But it's not in the Bible!: The Problem with Protestantism

[edwinG]

enanneman:

Edwin, peace be with you, my brother in Christ. I certainly agree with you that we must listen to the Holy Spirit as it moves within us our entire lives. However, cast your eyes across the tens of thousands of Christian denominations. Surely, the pastors and ministers leading their individual flocks feel that they too are listening to the Holy Spirit and letting it guide them to truth. How, then, can you reconcile the differing doctrinal beliefs among the denominations? How can you say that that the pastor of the Lutheran church on Main Street is moved and the nondenominational minister on First Avenue is moved if they teach conflicting beliefs?

The fact is that God did not come down to this earth to walk among us to give us a book. We don’t know of a single word the Lord Jesus wrote with the exception of what he wrote in the ground in front of the crowds who wanted to stone the woman. God came down to earth to give us a church, and upon Peter, he built his church. The apostles spread out across the known world to share the good news, to baptize followers, and show them how to live their lives in Christ. The apostles passed down their teachings to these new followers who passed it down throughout the succeeding generations, and this deposit of faith is what we are blessed with today.

Peace and God bless!

Eric

Isaiah28:7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way,
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink.
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicatiing drink,
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment,
For all tables are full of vomit and filth.
No place is clean.
Whom will I teach knowledge,
and whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precipt,
line upon line, line upon line
here a little there a little
For with stammering lips,
and another tongue,
He will speak to this people
To whom He said. “This is the rest with which
you may cause the weary to rest
and this is the refreshing”.
Yet they would not hear.
Well that from Isaiah answers your question fully. No church has it right. For they all stumble and err in vision. Do you think this message means just a little weenie church and not the church which is supposed to represent the people.
So who is to teach the people, who wont err. The Holy Spirit.
The church has its work and the Holy Spirit has His. The church has moved into the area of the Holy Spirit. And what does God say, Yet they would not hear.
If you can not hear, you miss out on all of the wonderful blessings and more. Thank you I must fly
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Steve_M]

edwinG:

Christ has not left the interpretation to any earthly church. He , through the Holy Spirit provides all truth to whoever seeks it. Now some may know some parts of the truth and some one else may know a different part, no one knows all of the truth, but Christ has work for you each day, and He will reveal the truth to you as you need it in your growth in Him and to carry out His work.
Christ has consecrated Himself to meet your every need in understanding. The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.

If you really believe this, please explain how the Holy Spirit has revealed conflicting doctrine to the various protestant churches. Some believe you have to be baptized, and some believe you don’t. Some believe you can lose your salvation, and some believe you can’t. These are matters of salvation that conflict. They cannot both be correct. Either you have to be baptized or you don’t. Either you can lose your salvation or you can’t. If the Holy Spirit reveals different methods of salvation, then how can you say that Muslims are wrong? Maybe the Holy Spirit revealed another method to Mohammed.

These conflicting doctrines are one of the thing that lead me to begin researching Christian history. It ultimately lead me to the Catholic Church. What found was that virtually all of the Catholic doctrines taught today were taught within the first couple of centuries of Christianity. Some doctrines have developed, such as the Trinity and Marian doctrine, but the method of salvation has always been the same.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

The Bible & The Church : Both or Neither, by Dr. Scott Hahn

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/bbl.html

 

[enanneman]

edwinG:

No church has it right. For they all stumble and err in vision. Do you think this message means just a little weenie church and not the church which is supposed to represent the people. So who is to teach the people, who wont err. The Holy Spirit.
The church has its work and the Holy Spirit has His. The church has moved into the area of the Holy Spirit. And what does God say, Yet they would not hear.
If you can not hear, you miss out on all of the wonderful blessings and more. Thank you I must fly
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

Edwin, I appreciate that you are writing with love in your heart and a desire to speak the truth. But, as a Catholic, I believe in Jesus when he said in Mathew 16:18 that “you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

Christ promised to build a church upon the leadership of Peter and would be with it always, so much so, that not even the gates of hell would overcome it.

If I were to only do as you suggest and no more, then I would be a church upon myself. Locked away from the rest of humanity, studying scripture and deciding for myself the truth it held. This, clearly, is not what the Lord Jesus wished for us. He wished us to join in the fellowship of his children, guided by the church he established.

The peace of Christ be with you.

Eric

 

[RNRobert]

Christy Beth:

Help me out here, I don’t have my bible with me. I believe it was in MAtthew that Jesus told us how to act towards someone we had something against. First, we are to approach that person on our own. If that doesn’t work, take two or three others as witness. And if they *still *won’t listen, to take it before the church. And if that person won’t listen to the church, we are to treat them “like a gentile or tax collector.”

See Matthew 18:15-17.

 

[RNRobert]

Hi Edwin!

You asked if the Pope was in one corner, and the Holy Spirit was in another corner, who would I choose? The problem with that question that is either/or, while Catholics are both/and. Catholics are to listen to the Holy Spirit, of course, and even Popes need to be rebuked at times. However, Jesus gave Peter the Keys to His Kingdom, told him to feed the sheep and lambs, and told him that the gates of hell would not withstand against His Church. Peter’s office continues to this day in the person of the Pope. Have there been sinful popes, and sinful bishops? Absolutely! However, the Holy Spirit protects them, so that they cannot teach error. The various other churches have broken off from the Catholic faith, so they have no guarantee of protection. This guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus gave to His Church. Except for the Orthodox churches, all other churches are less than 500 years old, so they CANNOT claim to be the church Jesus founded. This is how I know that when the Catholic Church speaks, it is “Gospel truth”, and can be sure I’m not led into error.

 

[RBushlow]

edwinG:

Hi,

I am not Roman Catholic so maybe you class me as protestant because I dont hold to the Catholic teaching.

There are other non-Catholic Christians in additions to Protestants. Eastern Orthodox, Jehovas Witnesses, and Mormons, to name a few. What beliefs do you hold? If you hold to the Protestant beliefs (Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura), etc., why deny your beliefs? Don’t worry, no one here is going to attack you for being a protestant, or having any other beliefs. Come, let us reason together.

Dominus Vobiscum. (God be with you)

 

[mayra_hart]

and i quoted from a fundamentalist now catholic: “i have conclude that,concernig scriptural authority, the bible clearly teaches the opposite of what the protestants are tryng to teaches”. you mention the trinity as an example of a doctrine we both ascribe to, yet it is NOT mentioned in the text of scripture. for clarity’s sake, we must distinguish between the teaching of scripture and the mentioning of a specific theological “word” in scripture. i believe the bible does teach the substance of the trinity,even though it does not use the word “TRINITY”. this issue of biblical authority apart from and above all other authority is an entirely different issue. the protestants have used as the basis for their whole system of authority an idea that is NOT only NOT mentioned but NOT taught in the bible-ANYWHERE. if you think that it is, then SHOW ME. bless you all

 

[RNRobert]

mayra hart:

you mention the trinity as an example of a doctrine we both ascribe to, yet it is NOT mentioned in the text of scripture. for clarity’s sake, we must distinguish between the teaching of scripture and the mentioning of a specific theological “word” in scripture. i believe the bible does teach the substance of the trinity,even though it does not use the word “TRINITY”.

I used the example of the trinity because Protestants argue that certain Catholic doctrines (Like Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.) are not mentioned in Scripture. Catholics can point to Scripture to show the Biblical basis for these beliefs, even if they aren’t spelled out in black-and-white. Protestants, by their acceptance of the Trinity, are basically doing the same thing. The point I was trying to make was that Protestants had a double standard.

 

[Bill_Rutland]

Dominus Vobiscum,

Greetings in the name of the Lord. As a former Southern Baptist (I do nor consider myself an EX-Protestant but a fulfilled-Evangelical) I was interested in Edwin’s comments. I would like to consider a few things that he said:

Sola Scripture without the Holy Spirit is missing out on the abundance of life, joy and peace in Christ. Christ sent the Holy Spirit. He should not be ignored, to ignore Him is to ignore Christ.

Although Edwin does not come out and say it, I am assuming that he maintains that the individual believer can rightly interpret Scripture for himself by he leading of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think that those who hold to this position have dealt with its full implications.

To hold that I can rightly interpret Scripture for myself by the Holy Spirit I must also hold that:

1. I can infallibly know the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Because the Scriptures are the written Word of God what they have to tell us is of infinite importance. If I allow my own fallible humanity to taint the Scriptures in my interpretation then I, for all practical purposes, have caused God’s inerrant Word to err. Therefore if I believe that the Holy Spirit is leading me I must be able to discern His leading infallibly. If I mistakenly take my own thoughts for the voice of the Holy Spirit even once, then I have no basis on which I can infallibly discern Him. The Protestant claim to be able to rightly interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit is to become a pope and Magisterium unto himself.

**2. That those who hold a different interpretation than I do are wrong and therefore no not have the Holy Spirit. **

If I claim that my understanding of Scripture is from the Holy Spirit then I must insist conversely that anyone who understands Scripture differently than I do must not be guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore because there are hardly any two Protestants who 100% agree on what Scripture means, the individual Protestant must conclude (to hold the logic of the argument) that he is the only one who hears the voice of the Holy Spirit.

To be fair I know of no Protestant (other than the Jim Jones types) who claim that they alone hear the Holy Spirit’s voice. Yet Protestantism has demonstrated that they can and do disagree on what the Scriptures teach (sometime to the point of breaking fellowship as is witnessed by the thousands of denominations). When I bring up this point many Protestants react with the old slogan, “In the essentials unity, in the rest freedom.” Whereas this may sound good, the truth is that they cannot agree on what the “essentials” are. I was on a Protestant forum not long ago and I asked just what the essential truths of Christianity are. They actually started arguing with each other and in the end the only thing the could agree on was that Catholics are wrong.

In recent years with the growth and popularity of parachurch “ministries” Evangelicals have watered down the “essentials” to the point that they have no idea where to even start in discerning them ( a point that Protestant James White decries at every opportunity). When I challenged one Evangelical on how he could infallibly interpret Scripture he responded that the only really important thing was “our personal relationship with Jesus;” another told me that “doctrine is divisive.”

As a Catholic I am well aware that I bring my own fallibility to bear on Scripture. This is why I look to Christ’s infallible Church for guidance. Her dogmas act as guard rails to keep my Biblical exegesis from running off the straight road into heresy.

PAX CHRISTI

Bill

 

[Origen]

The doctrine of purgatory is clearly supported in 2 Maccabees, one of the books protestants threw out of the bible.

Why was 2 Maccabees thrown out? Because it was in the Septuagint.

Why was the Septuagint invalid? Because it was written in Greek, which Jesus and the apostles did not read or speak, presumably because it was considered a sin to use a pagan language.

Yet modern scholarship rejects the protestant view about Jews not speaking Greek at the time of Christ. For example, the gospels tell us that Jesus conversed with Pilate. But Pilate would not know hebrew or aramaic; he was a secular Roman. Thus it is highly likely that Jesus would have spoken to Pilate in a classical language like Greek. The Passion of the Christ, if you listen carefully, depicts Jesus and Pilate conversing in Latin about truth, or veritas.

Thus, it is entirely plausible that Jesus was a polyglot who taught from the Septuagint, which clearly contains the doctrine of purgatory in 2 Maccabees 12:45.

Don’t let the protestants bully you.

 

[germys9]

edwinG:

. The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.
Walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edwin, you say that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. What exactly does “all truth” mean to you? You forget that the Holy Spirit is the one who lead me to love and embrace the Catholic Church. You act as though it is only the Holy Spirit working if that person is lead to believe what you believe. You also neglect to see how the Holy Spirit lead saints and Christians through the Catholic Church for 1500 years before it supposedly lead everyone in their “own” way. Ask yourself what does all truth mean. I say I am lead by the Holy Spirit and He lead me to Christ’s Church. You say you are led by the Holy Spirit and He lead you to think that we are in error. Is that the Holy Spirit leading into all truth? Not a very powerful Spirit. But if the Holy Spirit can lead an entire church into all truth for 2000 years, WOW, He truly is the Holy Spirit. You are basing everything you say on your own personal feelings or what you have been taught. You have nothing to back up your arguments (biblical or historical evidence). Just keep asking yourself what is “all truth.” If two things contradict each other they cannot both be true. Your God-given reason will tell you that. “All Truth?”

 

[jcrawf]

RobedWithLight:

You are correct in the sense that *Biblos *which may mean record or account is indeed used in Matthew 1:1. However the account/record referred to in the passage refers to the record of the generations of Jesus Christ, a listing of Christ’s ancestors, not the actual holy Bible we now use. Perhaps that is what is meant when we say that the term ‘Bible’ is **not **in the bible. It is not the word per se, but the meaning that Protestants commonly ascribe to the word “Bible” that is **not **present in the Bible.

I agree fully with your last paragraph in any case.

Gerry

Gerry,

Like I said, I didn’t mean to be technical, nor do I now. However, the main point is in the context given in saying, “FJT points out that the word “bible” is not in the Bible, either.” I mainly point this out since the *meaning *or sense of the *term *did not seem to be necessarily implied in the statement. If it were that to find any wordin the Bible would mean to find merely the word ‘alone’, then the obvious remark for a Protestant of a fairly decent education, whether by learning Greek or through the use of a Strong’s concordance, would be able to note that in some way of another, the word ‘bible’ does in fact exist in the scriptures. For me, the argument of saying the word ‘bible’ is not in the Bible did not impress upon me when I was a Protestant anything more than being a rhetorical statement no less true of false than similar sorts of statments I have heard from Protestants in trying to make Sola Scriptura ‘scriptural’. If anything, its a good quote in ‘preaching to the choir’, but it would hardly impress many Protestants.

I agree with you about the difference of meaning between what biblos in Greek means, especially in context of the scripture. Yet I doubt many a Protestant really cares, being that they believe they can justify sola scriptura despite that the Latin term and phrase sola scriptura is found neither in the Latin Vulgate, nor is an English equivalent shown in any modern English translation. On this, then sola scriptura can also be considered un-Biblical and very much a doctrine of Protestantism–whether or not modern Protestants want to claim it as such.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[Hikers5]

Originally posted by edwinG

Christ has not left the interpretation to any earthly church. He , through the Holy Spirit provides all truth to whoever seeks it. Now some may know some parts of the truth and some one else may know a different part, no one knows all of the truth, but Christ has work for you each day, and He will reveal the truth to you as you need it in your growth in Him and to carry out His work.

Edwin,

I’m new to this forum and am fascinated by all of the exchanges in this thread, and feel compelled to add my two cents (for whatever it is worth). What you say above, though, is not scriptural.

1Timothy 3:15 states:
"If I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

This passage clearly states that the church holds the truth, not part of the truth, but the very foundation of truth. It doesn’t even allude to the Bible.

Now, the next question might be, which Church? Well, logically we should look to what the beliefs were from the very beginning and see which church today is most like those beliefs. We are fortunate to have many writings besides the Bible which show what the actual practices and beliefs of the time were. The earliest Fathers, men who actually knew the apostles. We can clearly see a hierarchical church with the pope in primacy, a belief in the Real Presence, Baptism’s saving grace, etc. I would submit that there is one church that has taught all of these things for over 2000 years, unchanged. The One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church!

In Christ,
Hikers5

 

[RNRobert]

Scott Waddell:

So it would seem with total depravity. If a Calvinist says man is totally depraved, would that not include the Calvinist man telling us this? If not, why is his claim beyond depravity and other’s are not?

I was talking to someone once who said he “made no apologies for the total depravity doctrine.” I argued with him, “If you and I are totallly depraved, then how can we have this conversation?”
If we were totally depraved, then we would have no sense at all of right and wrong, and would be unable to discuss it. To me, it would be like trying to explain light to a race of men that lived in total darkness and was unable to see. They simply would not be able to grasp the concept of light.

 

[edwinG]

Steve M:

If you really believe this, please explain how the Holy Spirit has revealed conflicting doctrine to the various protestant churches. Some believe you have to be baptized, and some believe you don’t. Some believe you can lose your salvation, and some believe you can’t. These are matters of salvation that conflict. They cannot both be correct. Either you have to be baptized or you don’t. Either you can lose your salvation or you can’t. If the Holy Spirit reveals different methods of salvation, then how can you say that Muslims are wrong? Maybe the Holy Spirit revealed another method to Mohammed.

These conflicting doctrines are one of the thing that lead me to begin researching Christian history. It ultimately lead me to the Catholic Church. What found was that virtually all of the Catholic doctrines taught today were taught within the first couple of centuries of Christianity. Some doctrines have developed, such as the Trinity and Marian doctrine, but the method of salvation has always been the same.

HI Steve,
Christ gave the thumbs up on the old testament.Surely the difference between scriptures in sincere churches is limited. Now I dont agree with the changes in your bible regarding Marian doctrine, but I dont want to interfere with your belief. But if something differs from these original teachings we should be very careful. Do you think muslim teaching agree with our scripture. They dont even recognise Jesus as Gods son. Why confuse the issues with false truths. One can nit pick till the cows come home.
The Holy Spirit has not given conflicting doctrines to different churches. Man has. Men make money out of the Gospel. Be careful of speaking against the Holy Spirit.
WITH EVER OUNCE OF MY STRENGTH I SAY THAT IF YOU ARE SINCERE THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL GUIDE YOU TO ALL TRUTH> TO THINK HE CAN NOT (IF YOU ARE WILLING) IS TO LACK FAITH. He is God is His ability so deficient. Stop looking at all that is wrong and blaming it on the Holy Spirit. You follow him. if you have faith and want to follow Him He wont let you down. He is GOD. Do you doubt His ability. What is wrong is people go so far then don’t want Him in some part of their lives so they dont accept the truth on that issue. Dont blame the Holy Spirit because man doesnt want the truth on some issues. Anyone is free to cop out any time they want to. But if you DONT COP OUT you can not be lost. These people with different doctrines havent been led astray by the Holy Spirit they have copped out. They want a big congregration maybe so they think of a way to attract people. Who knows, but you can not blame it on the Holy Spirit.
Think how great God is. Christ sent the Holy Spirit. Is Christ wrong? How can anyone believe that God cant save them, if they obey Him. That is sheer nonsense. Stop fearing that you wont understand what the Holy Spirit wants. God is not wrong. He says you can, Christ says you can. believe it.
Christ be with you.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love.
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

enanneman:

Edwin, I appreciate that you are writing with love in your heart and a desire to speak the truth. But, as a Catholic, I believe in Jesus when he said in Mathew 16:18 that “you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

Christ promised to build a church upon the leadership of Peter and would be with it always, so much so, that not even the gates of hell would overcome it.

If I were to only do as you suggest and no more, then I would be a church upon myself. Locked away from the rest of humanity, studying scripture and deciding for myself the truth it held. This, clearly, is not what the Lord Jesus wished for us. He wished us to join in the fellowship of his children, guided by the church he established.

The peace of Christ be with you.

Eric

Hi Eric,
Thanks for you post. Matthew 16:18 and I would like to add,
Ephesians 2:20 “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself,being the chief cornerstone.”
So yes you are right, The church is built on Peter but Peter is not the only rock. The rock is the apostles and prophets.
So you see both scripture passages are right but if you interpret that Peter is the only rock, you are obviously wrong.
again Matthew 16:19 Peter is given the keys to bind and loose and this is true.
Matthew 18:18 all of the desciples are given the authority to bind and loose. and in Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands “Go therefore and make desciples of all the nations.” so do these people have this authority also? If you have scripture for this (one way or another) I would really appreciate it.
The gates quote I think is not “overcome” but 'prevail against"
so John the Baptist was the first and he battered down the gates and people started fleeing from the bondage of satan to the kingdom of God, and because the pathway is narrow people were pressing it to it.
No we are not meant to be a church unto ourselves. We as members of an earthly church have work to do, spreading God’s love and edifying each other and most important loving one another because the world will hate us. I am not suggesting for one moment that we forsake our church, you yours or me mine. But we should each follow the Holy Spirit. Trust in God who is almighty to not lose you.
Christ be with you,
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Steve_M]

edwinG:

HI Steve,
Christ gave the thumbs up on the old testament.Surely the difference between scriptures in sincere churches is limited.

No. It’s not limited. There are difference in the doctrines regarding salvation. That’s not a minor difference.

Now I dont agree with the changes in your bible regarding Marian doctrine, but I dont want to interfere with your belief.

Please tell me what about Marian doctrine is a change to the Bible.

But if something differs from these original teachings we should be very careful.

What you’re saying differs a great deal from the original teachings of the Church.

Do you think muslim teaching agree with our scripture.They dont even recognise Jesus as Gods son. Why confuse the issues with false truths. One can nit pick till the cows come home.

If you believe in private revelation revealing the truth of the scripture, then you’re in the same boat with the Muslims. In case you’re not aware, they believe the Bible. The have a different interpertation of it than do Christians, but they do believe it.

The Holy Spirit has not given conflicting doctrines to different churches. Man has. Men make money out of the Gospel. Be careful of speaking against the Holy Spirit.
WITH EVER OUNCE OF MY STRENGTH I SAY THAT IF YOU ARE SINCERE THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL GUIDE YOU TO ALL TRUTH> TO THINK HE CAN NOT (IF YOU ARE WILLING) IS TO LACK FAITH. He is God is His ability so deficient. Stop looking at all that is wrong and blaming it on the Holy Spirit. You follow him. if you have faith and want to follow Him He wont let you down. He is GOD. Do you doubt His ability. What is wrong is people go so far then don’t want Him in some part of their lives so they dont accept the truth on that issue. Dont blame the Holy Spirit because man doesnt want the truth on some issues. Anyone is free to cop out any time they want to. But if you DONT COP OUT you can not be lost. These people with different doctrines havent been led astray by the Holy Spirit they have copped out. They want a big congregration maybe so they think of a way to attract people. Who knows, but you can not blame it on the Holy Spirit.
Think how great God is. Christ sent the Holy Spirit. Is Christ wrong? How can anyone believe that God cant save them, if they obey Him. That is sheer nonsense. Stop fearing that you wont understand what the Holy Spirit wants. God is not wrong. He says you can, Christ says you can. believe it.
Christ be with you.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is all nice, but you haven’t answered my question. How do you reconcile the different doctrines regarding salvation. Either you have to be baptized or you don’t. Either you can lose your salvation or you can’t. Saying what you think the Bible means is no different than some other protestant church saying it means something else. You can’t both be right when there are conflicts. If you believe you’re right and all the others are wrong, by what authority can you say that? Please answer the question.

 

[enanneman]

edwinG:

Hi Eric,
Thanks for you post. Matthew 16:18 and I would like to add,
Ephesians 2:20 “having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself,being the chief cornerstone.”
So yes you are right, The church is built on Peter but Peter is not the only rock. The rock is the apostles and prophets.
So you see both scripture passages are right but if you interpret that Peter is the only rock, you are obviously wrong.
again Matthew 16:19 Peter is given the keys to bind and loose and this is true.
Matthew 18:18 all of the desciples are given the authority to bind and loose. and in Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands “Go therefore and make desciples of all the nations.” so do these people have this authority also? If you have scripture for this (one way or another) I would really appreciate it.
The gates quote I think is not “overcome” but 'prevail against"
so John the Baptist was the first and he battered down the gates and people started fleeing from the bondage of satan to the kingdom of God, and because the pathway is narrow people were pressing it to it.
No we are not meant to be a church unto ourselves. We as members of an earthly church have work to do, spreading God’s love and edifying each other and most important loving one another because the world will hate us. I am not suggesting for one moment that we forsake our church, you yours or me mine. But we should each follow the Holy Spirit. Trust in God who is almighty to not lose you.
Christ be with you,
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Hi Edwin, it is good to speak with you again. Thank you for mentioning Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, because this passage helps to clarify my earlier passage. Christ became man and walked among us to save us through his church. His concrete and visible church. He is the cornerstone because it is his church. But, as you have stated, he built this church upon Peter. These two passages are not contradictory, as one has to look at each passage in scripture against scripture as a whole. Peter serves as the vicar of Christ. Peter is the agent, the representative, the man who serves in Christ’s physical absence in the day-to-day administrations of His church. The prophets of the past laid the foundation of the church that Christ established, but it is through Peter that he builds the church. And, through Peter, and his successors, the church continues to be built.

You can see it being built by the actions of men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The early church fathers, writing the books of New Testament, the infant Church, centuries later, deciding which books to include and which to exclude. This same Church, led by the Holy Spirit, has guided Christians through the centuries and continues to guide us today.

(continued below)

 

[enanneman]

(continued from above)

But, getting back to the Ephesians quote you mentioned. In my opinion, it meshes well with Matthew 16:18, for the reasons I mentioned above. But, if I understand you correctly, you feel that it contradicts what the Catholic Church teaches about 16:18. My friend, that is exactly the problem we have today. Thousands of Christian denominations, each thinking they know the truth, when others do not. You have said that all church’s have erred and one has to rely on what the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Well, let me tell you about my own personal experience. When I read Matthew 27:46 (“And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’”), I was deeply disturbed because it seemed to me that God left Jesus at the height of his sufferring. For years, this passage troubled me, until the Church taught me that in this verse, Christ referring to Psalm 22, and this passage was transformed into triumphant hope for me. But, if I left it to my own interpretation, I would have remained troubled.

There is one Church that has been in existence since the beginning, built by men who walked with Jesus. The same church that gave us the sacred gospels, epistles and the revelation of our Lord. You and I could toss scripture quotes back and forth all day long, and each of us would think us in the right. That is why it is so important, and indeed, why we are all blessed to have a Church, with a Magisterium, to teach us what is true. I’ll take the wisdom from some of the wisest minds in the past 2000 years to guide me over my weak mind any day.

Peace and God bless.

Eric