Burned by pentecostalism?

[robertaf]

ByzCath:

Who is this bishop?

Well I have to say that you all are not careful as the parish I emailed and gave me that description is not careful as there are abuses.

I tend to stay away from these threads as I do not believe in this “movement”.

That is an abuse. Again, the Mass is the Mass, no one has any right to change it on their own.

No, you might not, but the parish that gave me the description of what happens at their parish does, but you do interupt the Mass for personal prasies.

You say your lay led but try not to be lay led? Huh? : hmmm: That makes no sense at all.

Really? I see no detail here. I provided a description of what the Chrismatic Mass is at a parish. This parish gave me this description though an email. You have given nothing except to say that this is not done, yet I have an email that says it is. You even admit to an abuse in your attempt to refute the email I have from a parish.

You also say that there is a bishop over the “movement” but you don’t give any names.

Sorry but I am not moved from my view of this “movement”.

Probably the best thing you had to say is that you tend to stay away from these threads because you don’t believe in the CHARISMATIC (correct spelling) renewal. You try to damage this valid movement in the Church with an obvious lack of knowledge.

You also do not read very carefully. I said almost every Diocese has a liaison to THAT Bishop for the Charismatic Renewal. This is a fact.

Now, it was told to me last night and so far I have not verified it, that in October the Bishops from all over the United States will be addressing the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The information that I heard, again not verified, is that it is the intent of the Bishop to study ways to encourage the Renewal.

I have been involved in this movement for over 30 years, in several large Diocese and Archdiocese. This includes many many parishes.
You quote one person from one parish and try to give the impression this is a general rule. That is not the case and anyone who has been involved with the CCR for any length of time knows it.

 

[threej_lc]

I’d just like to make 2 quick comments:

If you’re going to judge the charismatic renewal as invalid because one specific parish has abuses in their charismatic mass, then you’ve just invalidated the entire Catholic religious, because, well, most parishes now adays do have abuses in their masses.

Secondly, the raising of the host during consecration is specifically FOR THE PURPOSE of allowing the faithful to worship and venerate it. To do so fulfills the purpose of the action, it does not abuse it.

Whereas in our culture, the adoration is normally done silently, it is in fact the norm in some eastern rite chruches to have vocal prayer at this point.

Josh

 

[steve99]

I would concur with everything robertaf has said. I have not been involved in CCR as long as him, but my experiences have all been positive. Myself and many other people I know have been led into a deeper relationship with God through CCR.
It is supported by the Bishops in England. In a couple of months there is special celebration Mass for Charismatic Renewal in Westminster Cathedral with the principle celebrant being Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor. I was at one of these a couple of years ago and it was a wonderful experience, and the Cardinal was visibly moved by the support he got at that Mass (it was soon after he had been pilloried in the press about a child abouse scandal).
In my experience people in the Renewal are very obedient to the magisterium.

 

[tgerlinger143]

threej_lc:

I’d just like to make 2 quick comments:

If you’re going to judge the charismatic renewal as invalid because one specific parish has abuses in their charismatic mass, then you’ve just invalidated the entire Catholic religious, because, well, most parishes now adays do have abuses in their masses.

Secondly, the raising of the host during consecration is specifically FOR THE PURPOSE of allowing the faithful to worship and venerate it. To do so fulfills the purpose of the action, it does not abuse it.

Whereas in our culture, the adoration is normally done silently, it is in fact the norm in some eastern rite chruches to have vocal prayer at this point.

Josh

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

threej_lc:

I’d just like to make 2 quick comments:

If you’re going to judge the charismatic renewal as invalid because one specific parish has abuses in their charismatic mass, then you’ve just invalidated the entire Catholic religious, because, well, most parishes now adays do have abuses in their masses.

I am not doing so. It seems that this is standard. Just as robertaf states, there are abuses in his Charismatic Mass, they are just different.

I think the Mass is more susceptible to abuse when we create these different sorts of Masses. Rather than just having a Mass they have Charismatic Masses, Lifeteen Masses, etc. and all of these seem to have abuses that are ingrained in them.

Secondly, the raising of the host during consecration is specifically FOR THE PURPOSE of allowing the faithful to worship and venerate it. To do so fulfills the purpose of the action, it does not abuse it.

The worship and vernartion during the elevation is part of the Mass. To add personal praises at this point is an abuse. If it is not specified in the GIRM, then it is an abuse.

Whereas in our culture, the adoration is normally done silently, it is in fact the norm in some eastern rite chruches to have vocal prayer at this point.

I am sorry, but I am a Byzantine Catholic and you could not be father from the truth. There is no vocal prayer at the point of the elevation. During the consecration the priest says the words of institution, he does lift the Host and the Chalice but we do not see this as he is facing the same way the laity is. At the words of institution we bow our heads and then cross ourselves and add a silent amen. There is no vocal prayer by the laity at this point.

To tell the truth, in the East there is no such thing as Adoration of the Eucharist.

 

[threej_lc]

ByzCath:

I am sorry, but I am a Byzantine Catholic and you could not be father from the truth.

There are a whole lot of eastern rites other then the Byzantine rite.

When the Sacred Host is first raised on high, the priest cries aloud, “Ta Ayia tis Ayies,” that is, “Holy things for holy people” - to which the people, or rather the choir, respond “One Holy, one Lord, Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father.” According to the Syriac Liturgy of St. James, which all the Jacobits follow, the priest exclaims, “Holy things are given for holy persons in perfection, purity, and holiness”; to which the people respond, “One Holy Father, one Holy Son, one Holy Ghost; blessed be the name of the Lord, for he is one in Heaven and on earth; glory be to him for evermore.” At the elevation which takes place with the Maronites the priest, raising the sacred Host aloft, cries out, “Holy things are given for holy people in perfection, purity and sanctity”; to which the people respond, “One Holy Father, one Holy Son, one Holy Ghost; glory be to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Ghost.” When elevating the chalice the priest says, according to the same rite, “Thus, O, Lord! In truth we verily believe in thee just as believes in three the Holy Catholic Church, that thou art one Holy Father, to whom belongeth glory, Amen; one Holy Son, to whom belongeth glory, Amen; one Holy Spirit, to whom belongeth glory and thanksgiving forever, Amen.”

Taken from www.melkite.org

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

threej_lc:

There are a whole lot of eastern rites other then the Byzantine rite.

The Melkite Greek Catholic Church is one of the many Churches that is part of the Byzantine rite.

I happen to go to a Melkite parish.

Yes at the elevation the priest chants, “Holy things for the Holy”, at which time he lowers the Eucharist to the altar and the laity respond with, “One is holy, One is Lord. Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father, Amen.”

This is not our individual praise of the Eucharist, this is part of the Divine Liturgy. We do not “sing or speak praises out loud”.

As there is nothing like this spelt out in the GIRM for the Mass, any such thing would be an abuse.

 

[threej_lc]

Thankyou for correcting me on Melkite being part of the Byzantine church.

ByzCath:

This is not our individual praise of the Eucharist, this is part of the Divine Liturgy. We do not “sing or speak praises out loud”.

This however, I don’t understand. If this is not your individual praise, does that mean you are saying it solely because you have to, and are consciously abstaining from giving God any worship or adoration when you say this? Or have you excommunicated yourself from the church such that its proclamation of praise has no relationship to you as a person?

I’ll cede to your argument that anything that isn’t explicitly stated in the GIRM is an abuse, although I don’t know enough about the situation to debate it.

However, I was not trying to claim that the vocal adoration of the Eucharist was or was not an abuse in the Latin Rite mass. I was merely trying to put the action in a general context.

As it is, I’ve been a Charismatic for 7 years, been to a few charismatic masses, and I’ve never seen one that prayed vocally at the elevation.

The renewal is about having a deeper awareness and reliance on the holy spirit, which in turn, leads to deeper love of the church and the sacraments. Everything else is how people live it out in their personal lives, and like Catholicism in general, the norm of how people abuse it is in no way representative of what it stands for.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

threej_lc:

Thankyou for correcting me on Melkite being part of the Byzantine church.

Just so we have the terms right, it is not part of the Byzantine Church, it is part of the Byzantine rite. In the short form, people belong to Churches and Churches belong to rites.

This however, I don’t understand. If this is not your individual praise, does that mean you are saying it solely because you have to, and are consciously abstaining from giving God any worship or adoration when you say this? Or have you excommunicated yourself from the church such that its proclamation of praise has no relationship to you as a person?

This is a part of the Divine Liturgy, I would not call it vocal adoration of the Eucharist (to use your words).

And please tell me how I would “excommunicate” myself if I said that it is not my individual praise. It is the praise of the Community as is the whole Divine Liturgy.

I’ll cede to your argument that anything that isn’t explicitly stated in the GIRM is an abuse, although I don’t know enough about the situation to debate it.

However, I was not trying to claim that the vocal adoration of the Eucharist was or was not an abuse in the Latin Rite mass. I was merely trying to put the action in a general context.

But the insertion of a this where it is not called for is an abuse.

As it is, I’ve been a Charismatic for 7 years, been to a few charismatic masses, and I’ve never seen one that prayed vocally at the elevation.

This is my point, when we start having all these separate Masses, rather than just the Mass, they can fragment and become full of abuses.

The renewal is about having a deeper awareness and reliance on the holy spirit, which in turn, leads to deeper love of the church and the sacraments. Everything else is how people live it out in their personal lives, and like Catholicism in general, the norm of how people abuse it is in no way representative of what it stands for.

That is a great goal but I see it doing the opposite. Causeing division. For now you ahve a Charismatic Mass. By its name is seems that non-Charismatics are not invited.

Just as the “Baptism of the Spirit” can create second class christians as not everyone recieves the same gifts.

And then there is the fact that there is only one Baptism at which we recieve the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

As you can tell, I so not agree with this “movement” which is why I tend to stay away from these threads, regardless of what robertaf thinks, I do have experience with the “movement”.

The only reason I replied to this thread is that the OP asked about pentecostalism, which I am very familiar with.

I will leave it at that now. If the OP wants anything more from me he can send me a private message, I will not be returning to this thread.

 

[steve99]

ByzCath:

I think the Mass is more susceptible to abuse when we create these different sorts of Masses. Rather than just having a Mass they have Charismatic Masses, Lifeteen Masses, etc. and all of these seem to have abuses that are ingrained in them.

I think this is the sort of generalised unsubstantiated comment we can do without.

ByzCath:

That is a great goal but I see it doing the opposite. Causeing division. For now you ahve a Charismatic Mass. By its name is seems that non-Charismatics are not invited.

It doesn’t follow at all just as having a Latin Mass doesn’t mean that those who aren’t regular TLM goers aren’t invited. The only people who have Masses that exclude other people are the Neo-Cats, but thats another story.

 

[JCPhoenix]

robertaf:

Now, it was told to me last night and so far I have not verified it, that in October the Bishops from all over the United States will be addressing the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The information that I heard, again not verified, is that it is the intent of the Bishop to study ways to encourage the Renewal.

.

I can confirm this as I have a flier in front of me. I’ve collected several beginning the All-City Charismatic Mass on May 15 and continuing from the mail.

www.mncro.org

October 7 through October 9 at the Earle Browne Heritage center in Brooklyn Center, MN.

(I live nearby)

List of speakers:

Archbishop Harry Flynn, Mpls/St. Paul
Bishop Sam G. Jacobs, Houoma-Thibodaux Diocese, LA
Bishop Thomas J. Flanagan, Bishop of San Antonio, TX
Bishop Robert J. Hermann, St. Louis, MO
Fr. Tim Nolan, MN
Fr. Kevin McDonough, MN (impressive credentials–Canon Lawyer and Former Chancellor for Archd. of St.P/Mpls, Vicar Gen and Mod of the Curia, St. P/Mpls
Deacon Ralph L’Allier
Deacon Gregory Luigi Serangeli
Sister Justin Wirth, SSND (sorry to say-as a discerning potential Sister–not known to be the most orthodox order, does not wear a habit, “liberal” ideology, but I don’t know the woman at all, just a “sister” of hers).

There will also be a pro-life singer named Mary Donahue

The Eucharistic Congress is the same weekend, so I’ll be attending that and it will compete against this particular event.

Apparently they arranged the CCR Conference over a year AND confiirmed the speakers and then the Eucharistic Congress was set for the same weekend. They decided to go on with the conference anyway, knowing that a good number of people were not going to be available due to the other conf.

So there’s your confirmation.

www.mncro.org