access to continual Leadership training. There are many resources out there, including classes, tapes and books. We have annual Conferences and Regional ministries where Leadership training is offered (or should be).
I have gone into a lot of detail here but I think it is called for. The same questions and accusations come up over and over again. They truly need to be challenged and answered.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Who is this bishop?
Well I have to say that you all are not careful as the parish I emailed and gave me that description is not careful as there are abuses.
I tend to stay away from these threads as I do not believe in this “movement”.
That is an abuse. Again, the Mass is the Mass, no one has any right to change it on their own.
No, you might not, but the parish that gave me the description of what happens at their parish does, but you do interupt the Mass for personal prasies.
You say your lay led but try not to be lay led? Huh? : hmmm: That makes no sense at all.
Really? I see no detail here. I provided a description of what the Chrismatic Mass is at a parish. This parish gave me this description though an email. You have given nothing except to say that this is not done, yet I have an email that says it is. You even admit to an abuse in your attempt to refute the email I have from a parish.
You also say that there is a bishop over the “movement” but you don’t give any names.
Sorry but I am not moved from my view of this “movement”.
- Status