Bush Isn't Pro-Life and I have the numbers to prove it

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And this furthers discussion how?
You tell me. You opened your response to me with “I understand why it is appealing to believe that secular law and prohibition works.”

Real quick: Use the search function and find a single example of me ever claiming a belief in that “secular law and prohibition works.”

If you can’t, that’s a great example of a strawman.

Now should I drag out the quote where you accuse people who disagree with you of possibly being idolaters?
If you want to argue that Jesus was a pro-abortionist in the Gospel, be my guest.
How does this further the discussion? Is this an acceptable rejoined: If you want to argue that Christ Jesus wants abortion to be legal, be my guest.

But don’t expect any right-thinking Christian to agree with you.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
SoCalRC said:
- When our ‘friends’ on the right quietly concede that it is incredibly doubtful that the ban will stop a single abortion, what was the point?
  • history seems to show that the secular law approach will never be completely successful
  • why is it so important to put all our faith in a secular law solution?
Your first argument is that the partial birth abortion ban won’t stop any abortions and was therefore a useless effort; your second argument is that the law is incapable of stopping abortion anyway, and your conclusion is that we should find another solution that doesn’t rely on the law.

I assume that the solution you seek lies in convincing people of the inhumanity of abortion - the battle for the hearts and minds of the people. If that’s so, why do you belittle those who are actively contributing to that goal? The ban on partial birth abortions which you dismissed as a fraud because it won’t be effective (at the same time claiming that no law will be particularly effective) received a great deal of publicity and a lot of people were appalled by the procedure.

If you really want to change peoples minds why do you reject the best soapbox available: the public, political debate over the issues? Maybe the laws won’t help but the publicity will. If the issue disappears from political debate it will cripple the solution you claim to seek yet you claim to find no reason to support the politicians who keep this issue before the public because they cannot do what you claim is impossible anyway. I’m surely not alone in finding some inconsistencies in your approach.

Ender
 
Real quick: Use the search function and find a single example of me ever claiming a belief in that “secular law and prohibition works.”

If you can’t, that’s a great example of a strawman.
You could be correct. You were abusive and seemed angry at facts from government publications, so I assumed you were supported the point of the other poster. Who has, in addition to asserting that only secular law is appropriate to address, claimed personal credit for all postiive results in this area. But you presumably know what they say about assume. Perhaps you could explain your point of view, preferably without starting your posts with insults, and I would be happy to consider it.
Now should I drag out the quote where you accuse people who disagree with you of possibly being idolaters?
Did you bother to follow up on the complete reference? I noted St. John’s definition of the action. The suggestion was to scripture for self reflection. St. John made the intriguing suggestion that demons can work not just through men and pigs, as noted in the Gospels, but also through political structures. See also Rev 12, 13.
How does this further the discussion? Is this an acceptable rejoined: If you want to argue that Christ Jesus wants abortion to be legal, be my guest.
I was asking you to have a point. If you are going to interject, particularly with an insult, it is helpful to come equiped with something other than rage. The ‘arguments’ being repeatedly labeled as pro-abortion contained no suggestions of legalization or tolerance. Simply references to scripture - to support God’s direct call to social justice, and the suggestion that secular law alone has never proven to be enough.

This idea, that God may expect more from us, does anger some people, just as stats from the government seem to threaten and enrage you. But just look at the Gospel of Luke, which we are hearing so much of this year. How often does the message of false security in self rightousness have to be repeated before one wonders, am I truly following Christ in every way that I can?

Also, I think we need to be clear on the definition of ‘straw man’. I was using it in the context of ‘that is an argument I have never made’. You initially seemed to accept that same definition, and I conceded that I inferred your position from the position you entered the discussion. But now you appear to be assigning an argument to me that, again, I never made…
But don’t expect any right-thinking Christian to agree with you.
You are lucky. Personally, I am constantly challenged by our faith. To me, it remains amazing in just how many ways Christ challenges our thinking and fundemental beliefs. Think about it, he proclaims a world that will be, quite literaly, upside down. He has men abandon everything, accepts women as benefactors… Mary not only sits at his feet in a man’s traditional role, Martha is essentially criticized for following her traditional role…

Without studying the history it is hard for people to realize just how monumental it would be to stand a woman up in temple, or refer to her as “Daughter of Abraham”. In the 60’s and 70’s, both civil rights and the feminist movement challenged a belief system that had been ingrained in me since birth. But when I truly looked to Christ, not just to find what I wanted to hear, but to try to hear what he had to say, I had to rethink those beliefs.

This is just one example of many. In the context of history, there are few passages in the Gospels where Jesus does not seem to challenge the status quo. And even this one instance is never really ‘over’. For example, something about people challenging our patriarchal Ordinary really bothers me. I picture confessing to a female priest and become shocked and offended. But I am still not certain that my emotive response is correct. Christ did, after all, even challenge the patriarchal structure of ‘family’ and did allow women into non traditional roles in his earthly ministry. These are themes that St. Paul appears to take even further. So, while I am grateful that the Magesterium currently matches my gut reaction, I also try not to let my emotive response lull me into a sense of psuedo certainty.

It must be much more convenient to know, with great certainly, exactly how a Christian should correctly think about every conceivable subject.
 
You could be correct.
I could be? So now your insinuating that I’m a liar?
You were abusive and seemed angry at facts from government publications…
Abusive? Objecting that estimations of statistics about activities which cannot be accurately measured do not represent hard data is being abusive? Interesting.

And from this you infer that I’m angry. Hmm.
…so I assumed you were supported the point of the other poster.
You assumed? You seem to do that a lot.
Perhaps you could explain your point of view, preferably without starting your posts with insults, and I would be happy to consider it.
Again with the accusations about insults. I’ve insulted no one. You, OTOH…
Did you bother to follow up on the complete reference? I noted St. John’s definition of the action.
And you implicitly suggested the perjorative “idolator” applies to people who disagree with you. In this next section, you implictly assert that those same people are in cahoots with demons:
St. John made the intriguing suggestion that demons can work not just through men and pigs, as noted in the Gospels, but also through political structures.
I was asking you to have a point. If you are going to interject, particularly with an insult…
:rolleyes:
…it is helpful to come equiped with something other than rage.
:rolleyes:
This idea, that God may expect more from us, does anger some people, just as stats from the government seem to threaten and enrage you.
:rolleyes:
But now you appear to be assigning an argument to me that, again, I never made…
Tit for tat?
Without studying the history…
So now I’m historically ignorant?
I picture confessing to a female priest and become shocked and offended. But I am still not certain that my emotive response is correct. Christ did, after all, even challenge the patriarchal structure of ‘family’ and did allow women into non traditional roles in his earthly ministry.
Wow. How did you get to questioning the infallible teaching of the Church that women can’t be ordained?
It must be much more convenient to know, with great certainly, exactly how a Christian should correctly think about every conceivable subject.
There’s another strawman. How does that help further the discussion?

Let’s cut to the heart of the matter: If tomorrow your vote decided whether or not abortion remained legal in the U.S., how would you vote?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Your first argument is that the partial birth abortion ban won’t stop any abortions and was therefore a useless effort;
Correct, and I cited both the Supreme Court opinion, and the opinions of even groups that strongly supported it.
your second argument is that the law is incapable of stopping abortion anyway, and your conclusion is that we should find another solution that doesn’t rely on the law.
Almost correct. A change in secular law would probably prevent some abortions. However, I believe that a total emphasis on secular law, to the exclussion of Christ’s teachings and other infallible teachings of our Church is a dead end path.

Society will not accept our teachings on abortion any time soon. Consider, we have 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court and just produced a majority opinion that gives a blue print for circumventing a ban that effects only 2000 abortions a year - and reaffirms the dubious legality of Roe v. Wade… Even many Catholics do not wholly accept our absolute ban, and argue that about 100,000 abortions a year are not ‘direct’ when the life of the mother. We must stop this, but there is no single, magic bullet.
I assume that the solution you seek lies in convincing people of the inhumanity of abortion - the battle for the hearts and minds of the people.
Yes, the hearts and minds of the people must change. Just as the Church battled the widespread practice of infanticide for the first millenia, then the practice of abandonment for centuries more.
If that’s so, why do you belittle those who are actively contributing to that goal?
Well, I think that we could look back at what has actually been said and raise the very real question of who is belittling whom. After all, I have been repeatedly called pro-abortion because I believe that Social Justice contributes to our goal. But you stil ask a valid question.

The Partial Birth Abortion Ban troubles me in particular because the publicity and appall are largely based on falsehoods. We were told that it would stop a significant number of abortions, something the authors of the bill did not believe to be true. We convinced the public that this was primarily a 3rd trimester procedure, it is not. We argued that the procedure is never a medical necessity, when, in fact, it fairly likely to be used in some of the most morally troubling cases where secular society is most likely to sympathize with the decisions of mother…

Whenever deceptions are used to promote a cause I think a very real possibility exists for a net loss. Sure, short term gains can be had, but it ultimately makes things worse. A good example would be the occupation in Iraq. As a big fan of Frances Fukuyama, the conservative theorist and father of neoconservatism, I am well aware that many of the main players in the Bush administration had arguments for invading and occupying Iraq, dating back to the early 90’s, and crystalized in the Project for the New American Century formed in '97. I actually doubted the wisdom of those arguments, largely because of my two tours as a medic in Vietnam (my own attempt to balance faith and duty to country).

However, even in the PNAC writings, it was believed that the public would not accept the obvious wisdom of using Iraq to establish a permanent military presence in the region, so a rallying event would be needed. So it was not the least bit surprising to me that 9/11 quickly turned into a call for invading Iraq. Although I always had doubts, I do believe that most of people involved in planning the invasion thought that it was the right thing for the country to do. But by telling us things like, 6 months, no cost, 9/11, weapons of mass destruction, instead of the reasons they actually believed, they got an invasion and short term support, but no long term support for the actual endeavor.

I think this is tragic. To me, rather or not we were lied to, and rather or not the original occupation and counter insurgency was incompetently handled is irrelevant. The moral obligation seems clear, we’ve created a situation where hundreds of people show up tortured and beheaded over night and where have to arm militias that are driving hundreds of thousands of Christians from their homes. But it is now almost impossible that we will volunteer in droves or match hundreds of billions of dollars that have been spent poorly - because the deceptions and loss of trust give an excuse to avoid a grievous moral responsibility, and a lack of faith in our leadership for many.

We see a similiar reaction here. Even among people whose basic beliefs about abortion match, look at how much anger and resentment is triggered when it is suggested that something that has been repeated and accepted is challented.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegame
He appointed two judges that passed the law against partial birth abortion.
That is incorrect on a number of levels. Congress passed a law, the Supreme Court upheld it. However, Bush’s two appointees signed a majority opinion expressly upholding Roe v. Wade, something I consider a betrayal. Only Scalia and Thomas, in a concurring opinion, questioned the Constitutional basis of Roe v. Wade. However, they also said that they would not have upheld the ban if the Commerce Clause (!?) of the Constitution had been raised. Something else I consider a betrayal.
-SoCalRC

SoCalRC Uh, no kidding? The rest of us don’t try to give a dissertation, we just assume people on here past social studies in the fifth grade. (By the way, maybe you should re-take it, your correction isn’t even correct, if your trying to give the steps to the Supreme Court (they hear appeals - not uphold laws, and thats really not the point anyway.)

As far as the “betrayal:” While you were correcting me, you mssed my point. Under constitutional law in the U.S., most lawyers believe Roe v. Wade can’t/shoudln’t be overturned (even Pro-life ones.) You have to legislate down from the top. The first step was Partial Birth Abortion. I repeat Bush did more on this issue than any activist ever did in terms of results! (One Liberal Pres. can undue that w/ one apointment by the way.)
 
Let’s cut to the heart of the matter: If tomorrow your vote decided whether or not abortion remained legal in the U.S., how would you vote?

– Mark L. Chance.
I think we all know the answer to that I haven’t been in this thread much lately because it is long since been hijacked from talking about abortion to arguing about statistics. As if the difference between 400,000 children killed and 600,000 children killed in a given year justifies killing them in the first place.

Remember the first rule of debate for pro-abortion people - change the subject to talking about anything but the abject evil that abortion is. Over 20,000 children have been killed since this thread began. That’s what we should focus on-bringing this to an end.
 
Let’s cut to the heart of the matter: If tomorrow your vote decided whether or not abortion remained legal in the U.S., how would you vote?
Illegal. My wife and I chose life through a very difficult pregnancy and now have a severely disabled son who also happens to be one of the lights of my life. Our daughter decided to wait out an ectopic pregnancy, despite resistance from her doctors, her insurance company, and even pleadings from her parents. In hindsight, I accept I was wrong to challenge her faith. How else could I vote?

But am I willing to continue to put my faith in secular law and flawed political solutions? No. Once I realized that the White House and much of the congressional leadership in the GOP had directly profited from forced abortions in Saipan, I realized that my Swiss friend was right and my voting ‘pragmatism’ was just self delusion. I cannot speak for others, I just know what my concience now tells me.

But this is irrelevant. You want to argue, and you sneer that I do not know your point of view - but what, exactly, is your belief? You take sides in a discussion, get angry when the position of the side you take is assigned to you, and get still angrier when I concde that, in fact, I may well not know your point of view…

I’m sorry, I won’t facilitate such an activity. Rage and destruction for its own sake does not interest me. If you want to discuss competing points of view, fine. If you want to rage and sneer without ever even presenting a point of view you are willing to take ownership for, I can’t help you.
 
Illegal…
Actions speak louder than words. You claim you want it illegal but also assure us you will vote for canidates and support parties who have stated they will do everything within their power to keep abortion legal in this country.

Politics trumps faith. And the children continue to die,
 
I think we all know the answer to that I haven’t been in this thread much lately because it is long since been hijacked from talking about abortion to arguing about statistics. As if the difference between 400,000 children killed and 600,000 children killed in a given year justifies killing them in the first place.

Remember the first rule of debate for pro-abortion people - change the subject to talking about anything but the abject evil that abortion is. Over 20,000 children have been killed since this thread began. That’s what we should focus on-bringing this to an end.
Actually, the difference is between 400,000 and 950,000. And the relevance is that it draws into question the belief that Roe v. Wade, in of itself, caused an increase of 1.2M abortions in 3 years (vs. a 200,000 increase).

Name calling is a common practice for avoiding substance. As is changing the subject. No one contests that abortion is a grave evil. Just that all your self congratulation and disdain for “sideline” Catholics may be misguided.

But name calling and avoidance are probably to be expected. After all, I am the one saying that the best path to dramatically fewer abortions is to follow Christ. You are the one rejecting that argument outright…
 
After all, I am the one saying that the best path to dramatically fewer abortions is to follow Christ.
You are the one rejecting that argument outright…

I have never said that. It is a baseless accusation that you have leveled at just about everyone who has dsagreed with you in this thread. You aid and abette those who kill our children and yet tell us that you are following Christ. Having been involved in the pro-life minstry for over 30 years i will have to admit that is a new one on me.
 
Actions speak louder than words. You claim you want it illegal but also assure us you will vote for canidates and support parties who have stated they will do everything within their power to keep abortion legal in this country.

Politics trumps faith. And the children continue to die,
And reading is fundemental. I said that I will not pragmatically vote for candidates. I now vote for candidates who match all my beliefs, not just one or two. Rather or not they can win is no longer relevant to me. I am fortunate in that I am permitted write ins. If I could not, I would refrain from voting in some circumstances.

In other words, when all the top tier candiates profit from and/or support abortion, I won’t tell myself I am picking the lesser of two evils. I will vote my concience, or not at all.
 
I have never said that. It is a baseless accusation that you have leveled at just about everyone who has dsagreed with you in this thread. You aid and abette those who kill our children and yet tell us that you are following Christ. Having been involved in the pro-life minstry for over 30 years i will have to admit that is a new one on me.
I take bearing false witness seriously. What, exactly, are you now claiming that I have falsely assigned to you?
 
I take bearing false witness seriously. What, exactly, are you now claiming that I have falsely assigned to you?
But name calling and avoidance are probably to be expected. After all, I am the one saying that the best path to dramatically fewer abortions is to follow Christ. You are the one rejecting that argument outright…
 
So, after you overturn Roe v. Wade, then what? There were roughly 500,000 illegal abortions each year in the US in the 40s.

Right in this thread, ‘these sort of arguments…’.
There were not 500,000 illegal abortions in the US before Roe v Wade. The physician who testified for Roe v Wade said there were approximately 100,000 abortions. He has admitted that this was a made up number. They figured they needed a number that seemed significant enough to get attention and this was the number they settled on.

The actual numbers were very low…but hard to determine. I have read some estimates of wrounf 10,000 per year…far less than the 100,000 that sold the people of the US on a mother’s right to kill a child.

I will research and see if I can find a link…
 
There were not 500,000 illegal abortions in the US before Roe v Wade. The physician who testified for Roe v Wade said there were approximately 100,000 abortions. He has admitted that this was a made up number. They figured they needed a number that seemed significant enough to get attention and this was the number they settled on.

The actual numbers were very low…but hard to determine. I have read some estimates of wrounf 10,000 per year…far less than the 100,000 that sold the people of the US on a mother’s right to kill a child.

I will research and see if I can find a link…
Everyone seems to agree that abortions increased almost threefold after Roe V. Wade was forced on the country. Evidence for sure that making abortion illegal cuts down the number of dead children.
 
Illegal. My wife and I chose life through a very difficult pregnancy and now have a severely disabled son who also happens to be one of the lights of my life.
Good for you.
You want to argue, and you sneer that I do not know your point of view - but what, exactly, is your belief? You take sides in a discussion, get angry when the position of the side you take is assigned to you, and get still angrier when I concde that, in fact, I may well not know your point of view…

I’m sorry, I won’t facilitate such an activity. Rage and destruction for its own sake does not interest me. If you want to discuss competing points of view, fine. If you want to rage and sneer without ever even presenting a point of view you are willing to take ownership for, I can’t help you.
Why are so obsessed with ascribing uncharitable motives to others? Please present evidence that I am enraged. Please present evidence that I am sneering. Start another thread if you’d like to keep this one more or less on-topic. Are you incapable of actually discussing something without insulting other people by talking down to them and narrating for them what you merely imagine to be their thoughts and feelings?

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Everyone seems to agree that abortions increased almost threefold after Roe V. Wade was forced on the country. Evidence for sure that making abortion illegal cuts down the number of dead children.
And could it be that before Roe v Wade that people were more careful when having sex or were more intent on not having sex outside of marriage at all. There was a great stigma attached to pregnancy outside of marriage and when abortions were not so available, many babies were put up for adoption after the mothers left their place of origin to go to another city so that no one would know. Now we have unwed mothers with baby showers and all the other special things that used to be given only to mothers and babies born in wedlock.
 
But name calling…
You don’t recall your logic about “sideline” Catholics? I noted that 60% of all abortions in this country involve the poor (per the CDC and NIH), so I was reassured that Christ’s teachings about social justice were still relevant to the problem at hand. I then cited several Gospel passages.

You indicated that was typical pro-abortion garbage. All good progress in the fight on abortion stemed from ‘Catholics like us’. In this thread I have repeated my same argument, but you have revised your statement from all positive progress being attributed to folks like you to ‘the GOP’.

Look at your language, ‘pro life ministry’, conspiring with your enemies… You’ve argued that nothing trumps abortion in the Catholic faith, but your one ‘evidence’ of that specifically notes otherwise…

When asked to explain himself, Jesus pointed to Jonah (Matt 12:39). We normally draw a relationship between things like 3 days, the whale and death, etc. But it is also interesting to look at how many Jewish scholars view Jonah. To them, a relevant message is that Jonah first ran from God. Next, he ran to God. Finally, he ran ahead of God. As Geraurd, the biblical scholar once wryly noted, when we are running ahead of God it still behooves us to periodically look over our shoulder and make sure we are going the right way…
 
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