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inJESUS
Guest
Am with De Maria, if i were a bus driver, i wouldn’t drive that bus and if i were to use a bus, i’ll wait for another one, but anyway, such things do not happen in my part of the world where the bus company must start thinking of another business if they were to advertise such things.
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Sam_777
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& De Maria.
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MegaTherion
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Oh, sorry, I didn’t see this post:
They can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.
I don’t deny that people have “supernatural” experiences – but there is nothing to indicate that those experiences correspond to whatever supernatural entity the person thinks is causing the experience.
An analogy: I have the experience of watching the moon shrink during a lunar eclipse. The experience is real. But that experience does not correspond to reality – the moon is not really shrinking.
In fact, it’s been demonstrated that “spiritual” feelings and experiences can be generated by stimulating certain parts of the brain. Different individuals call that feeling Jesus or Elijah or Great Spirit or whatever they already believe in.
Such experience seems to be just an individual’s own enthusiasm and brain waves…and that will be my position until we have some evidence that indicates something more than this.
There certainly are people who claim to know various gods directly – in addition to Christians, there are Hindus, certain kinds of theistic Buddhists, Muslims, occultists of all stripes, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, and others who claim to have an experience of something non-physical.
They can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.
I don’t deny that people have “supernatural” experiences – but there is nothing to indicate that those experiences correspond to whatever supernatural entity the person thinks is causing the experience.
An analogy: I have the experience of watching the moon shrink during a lunar eclipse. The experience is real. But that experience does not correspond to reality – the moon is not really shrinking.
In fact, it’s been demonstrated that “spiritual” feelings and experiences can be generated by stimulating certain parts of the brain. Different individuals call that feeling Jesus or Elijah or Great Spirit or whatever they already believe in.
Such experience seems to be just an individual’s own enthusiasm and brain waves…and that will be my position until we have some evidence that indicates something more than this.
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zerinus
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MegaTherion
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The same kind of evidence I expect to see for anything that exists (that is, exists for everybody, not just in my mind): independently confirmable, and repeatedly verifiable data.
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Ross09
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Sounds like you only “believe” in what can be proven. Humans will never be able to explain everything. Just as some concepts are beyond the understanding of a child, some concepts will always be beyond adult understanding. I cannot conceptualize a boundless universe, nor the eternity of time. There is always the unanswerable question of what lies beyond, and what came before time. What is the risk in believing something that cannot be proven?
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zerinus
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That is a non-answer. It doesn’t answer the question. What specific kind of evidence are you looking for to prove to you that there is a God? If you asked me what kind of evidence I would need to prove to me that the earth is round and not flat; or that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way round, I would be able to tell you. Different types of phenomena require different kinds of proof. The proof that I love my wife is different from the proof that flu is caused by a virus. I am interested to know what kind of proof you are looking for to convince you that there is a God?
zerinus
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mlchance
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If those were the only two options, you’d have something resembling a point.
– Mark L. Chance.
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MegaTherion
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Your question is like asking me what evidence I would need to believe in a Kwijiboe. I have no answer to that question because I don’t even know what a Kwijiboe is. It’s up to Kwijiboe-believers to produce evidence to substantiate their claims.
I’m not the one claiming that a god exists: you are.
If a thing exists, there would be evidence for it.
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stbruno
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I can’t see the wind or electricity but I see what wind can do and what electricity can do.
That’s what faith in God is…we can’t see Him, but we see the fruits of our God who is an awesome God.
I never call people an atheist if they are on this forum…they may be doubting Thomases, unless they can put their hands into his side or touch his wounds. But you know what…there was a Thomas who did that for us…2000 years ago.
And God does exist. He told us himself.
That’s what faith in God is…we can’t see Him, but we see the fruits of our God who is an awesome God.
I never call people an atheist if they are on this forum…they may be doubting Thomases, unless they can put their hands into his side or touch his wounds. But you know what…there was a Thomas who did that for us…2000 years ago.
And God does exist. He told us himself.
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MegaTherion
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You can measure wind and electricity. They are independently verifiable and repeatedly confirmable. The analogy fails.
Your god did, and the Hindu gods did, and the Zoroastrian gods did, and the Roman gods did, and the…
There are tons of gods that people believe have told us that they exist. There’s not a shred of evidence that any of them are real. As a result, I do not have a belief in any of them.
In other words, they all probably don’t exist.
Edit: If you’re curious, I’m on the forum to clear up the wild misconceptions about atheism that I’ve seen here.
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zerinus
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The problem with demanding the proof of God is that God is an intelligent being with His own will; so He can make certain decisions about Himself and how He wants to relate to others. For example, I am an intelligent being with my own independent will, so I can decide whether to put my name in the telephone directory or not. If I decide not to put my name there, then you won’t be able to find me by looking there; and you may come to the conclusion that, there is some possibility that I might not exist. That is just an analogy. In the case of God, that translates into something more absolute; because God is not only intelligent and has His own volition; He is also omniscient and omnipotent. That means that you will only be able to discover Him on His own terms, not on your terms—or mine for that matter. So there is something fundamentally flawed in demanding “proof” of God. There isn’t any (indeed cannot be) in that sense of the term. It is His choice to reveal Himself to you, or else you cannot know Him. So how do you expect me or anybody else to “prove” the existence of God to you, if He decides that that is not how He wants to be known?
zerinus
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Shin
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What if God placed proof out there, but also blinded people to it who He didn’t want to see it?
Why would God not want people to see something?
Why would anyone not want people to see something? Because they would disrespect it even if they saw it. Because they approach it the wrong way, in a way that is not good or virtuous, but is self-centered and self-righteous, as if they would ‘judge God’.
Proof exists. Can be found by anyone. Have to approach it virtuously, humbly, openly. Don’t want to do that? Special miracle only for you to see.
Disagree with that, think you are ‘good person’ who ‘has a right to see’? Again, no one has rights in front of God. Sorry. Look to your own imperfections and ask if ant has right to tell elephant to step step aside – even the ant has far more right than you.
Approach God as person who has no rights, looking for help… then, He will fulfill in His time as He promised, ‘seek and ye shall find’. Without a doubt.
Why would God not want people to see something?
Why would anyone not want people to see something? Because they would disrespect it even if they saw it. Because they approach it the wrong way, in a way that is not good or virtuous, but is self-centered and self-righteous, as if they would ‘judge God’.
Proof exists. Can be found by anyone. Have to approach it virtuously, humbly, openly. Don’t want to do that? Special miracle only for you to see.
Disagree with that, think you are ‘good person’ who ‘has a right to see’? Again, no one has rights in front of God. Sorry. Look to your own imperfections and ask if ant has right to tell elephant to step step aside – even the ant has far more right than you.
Approach God as person who has no rights, looking for help… then, He will fulfill in His time as He promised, ‘seek and ye shall find’.
Without a doubt.
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MegaTherion
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I’m not demanding proof. I’m just explaining why I don’t believe in your god – for the same reason I don’t believe in the Hindu gods or leprechauns.
No evidence.
Perhaps your god will reveal himself to me, or perhaps the Hindu gods will reveal themselves to me, or perhaps leprechauns will reveal themselves to me. Even in such a case, it wouldn’t actually be evidence…if I can’t demonstrate the existence of any of those things independently of myself, then it’s wrong to say that they “exist” in the sense of existing for everybody…they might just be figments of my imagination.
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Shin
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Pardon… a small criticism… it is up to you whether you accept it, or if you will look at it and see if it applies or just toss it aside. Not meant with bad intent.
The statement you just made sounds very self absorbed.
To find God one must go outside of oneself and one’s boundaries. Then one finds out what a ramshackle thing they are, and how solid they weren’t – like dust.
The statement you just made sounds very self absorbed.
To find God one must go outside of oneself and one’s boundaries. Then one finds out what a ramshackle thing they are, and how solid they weren’t – like dust.
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MegaTherion
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What if there’s proof of leprechauns out there…but only people chosen by the leprechauns can see it (provided they eat their Lucky Charms!)?
If that were the case, then I’d be justified in not believing in those leprechauns until there was actual evidence (capable of being verified by anyone and everyone).
And I’d be justified in saying “There’s probably no leprechauns.” (to attempt to return to the thread’s topic)
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Shin
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Comparing God to leprechauns…
You do so for sake of ridicule do you not? Hmm? Do you think God will reveal Himself to you or befriend you like that? But perhaps you do -not want to see-? Hmm? And at the same time complain about not seeing, and pretend everyone who sees is crazy?
But be honest – if you do not want to see, and want to ridicule and prove one thing or another for the sake of your feelings, if you have not honest charity and truthseeking but impure motivations?
Has anyone ever claimed to have found God like that that you know of?
The God of the Christians?
You do so for sake of ridicule do you not? Hmm? Do you think God will reveal Himself to you or befriend you like that? But perhaps you do -not want to see-? Hmm? And at the same time complain about not seeing, and pretend everyone who sees is crazy?
But be honest – if you do not want to see, and want to ridicule and prove one thing or another for the sake of your feelings, if you have not honest charity and truthseeking but impure motivations?
Has anyone ever claimed to have found God like that that you know of?
The God of the Christians?
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zerinus
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I think there is evidence, but not of the kind you are expecting. The evidence initially is in the form of the testimony of those who have known Him, like Moses for example, which I mentioned earlier. That can lead you to an investigation which if rightly pursued, can lead to a personal revelation of God to you. We live most of our lives based on trust. If we didn’t trust anyone at all, we wouldn’t be able to live. When you ask someone in the street what time it is, and he tells you; you don’t afterwards say, what if he is lying? You trust that he is telling you the truth. When you go to college, and the teacher presents you with a lesson, you take his word that he has told you the truth. You don’t assume the worst, unless proved otherwise! Religion is like that. You have to trust someone first, before obtaining independent verification for yourself.
That is a ridiculous argument. If I came to your house, knocked on your door, introduced myself, you invited me in, and we had dinner at your house, and I left with a big thank you, and invited you to come and visit me at my house; would you still be wondering if that was a “figment of your imagination”? What makes you think that your encounter with God should be any different?
zerinus
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MegaTherion
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Well, I wouldn’t blindly trust a stranger in the street, no (what if his watch is off? etc). I usually do ask more than one person for the time.
For the most part I live based on experience, evidence, and reason. For example, I trust a teacher not because I have blind faith but because my experience has confirmed that most teachers are trustworthy in their fields and this is corroborated by reason, etc.
You’re right that some things we take for granted – but the things we take for granted are mundane and commonplace. When you claim that a god exists, you’re claiming something extraordinary. While I might accept mundane claims without evidence, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
I’m actually not trying to ridicule – I’m trying to pick something that I’m sure no one believes in so that the point will be clear. The comparison isn’t between your god and leprechauns, but between belief in your god without evidence and belief in leprechauns without evidence. I could do it with the Hindu gods, but it wouldn’t be as fun.
Look, guys, things that exist clearly exist for everybody regardless of what anyone believes. I don’t need to “believe” in electrons in order for someone to demonstrate that they exist to me. I don’t need to have “respect” for supernovas in order to be shown that they exist. It doesn’t matter what I think – things either exist for everybody (regardless of belief) or not.
That’s the reason it’s perfectly valid to say “There’s probably no God.”
Just like it’s perfectly valid to say “There’s probably no Vishnu.”
Or (dare I say it) “There’s probably no leprechauns.”
Edit: Just to be crystal clear, I am not complaining about “not seeing” your god. I don’t think that any god exists, period. Nothing to complain about here.
And I also don’t think everyone who believes in god are crazy. I think that most theists just haven’t really approached the question with the proper amount of skepticism.
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