But... Did Satan really tell the truth?

[petra22]

Now I kind of see it as hind sight is 20/20… The devil said “no, you will not die…” when in fact we do die and it’s a terrible thing to us because all we know is life. When death comes to face you, it is a lot worse than people think because we are so used to being in control and when that day comes, we have to relinquish all that we are–except if we know Jesus who came and died to give us ETERNAL LIFE… but Adam and Eve had no knowledge of that… Since Jesus, WE have that knowledge… and to us it seems like death isn’t that big of a deal. But don’t fool yourself, I’m thinking death is more of a big deal than I like to imagine…

 

[fhansen]

I think G1-22 according to which God says that they have become like gods knowing good and evil, creates the whole problem.You cannot deny what God observed.Excuses such as they did not actually become like gods,the knowledge they got about good and evil was false etc.are only futile attempts.
I have read somewhere that this observation of God was in a sarcastic manner just to mean the opposite.If that is the case,it makes some sense and will avoid the confusion. However for some reasons nobody want picture God as some one whose words will contain sarcasm ,humour etc and hence this view does not appear to find much acceptance. But accepting this view would have been a much better option.

I’ve always read and believed it was sarcasm. Man may’ve wanted to be like God but the distance between the two is the infinite difference between created, finite man and his uncreated, infinite Creator.

 

[jcrichton]

I think G1-22 according to which God says that they have become like gods knowing good and evil, creates the whole problem.You cannot deny what God observed.Excuses such as they did not actually become like gods,the knowledge they got about good and evil was false etc.are only futile attempts.
I have read somewhere that this observation of God was in a sarcastic manner just to mean the opposite.If that is the case,it makes some sense and will avoid the confusion. However for some reasons nobody want picture God as some one whose words will contain sarcasm ,humour etc and hence this view does not appear to find much acceptance. But accepting this view would have been a much better option.

Hi, Joseie!
Asking you to not have such a narrow view of the text of Scriptural passages is not making an excuse.

Your statement directly forces God into a Being of lie, deceit, and betrayal; something to be ponder.

When you step back a little you can see the width of the Word: death does occur summarily. Omniscience is achieved only in very slight moderation (awareness of their nakedness; hiding from God; refusal to accept responsibility for their disobedience); Omnipotence is never achieved.

I understand your reflection on the exegesis given you, yet, would you consider that since we do not know the mind of God any reflection on His “mindset” would be just simple speculation?

…which is exactly what I offer you… my speculation of the Revealed things from the Written Text; when we read Scriptures we must take into account all of Scriptures (both Old and New Testament) not just the particular passage we are dissecting (this is a grave problem with the Jehovah Witnesses and others–they take a verse or two and run with it disregarding everything else).

At one time Jesus said to Simon Peter '…get away from Me, Satan."

Though Scriptures in deed demonstrate this, it would be poor exegesis to think that Jesus’ intention was to Reveal that Peter was the anti-Christ; rather, we must conclude that Jesus was rebuking Peter’s curt and erroneous understanding of what Jesus had just Revealed–Peter’s thoughts were not focused on God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Now I kind of see it as hind sight is 20/20… The devil said “no, you will not die…” when in fact we do die and it’s a terrible thing to us because all we know is life. When death comes to face you, it is a lot worse than people think because we are so used to being in control and when that day comes, we have to relinquish all that we are–except if we know Jesus who came and died to give us ETERNAL LIFE… but Adam and Eve had no knowledge of that… Since Jesus, WE have that knowledge… and to us it seems like death isn’t that big of a deal. But don’t fool yourself, I’m thinking death is more of a big deal than I like to imagine…

Hi, Petra!
Jesus never Taught assuredness of Salvation but that we “Be Alert!.”

When born onto this world we are assured of one thing: we are Spiritually dead because of Original Sin (Adam’s disobedience). When we are Baptized we regain life; yet, since we are living in the flesh we are vulnerable to the concupiscence of the body which, without God’s Grace, would eventually pull and push us into spiritual death. Yet, knowing that in Christ we Live, corporeal life is nothing as is corporeal death–St. Paul puts it this way:

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:21)

Our Life is Christ!

…though we do not know what Revelations Adam and Eve received, after the Fall, we know that God did communicate with them as we have the description of the offerings made by Cain and Abel.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

I think G1-22 according to which God says that they have become like gods knowing good and evil, creates the whole problem.You cannot deny what God observed.Excuses such as they did not actually become like gods,the knowledge they got about good and evil was false etc.are only futile attempts.
I have read somewhere that this observation of God was in a sarcastic manner just to mean the opposite.If that is the case,it makes some sense and will avoid the confusion. However for some reasons nobody want picture God as some one whose words will contain sarcasm ,humour etc and hence this view does not appear to find much acceptance. But accepting this view would have been a much better option.

Knowledge of good and evil was not truly sufficient to become like God, which they learned. They learned about good and evil as shown by the knowledge of their nakedness.

Genesis 3
7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig-leaves, and made themselves aprons.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 7.

And the eyes, &c. Not that they were blind before, (for the woman saw that the tree was fair to the eyes, ver. 6.) nor yet that their eyes were opened to any more perfect knowledge of good; but only to the unhappy experience of having lost the good of original grace and innocence, and incurred the dreadful evil of sin. From whence followed a shame of their being naked; which they minded not before; because being now stript of original grace, they quickly began to be subject to the shameful rebellions of the flesh. (Challoner)

— Behold the noble acquisition of experimental knowledge! This is supposed to have taken place about a week after they had enjoyed the sweets of innocence and of Paradise, that they might afterwards be moved to repentance, when they contrasted their subsequent misery with those few golden days. They saw that they had received a dreadful wound, even in their natural perfections, and that their soul was despoiled of grace, which, of themselves, they could never regain. O! what confusion must now have seized upon them! “Confounded long they say, as stricken mute.” (Milton)

— (Haydock) Aprons, or they interwove tender branches covered with leaves round their middle; a practice, which even the wild Indians and Americans observed, when they were discovered by Columbus. They will rise up in condemnation of those pretended civilized nations, who, like the Greeks, could wrestle or bathe quite naked, without any sense of shame. (Haydock)

— Adam’s fig-tree, in Egypt, has leaves above a yard long, and two feet broad. (Calmet)
**Genesis 3
22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now therefore lest perhaps he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.

24 And he cast out Adam: and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.**
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 22.

Behold Adam, &c. This was spoken by way of reproaching him with his pride, in affecting a knowledge that might make him like to God. (Challoner)

— “These are the words of God, not insulting over man, but deterring others from an imitation of his pride.” (St. Augustine, de Gen. xi. 39.)

— For ever. The sentence is left imperfect: (Calmet)

but by driving man from Paradise, God sufficiently shewed how he would prevent him from eating of the tree of life, (Haydock)

which Adam had not yet found. As he was now condemned to be miserable on earth, God, in mercy, prevented him from tasting of that fruit, which would have rendered his misery perpetual. (Menochius)

— He would suffer him to die, that, by death, he might come, after a life of 930 years, spent in sorrow and repentance, to the enjoyment of himself. (Haydock)

— Lest perhaps. God does not exercise his absolute power, or destroy free-will, but makes use of ordinary means and precautions, to effect his designs. (St. Augustine) (Worthington)

 

[joseie]

Post no 25 (vico) just above:
Confining only to the issue of the acquiring the knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, the scripture verses clearly and unambiguously give the following conclusions which no commentaries can overrule.
1.God didn’t tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire that knowledge. Only Satan disclosed it to them.
2.They actually became like gods, knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

Can the above facts change whether you read the verses in isolation or together with the entire OT.and NT? If so which are those other verses ?

 

[Vico]

Post no 25 (vico) just above:
Confining only to the issue of the acquiring the knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, the scripture verses clearly and unambiguously give the following conclusions which no commentaries can overrule.
1.God didn’t tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire that knowledge. Only Satan disclosed it to them.
2.They actually became like gods, knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

Can the above facts change whether you read the verses in isolation or together with the entire OT.and NT? If so which are those other verses ?

For 1, Satan lied, death was not avoided. (Gen 3:4, 5:5)
For 2. Satan said “for your eyes shall be opened”, and “you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil” and the result was “their eyes were opened”, and “Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil”. The temptation of getting knowledge was presented with the lie about death. “For” means a substitute of knowledge instead of death. That was not true.

Genesis 3
4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil …
Genesis 5
5 And all the time that Adam lived came to nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

 

[joseie]

You (vico) are not answering to my points,but instead telling that satan lied about death,tempted them etc.So I shall take it for granted that you admit those points.
About death also,as I said in the earler post ,since he did not die but lived for the next 930 years ,can satan be said as lying? Iam not telling that God lied in that case,but only that both can be considered as true.Moreover I did not find any other instances also in the entire Bible where satan lied in his words.

 

[Vico]

You (vico) are not answering to my points,but instead telling that satan lied about death,tempted them etc.So I shall take it for granted that you admit those points.
About death also,as I said in the earler post ,since he did not die but lived for the next 930 years ,can satan be said as lying? Iam not telling that God lied in that case,but only that both can be considered as true.Moreover I did not find any other instances also in the entire Bible where satan lied in his words.

Firstly, a lie is not necessarily an untruth, but something used to misleand,
Secondly, the two parts of the sentence must be read together because of the"for". Since you ignored that remark about, I will take it for granted that you do not understand the sentence and that your argument is incorrect.

 

[joseie]

Firstly, a lie is not necessarily an untruth, but something used to misleand,
Secondly, the two parts of the sentence must be read together because of the"for". Since you ignored that remark about, I will take it for granted that you do not understand the sentence and that your argument is incorrect.

Whatever meaning one tries to give to the word ‘For’ appearing in G3-5 ,the fact I pointed out remains as it is which I repeat:
(1)God did not tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire the knowledge about good and evil.Only satan disclosed it to them.
(2)They did not die but became like gods knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

 

[Reuben_J]

Whatever meaning one tries to give to the word ‘For’ appearing in G3-5 ,the fact I pointed out remains as it is which I repeat:
(1)God did not tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire the knowledge about good and evil.Only satan disclosed it to them.
(2)They did not die but became like gods knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

They did die.

Death came to them because of disobedience (sin).

Doesn’t matter they not die immediately after eating the fruit. It was not a poison. Their death was as a result of disobedience to God.

 

[jcrichton]

Knowledge of good and evil was not truly sufficient to become like God, which they learned. They learned about good and evil as shown by the knowledge of their nakedness.

Genesis 3
7 And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig-leaves, and made themselves aprons.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 7.

And the eyes, &c. Not that they were blind before, (for the woman saw that the tree was fair to the eyes, ver. 6.) nor yet that their eyes were opened to any more perfect knowledge of good; but only to the unhappy experience of having lost the good of original grace and innocence, and incurred the dreadful evil of sin. From whence followed a shame of their being naked; which they minded not before; because being now stript of original grace, they quickly began to be subject to the shameful rebellions of the flesh. (Challoner)

— Behold the noble acquisition of experimental knowledge! This is supposed to have taken place about a week after they had enjoyed the sweets of innocence and of Paradise, that they might afterwards be moved to repentance, when they contrasted their subsequent misery with those few golden days. They saw that they had received a dreadful wound, even in their natural perfections, and that their soul was despoiled of grace, which, of themselves, they could never regain. O! what confusion must now have seized upon them! “Confounded long they say, as stricken mute.” (Milton)

— (Haydock) Aprons, or they interwove tender branches covered with leaves round their middle; a practice, which even the wild Indians and Americans observed, when they were discovered by Columbus. They will rise up in condemnation of those pretended civilized nations, who, like the Greeks, could wrestle or bathe quite naked, without any sense of shame. (Haydock)

— Adam’s fig-tree, in Egypt, has leaves above a yard long, and two feet broad. (Calmet)
**Genesis 3
22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now therefore lest perhaps he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.

24 And he cast out Adam: and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.**
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 22.

Behold Adam, &c. This was spoken by way of reproaching him with his pride, in affecting a knowledge that might make him like to God. (Challoner)

— “These are the words of God, not insulting over man, but deterring others from an imitation of his pride.” (St. Augustine, de Gen. xi. 39.)

— For ever. The sentence is left imperfect: (Calmet)

but by driving man from Paradise, God sufficiently shewed how he would prevent him from eating of the tree of life, (Haydock)

which Adam had not yet found. As he was now condemned to be miserable on earth, God, in mercy, prevented him from tasting of that fruit, which would have rendered his misery perpetual. (Menochius)

— He would suffer him to die, that, by death, he might come, after a life of 930 years, spent in sorrow and repentance, to the enjoyment of himself. (Haydock)

— Lest perhaps. God does not exercise his absolute power, or destroy free-will, but makes use of ordinary means and precautions, to effect his designs. (St. Augustine) (Worthington)

Hi!
I think what confuses some is that the serpent promises that if they eat the fruit they will become like God–knowing good and evil; they simply ignore that Satan, the father of lies, is blinding Adam and Eve with lust and partial revelation (like God–knowing good and evil); so he in deed does not lie fully but veils his temptation with enough truth so as to appeal to both their ego and thirst for growth.

Interestingly enough, this same issue does not arise (at least I’ve not experienced it) when reading God’s own Word: “in our Image and Likeness.”

Though the same would apply–God is not suggesting that man will be as God with all His Authority and Power; rather, man would be placed above the created things with the ability to become, in his own capacity, sentient and creative: God’s mini Me.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Post no 25 (vico) just above:
Confining only to the issue of the acquiring the knowledge of good and evil after eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, the scripture verses clearly and unambiguously give the following conclusions which no commentaries can overrule.
1.God didn’t tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire that knowledge. Only Satan disclosed it to them.
2.They actually became like gods, knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

Can the above facts change whether you read the verses in isolation or together with the entire OT.and NT? If so which are those other verses ?

Hi, Joseie!
…you’ve just hit the nail on the head!

…like God–only as far as knowing good and evil, which they quickly demonstrated by becoming sentient enough to know: a) that they were naked, b) that their nakedness would be observed by God, c) to hide their nakedness from God, and d) to pass the buck! :dts::dts::dts:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You (vico) are not answering to my points,but instead telling that satan lied about death,tempted them etc.So I shall take it for granted that you admit those points.
About death also,as I said in the earler post ,since he did not die but lived for the next 930 years ,can satan be said as lying? Iam not telling that God lied in that case,but only that both can be considered as true.Moreover I did not find any other instances also in the entire Bible where satan lied in his words.

Hi, Joseie!
…are you then suggesting that Christ lied about Satan?:

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (St. John 8:44)

…are you forgetting the great failed coup de grass where Lucifer convinced one third of the angels to follow him into a new Universe Order where* he *would be God?

The beauty of Satan is that he uses just enough Truth to veil his contemptuousness for all things God, including Creation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

Whatever meaning one tries to give to the word ‘For’ appearing in G3-5 ,the fact I pointed out remains as it is which I repeat:
(1)God did not tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire the knowledge about good and evil.Only satan disclosed it to them.
(2)They did not die but became like gods knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

What I posted does not deny what God observed such as that they did not actually become like gods, the knowledge they got about good and evil was false etc. It is this which is the issue from you earlier post: “I think G1-22 according to which God says that they have become like gods knowing good and evil, creates the whole problem.” (Note: actually G31-22.)

That is not what creates the whole problem, it is that Satan intended to mislead (which can be done with a factual statement) and then Eve and Adam both sinned. We know that to be the case from what God communicated to the three after the fall.

 

[fhansen]

Whatever meaning one tries to give to the word ‘For’ appearing in G3-5 ,the fact I pointed out remains as it is which I repeat:
(1)God did not tell them that on eating the fruit they will acquire the knowledge about good and evil.Only satan disclosed it to them.
(2)They did not die but became like gods knowing good and evil exactly as told to them by satan.

That’s really kind of funny in a way. If they’d truly become like gods do you think that God-the* real *God-could’ve kicked them out of Eden and conferred on them the other consequences that they’d experience from then on? They certainly didn’t appear particularly god-like after the Fall, cowering in the garden, one blaming the other. Why not assert their god-hood- challenging God’s authority and power to treat them as he did? Why not a War of the Gods?

 

[joseie]

They became like gods(not GOD) is not my invention .It is God:s finding. Don’t question it.

 

[fhansen]

They became like gods(not GOD) is not my invention .It is God:s finding. Don’t question it.

I’m only questioning your understanding of it. Obviously whatever they were bidding for, whatever they wanted to gain by eating of the fruit*, did not come to pass.*

 

[jcrichton]

They became like gods(not GOD) is not my invention .It is God:s finding. Don’t question it.

Hi, Joseie!
No one is questioning God’s Word. We are simply attempting to inspire you to, as that old movie coined, “open your mind.”

You continue to view Holy Scriptures through the “face only” value of the text.

You must allow the Holy Spirit to Inspire you to go beyond our limitations… understand that when God says “they’ll be as/like gods,” just as when He stated “you are gods,” this is in reflection of Him (as in “let’s make man in Our Image and Likeness”); God is not asserting that Adam and Eve became His Equal; God is asserting that they had acquired awareness–knowing, as God, good from evil.

So while I am a miniscule god, I am not Omnipotent, Omniscient, Eternal, Spirit–I have the potential to become what God Created me to Be: His Image and Likeness.

May the Holy Spirit Embrace you in His Love.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Athanasiy]

What is interesting that Adam started to blame God… ‘‘the woman which YOU GAVE ME’’.
Even after those times man seems as if he is not in power to resist the sin.
But Scripture warns in many places that you should avoid the wiles of the Satan.
‘‘Do not let your turn to her ways, do not stray into her paths’’… ‘‘Her house is the way to hell, descending to the chambers of death’’…
king David ignored this when he walked on the roof of the kings house’’ ( maybe he should not have to walk out there with nothing to do. )
Solomon also clouded with his mind when he needed not just 70 wives but 700 wives.
The lies at first seems based on truth and then it becomes disgusting.
Remember how Amnon disgusted his lust. ( ‘‘Then Amnon hated her exceedingly so that** the hateness with which he hated her was greater than love which he had loved her**’’)
So we need to stay awake day and night.
Ps.119:148
‘‘My eyes are awake through the night watches, that i may meditate on your word’’
sin itself even has properties to punish the sinner.
…’‘for i will pour their wickedness on them’’, ‘‘i the lord, search the heart, i test the mind even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruits of his deeds’’,
…Lustful sinners often end up with nothing.
i reminded one more interesting verse from the Scripture…
-’’ you have sown much, and bring in little, you eat, but do not have enough, you drink, but you are not filled with drink, you clothe yourselves, but no one is warm, and who earns wages to put into a bag with holes.’’
sin - robs.
but first the serpent skillfully says the lies which is based on some truth.