But what if she just doesn't like children?

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Kendy:
Sure, but it’s lot easier to love a person when you don’t feel like if you were once in love with that person.

It would be pretty hard to demonstrate that romantic love is not socially induced. But I grew up in a pretty sexually repressed society, and still found myself having overwhelming crushes as a teenage girl. I didn’t need anyone to show me how to do that; it was natural.

Also, romantic love exists in every society even those that try to suppress. And as far as I can tell it seems pretty timeless. There’s no era in human history in which people were unfamiliar with the concept or the powerful emotions. That seems to suggest that there’s something very natural about those feelings.

Again, used correctly, it is one of the greatest joys that God has given us.

Kendy
Used correctly, I agree. Used incorrectly, then it is a form of madness as the Greeks were fond to point out. Could you define repression for me? I hear people talking about being repressed and oppressed and so forth all the time but I’m not always clear obout what they consider repression and oppression. Is all repression bad?
 
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DreadVandal:
Used correctly, I agree. Used incorrectly, then it is a form of madness as the Greeks were fond to point out. Could you define repression for me? I hear people talking about being repressed and oppressed and so forth all the time but I’m not always clear obout what they consider repression and oppression. Is all repression bad?
It actually doesn’t matter what I mean by repressed. I just trying to say that no matter how much people don’t talk about romance, or try to suppress it. It pops up. Haitians spend a lot of time trying to squelch romance and it causes a lot of conflicts, but they are not successful at killing it
 
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Kendy:
It actually doesn’t matter what I mean by repressed. I just trying to say that no matter how much people don’t talk about romance, or try to suppress it. It pops up. Haitians spend a lot of time trying to squelch romance and it causes a lot of conflicts, but they are not successful at killing it
Hatians? Well, I think romantic (erotic) drives and desires should be directed, rather than repressed.
 
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DreadVandal:
Hatians? Well, I think romantic (erotic) drives and desires should be directed, rather than repressed.
Well, at least we agree on one thing:).

Kendy
 
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stinkcat_14:
I don’t think we have enough information to judge whether or not this woman is selfish, or at least anymore selfish than many people who have children.

What are the reasons for not wanting children? I am not sure that we really understand all of the motivations.
I understand what you are trying to say here, but I took the original question to mean that every other reason has been eliminated and the gal “just doesn’t like children”

If there are other motivations, I’d be interested in knowing what they were.

Certainly if a person doesn’t want children, they ought not get married.

If a person doesn’t like the way the children are parented (as suggested in a previous post) then that person must try to see beyond the parenting.

If a person just doesnt like children no matter what, well, then, they need to remember that they themselves did not emerge from the womb at the age of 21. On a more serious note, that type of dislike would concern me greatly.
 
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DreadVandal:
No matter what the conscious motives are, the biological reason for them is procreation. You have just said so. The beautiful thing about being human is that we do not have to be enslaved to our appetites and passions. We can choose to rationally order our activities toward the best ends. Religion doesn’t have to renounce romantic love. Religion just reminds people that romantic love is not the basis for moral decision making.
Yes, from the perspective of evolution people with a low sex drive would not have left many offspring behind and their genetic heritage would not have lived on. The genes we have now are the genes of those who had lots of sex, lots of offpsring etc.

BUT, this kind of argument is very dangerous. Because it makes perfect sense biologically for a powerful male to “capture” many wives, to cheat on the side, and essentially to have as much sex as possible with as many women as possible (especially if his children are going to be provided for by other males). From the perspective of evolution men with such behaviors would have been more successful, and men today would have their genes. If this kind of a behavior has a genetic basis, which to an extent it seems to given men’s very high sex drive, pursuit of many women, and for that matter polygamy.

Biologically the drive is to have sex, not to procreate. People have the sex instinct and desire, and they go at it. Do you think a primitive alpha male was thinking “let me go procreate”, no he had a very powerful physical and emotional drive to have sex, so he would fight to have access to women and would have sex with them when he had those desires. It is more following a physical instinct and an urge.

Think of the very idea of adultery, adultery is having sex with another man’s wife. In the Old Testament men could have concubines and several wives, some did. But adultery is always when a man has sex with a married woman, i.e. he is infringing on the territory of another male.

The idea of powerful males “giving up” women they could have to lesser males who would have monogamous relationships with them IS a social construct and seems to me to be unnatural. Very few mammals are monogamous. Usually there is competition for resources, so the most powerful males take over that territory and wait for the females to come over. Weaker males sometimes NEVER have sex in their lives and don’t get to procreate.

Biologically it all makes sense, women get a high-quality, strong, able male to pass on his high-quality genes (after all women can only have so many babies in their lifetimes). And the powerful male benefits tremendously from the number of offspring he will come to have.

And guess who raises children among most mammals? Females. That is nature for the most part. And I bet that if we lost our culture and government structure and organization, that is how it would be. Powerful males with strength would control everything by virtue of physical strength, there would be very little consideration for the feelings of women, and weak males would have little to no place in such a society.

The whole notion of marriage elevates us above “nature”, monogamy, faithfulness, consideration for women, and now consideration for the emotional bond, the love, the connection between spouses. All these in my opinion are the marks of a sophisticated culture that is far above what is “natural” in the most basic sense.

This is natural for us now, because we’re been raised in this society, these are our values. For people now it is natural to marry out of love, to have love and intmiacy based relationships, to have this be equal if not more important to the goal of starting a family. Procreation is still extremely important, but it is just a part of what it means to be a family. The unity and love of spouses is an equally important part.

And now we live better than human beings have ever lived. Our quality of life is amazing compared to what it was in say Medieval Europe. The difference being especially clear in the lives of women.
 
I have only had time to skim answers, but have not seen this aspect of the question addressed:

I would suggest that she trust God on this one. Maybe she will simply never get pregnant, and if she does, I think she will find that she likes her own children quite well! 🙂 I have an aunt like this. She and my uncle were childless for years, and she was pretty much of the mind that she didn’t really care for children. But when she had her own (and I have no idea if her feelings changed, leading to the child, or if she got pregnant accidentally and that changed the feelings), she found she liked her own so much that she had another one!
 
If there are other motivations, I’d be interested in knowing what they were.
It might be that some people are so scarred from their childhood that having children is a very scary thing. Others don’t know how to love, and this might affect their desire for children. I am just speculating here, so I could be wrong, but my point was that I don’t know if we really understand all of the factors that could make someone not want children.
 
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Kendy:
On the other hand, I have yet to meet a catholic who doesn’t have any problems with something the church teaches. I am not saying that one should dismiss the church. However, I don’t think we should shut our brains off either. Sometimes, I am just not satisfied with the church’s explantion. It doesn’t move me.

Kendy
I absolutely understand. I have many, many questions regarding Church teaching on contraception, annulments, women in the priesthood…but I will defend my Church as well I can to anyone who presents objections. Which is why these forums are so valuable.

I guess what it comes down to for Catholics is: do Iwe believe that the Magisterium speaks for our Lord? I absolutely do believe that, so I must accept all that Jesus commands and declares. Even the hard teachings on divorce, birth control, women priests, marriage. If we dismiss the hard teachings as unreasonable, or too difficult, or not really what God intends, then we are creating God in our own image, rather than conforming ourselves to God’s image.
 
What if I didn’t know that it was a mortal sin not to have children? I always knew that the church taught NFP and encouraged traditional families however I never knew it was intrinsically evil to be married in the church and have no intentions of not having children (or purposly delaying for years the birth of the first child).
So what am I to do now–get an anullment? Force myself to get pregnant? I think both of these things are ridiculous!
Perhaps one of you would be willing to stab at my insides and then I won’t have to worry about this issue at all?
 
What if I didn’t know that it was a mortal sin not to have children? I always knew that the church taught NFP and encouraged traditional families however I never knew it was intrinsically evil to be married in the church and have no intentions of not having children (or purposly delaying for years the birth of the first child).
So what am I to do now–get an anullment? Force myself to get pregnant? I think both of these things are ridiculous!
Perhaps one of you would be willing to stab at my insides and then I won’t have to worry about this issue at all?
 
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DreadVandal:
Well, Europe is in a real bind now due to lack of sexual reproduction. They are losing population. We are moving in that direction. If we continue, then who will pay for social security?
Social security is bankrupt anyway. Anybody who expects to retire and live comfortably on social security is in for a nasty surprise.

Why do you think you have all those elderly folks in their 80’s working as greeters at Mall-Wart? It ain’t because they need a hobby.
By the way, polygamist groups are now jumping on the gay rights bandwagon and arguing that if, legally, society allows homosexuals to marry, then society must allow polygamists to marry as well. After all, whose to say that a girl, girl, girl, boy relationship can’t be mutually fulfilling and unitive?
And dolphins. Don’t forget dolphins. There was that wonan who “married” Flipper in Israel, remember?
Personally, I think that once procreation is severed from marriage, there is no reason for marriage.
BINGO!!! You win a $6.00 cigar and a $50.00 gift certificate to the store of your choice.
I don’t see any reason for society to honor the institution at all. Why not just shack up? There is nothing really keeping the couple together anyway since there is no offspring to bind them together.
Ah. Sweden.
In a way, if everyone just shacked up instead of getting married, society would be saved a lot of headaches and paperwork. A lot of lawyers would be out of business though.
Well, while there is no doubt that the world would be a much better place without lawyers, that’s a heckuva way of getting rid of them.
 
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Dubervilles:
What if I didn’t know that it was a mortal sin not to have children? I always knew that the church taught NFP and encouraged traditional families however I never knew it was intrinsically evil to be married in the church and have no intentions of not having children (or purposly delaying for years the birth of the first child).
So what am I to do now–get an anullment? Force myself to get pregnant? I think both of these things are ridiculous!
Perhaps one of you would be willing to stab at my insides and then I won’t have to worry about this issue at all?
I think what you should do is pray for the grace of conversion. Unfortunately, NFP is not taught very well. My wife and I were somewhat surprised and disappointed in the way NFP was taught to us. NFP is supposed to be the exception to the rule, not the rule. If you read Church documents, they are clear that NFP is only to be used for grave reasons (such as severe financial problems, emotional problems, health, life in danger and so forth). It is not supposed to be the normal pattern. The normal pattern during childbirth years is: have sex, have children…

Pray for conversion. That is all I can say. In the eyes of Church teaching, it would be a grave sin for you to continue from this point and refuse to be open to having children. If you spouse decided he really did want children and you refused to give him children, he could divorce you and would have no problem getting an annulment. So that is something to think about too.
 
I have been praying about it and will continue to do so. Do you think perhaps it is an emotional problem if I would rather stab myself with a rusty spoon than have children? I seriously do not think I could handle the responsibilty and do not think I would necessarily be a fit parent–is that the chance one is to take?
 
I have been praying about it and will continue to do so. Do you think perhaps it is an emotional problem if I would rather stab myself with a rusty spoon than have children? I seriously do not think I could handle the responsibilty and do not think I would necessarily be a fit parent–is that the chance one is to take?
 
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Dubervilles:
I have been praying about it and will continue to do so. Do you think perhaps it is an emotional problem if I would rather stab myself with a rusty spoon than have children? I seriously do not think I could handle the responsibilty and do not think I would necessarily be a fit parent–is that the chance one is to take?
Perhaps you might want to find a good counselor and discuss these things. I don’t think you need to make snap decisions. Of course, all things being equal, emotional disturbances mitigate responsibility. But at the same time, be careful not to use that as a rationalization. I would say that your spiritual director and a counselor/therapist would be the best people to help you sort all of this out.
 
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monina:
Hypothetical situation:

A 20-ish woman is pondering her life, her goals, her aspirations. She hopes one day to find love and marry.

But what if she just doesn’t like children?

I understand Catholic teaching regarding marriage is that if one marries one should be open to children. That is, if one does not like the prospect of having children with her husband one ought not be getting married.

So is this woman doomed to a solitary life if she just does not have a desire to be a mom?

Surely there are thousands of women in this situation. I hate to think of a woman having children if she does not like children…
When you find the right person, you’ll want to get married and have children with them.
 
I too did not care if I had children. I wasn’t against it ever happening, I just didn’t want or really like the children I had met. I always said the best thing about kids was giving them back to their parents. I met a great guy four years ago and married him a year later. Still didn’t care if I had kids, but in defense of marriage, I did care if I had him in my life and did not want to have to live without him. Still feel that way. A year after our marriage I got pregnant by accident. I was ambiguous all throughout the pregnancy. Kind of cool there was so much movement going on in there and really liked how considerate people became, but I packed on 62lbs and felt really dragged out and listless most of the time no matter how healthy I ate and how carefully I exercised. I had a relatively easy labour and delivery and gave birth to a beautiful baby girl. I rested for a few hours (the nurses were getting worried) and then held her for the first time. Now two years later I would rather die than have to live without her. The emotions and love she has inspired within me are so strong that when I have her in my arms I feel whole, but, when she is off and running around I feel a hole where she has taken that giant piece of my heart. I find myself even liking other people’s kids! :eek: I never thought that would happen when I was younger. Who knows, maybe I would have resented a child back then, but, God can change anything. I personally believe that as you grow and the circumstances of your life change, so you may find that things that were once abbhorent to you will be tolerable and maybe even desirable. It is not for us to know only to live, grow and have faith.
As for not getting married because you don’t want kids, I think that’s hooey!! I read the Bible. It doesn’t say God made Eve because Adam was horney and wanted kids. It says he was lonely and wanted a peer.
I personally feel that marriage is not strictly for procreation, it is a vow to love, honour and cherish someone all the days of your lives. I believe God wants us to marry so we have one person to love and who loves us and so that we will always be cared for. This way He has provided for us on Earth as well as in Heaven. If it were not so, why should any man stay married to and provide for any woman past child bearing years? To hear the way some people go on, you would think that once a woman is no longer useful to a man he could cast her aside and attain somone younger. Leaving the older to fend for herself. How sad.
 
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udral:
The idea that society comes before the individual is a very communist idea in my opinion. Here life is about “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” The very purpose of rules is the well being of individuals, and the idea is that individuals who are happy and well off will contribute to society and make it successful.

So far it as worked. Liberal Western societies have been the source of most of the world’s scientific and cultural advances, and we have the most humane living conditions.
I, myself, do not consider scientific and cultural advances to be the prime indicator of a society’s success. Nor would I say that Western society has produced more people who are “happy” and
well off." In fact, more and more individuals suffer from depression and lonliness. As far as the society being “humane,” that is another problem. I would hardly call 40 million abortions in this country humane. It seems that one-third of children conceived in the United States face pretty hostile living conditions.

God bless.
 
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Duchofb:
As for not getting married because you don’t want kids, I think that’s hooey!! I read the Bible. It doesn’t say God made Eve because Adam was horney and wanted kids. It says he was lonely and wanted a peer.
God also told us to “be fertile and multiply.” He did not say, “Get married and love each other and avoid pregnancy if you don’t want any children.”

The Church requires couples to agree to welcome children into their marriage before they are married. It comes up in marriage preparation as well as the wedding itself. A couple would have to lie to the Church on at least two occassions in order to get married without the intention of having children.
 
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