Buying a Catechism

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I read from both the thick CCC and the Baltimore Catechism series when I can but the the CCC has some language I don’t completely understand. I’ve yet to sit down and read the YouCat to give any thoughts on it.
 
If I’m not mistaken, the Youcat is for teens, and it is not watered down but simplified for teens to reach them at their developmental level. The old days of the priest slapping a kids head off are over. I’ve seen priests walk up to teens in mass and confront them before from distracting or horsing around.

The Youcat is like the old Good News Bible, really overly simplified. But many teens are still learning the basics. It’s funny how adults fail to seem to understand human development. The brain is still developing until age 25. I don’t mean just learning, but actually growing physiologically speaking. Different children mature at different times.

A must need for catechists are child development and adolescent development based on studies and theories. Our education systems are based off of it.
 
Crumpy said:
I’m not sure why there is a question here. For an adult reader, they should get the current Catechism of the Catholic Church…Having said all this, I haven’t read the entire catechism.
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I have, and now that I know it was intended as source material for the publication of a new range of local catechisms, I understand why it was such a battle to get through it.

The CCC was made to help bishops teach the Faith to the present generation, but in and of itself it is not a great teaching tool, in my experience. Considering that Catholic teaching hasn’t really changed since the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed in 1954, I think the older, more lay-friendly catechisms are the way to go.

I plan on reading through Baltimore Catechisms #1-3 over the next year or so, myself.
 
Rich_C said:
I have, and now that I know it was intended as source material for the publication of a new range of local catechisms, I understand why it was such a battle to get through it.

The CCC was made to help bishops teach the Faith to the present generation, but in and of itself it is not a great teaching tool, in my experience. Considering that Catholic teaching hasn’t really changed since the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed in 1954, I think the older, more lay-friendly catechisms are the way to go.

I plan on reading through Baltimore Catechisms #1-3 over the next year or so, myself.
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I agree with your comments regarding the clarity of language in the universal Catechism. I am a professor with a background in the biological and physical sciences. Thus, I have little patience for ambiguity and waffling when I read something that is supposed to serve as a teaching tool. Theologians and philosophers speak a different language and write differently then most other people do. When you combine that with the idea that the universal catechism is a translation rather than an original English manuscript, then you can have some issues of clarity.

Have you tried the USCCA? I find it to be much more direct and reader friendly. In addition it has ancillary materials such as study guides and journals to help people study. I actually like it quite a bit. That being said, I have heard nothing but good things regarding the Baltimore Catechism materials.

As I stated above, one of my plans for future formation is to study the Catechism of the Council of Trent along side the current Universal Catechism. Also, the Catholicism for Dummies book is surprisingly well done and deep in its presentation of the faith, despite what its title may suggest.

Peace,
 
You could try a Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

A layperson getting the full CCC? Mind, unless they devote the time to studying it properly and thoroughly, a new edition might be promulgated before they finish it. 😃 Not that it actually makes a huge difference, but it says something when your edition is outdated before you’re done reading it. 🙂
 
Jack_Bauer said:
If I’m not mistaken, the Youcat is for teens, and it is not watered down but simplified for teens to reach them at their developmental level. The old days of the priest slapping a kids head off are over. I’ve seen priests walk up to teens in mass and confront them before from distracting or horsing around.

The Youcat is like the old Good News Bible, really overly simplified. But many teens are still learning the basics. It’s funny how adults fail to seem to understand human development. The brain is still developing until age 25. I don’t mean just learning, but actually growing physiologically speaking. Different children mature at different times.

A must need for catechists are child development and adolescent development based on studies and theories. Our education systems are based off of it.
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I believe that if you read the links provided earlier you will see that the Youcat actually has a lot of problems. Not just a case of being watered down. So many problems in fact that apparently the publishers are either going to ro have already re-called it for corrections.

I wonder if it had an impramater. Not sure I spelled that correctly:blush:
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Well, that’s the kicker, isn’t it? Has doctrine changed in the past 60 years?

Personally, I’d go for whichever Catechism takes the toughest line. Live like a saint and you can’t go wrong. The only thing certain is death. Isn’t the modern notion “Jesus forgives everything all the time so I can sin all the time and still go to Heaven”?

That seems to be the current attitude. Then you look at what the saints did.
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Totally agree.
Jack_Bauer said:
A must need for catechists are child development and adolescent development based on studies and theories. ** Our education systems are based off of it.**
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…and where has that gotten us?

What people, including educators, need to realize is that one doesn’t like eating their vegetables until they get off the cotton candy 24/7.

We need to feed kids educational vegetables, not candy. I look at my DR Bible, and then look at modern translations and I feel stupider than I inherently am. The DR forces me to slow down, think, analyze, apply. It’s not the Reader’s Digest version which is easily skipped through. Same thing with the CCC. I bought the thick one. Why? Well, I want to know what the clergy are supposed to be teaching. I don’t want to be the unwitting victim of bad doctrine which is manipulated by more educated men via what amounts to a middle school understanding on my part. If you want to be knowledgeable, you don’t get there by reading Comic Book Catechism of the Catholic Church.

My dad, in addition to being a former minister in the Baptist denomination, is also a lifelong educator about to retire. He has as much said that the modern education system is flawed and bound to fail. He has specifically said that if he gave his current 6th grade students the same tests he gave his 5th graders from the 1980’s, they’d all fail. Why? Because of the DOE and systems which seek to provide a subtle sense of victimization to children. Hold them to a standard and the cream will rise to the top. Everyone else? Welcome to Trade School. What? You want to be a doctor? Not with a 2.3 GPA. Should have tried harder, Junior.

The caveat is that the material should not be so over one’s head as to inspire misinterpretation of the text.

But a little challenge never hurt anyone. 🙂
 
jonbhorton said:
Totally agree.

…and where has that gotten us?

What people, including educators, need to realize is that one doesn’t like eating their vegetables until they get off the cotton candy 24/7.

We need to feed kids educational vegetables, not candy. I look at my DR Bible, and then look at modern translations and I feel stupider than I inherently am. The DR forces me to slow down, think, analyze, apply. It’s not the Reader’s Digest version which is easily skipped through. Same thing with the CCC. I bought the thick one. Why? Well, I want to know what the clergy are supposed to be teaching. I don’t want to be the unwitting victim of bad doctrine which is manipulated by more educated men via what amounts to a middle school understanding on my part. If you want to be knowledgeable, you don’t get there by reading Comic Book Catechism of the Catholic Church.

My dad, in addition to being a former minister in the Baptist denomination, is also a lifelong educator about to retire. He has as much said that the modern education system is flawed and bound to fail. He has specifically said that if he gave his current 6th grade students the same tests he gave his 5th graders from the 1980’s, they’d all fail. Why? Because of the DOE and systems which seek to provide a subtle sense of victimization to children. Hold them to a standard and the cream will rise to the top. Everyone else? Welcome to Trade School. What? You want to be a doctor? Not with a 2.3 GPA. Should have tried harder, Junior.

The caveat is that the material should not be so over one’s head as to inspire misinterpretation of the text.

But a little challenge never hurt anyone. 🙂
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So, you’re an educator? I see your vast personal studies have taught you all the ins and outs of educations and the flaws of dhild developmental theorists.

Actually, being the child of a preacher really shows the flaw in your own views in my opinion. Children that grow up under the roof of a preacher, as in my wife, have mostly adopted very bleak and very unchristian concepts about God and his children. I’ve seen Baptist preacher names sins while calling out names of children in the pews from the pulpit. My FIL was an elder/bishop. Two of my BIL are preachers. And their relationship with their children are strained for the most part. Why? If they don’t tote the line, they get canned. My SIL won’t even be friends with us on Facebook after friending us. She sees our Catholicity. She’s done the same with her DILs. Why, my own mother wrote me out of the will because of my different beliefs. I don’t call Hispanics whose family heritage is from Mexico the names she used. The irony is that a military Chaplain used her life as “what not to do” with your life.

As far as education goes, the dirty little secret is that the teachers are not doing their job and in fact ignoring the child developmental theorists. I certainly don’t buy into everything they say. I must assume that you do believe in science, don’t you? I was speaking in terms of not just the theorists, the the scientific evidence that the human brain doesn’t completely develop until around age 25. That’s not an excuse to let teens off the hook, but a way to help a teacher,educator understand how to best prepare a lesson plan to reach that particular child when they are struggling.

How many children do you have and how old are they? I have 3 children, one teenager. I see exactly what I’ve learned in all 3 of my children. I remember my own childhood and how difficult it was moving around so much to end up having no childhood friends. My point is that you sound just like a fundamentalist and there is no way you could be wrong because you’ve already tried, judged and convicted the children by the way you’ve taken a black an white stance on them. Hopefully you are not a teacher. My wife deals with many teachers that ought not be teaching becasue of the disposition towards the children. Those teachers are there to exploit the system to their own good, not for the children’s sake. i have many stories to tell. The same is true in military life. Not all young men and women are fit for military duty. But if they get discharged over something stupid, we judge them for life, even though it is very likely a jerk of an officer, NCO or Commisioned, abused their authority. It happens all the time.

If you disagree, then disagree and move on. I don’t need to take up your time or others posting nonsense that won’t change their minds or get them to see things my way. I certainly am not liberal on any table other than Peace and Justice issues in .in line with authentic Church teaching. Giving people excuses is not my place, nor do I support it. I only aim to understand the real world, not this fundamentalist one many choose to overshadow their disagreements with others.
 
Mike30 said:
I believe that if you read the links provided earlier you will see that the Youcat actually has a lot of problems. Not just a case of being watered down. So many problems in fact that apparently the publishers are either going to ro have already re-called it for corrections.

I wonder if it had an impramater. Not sure I spelled that correctly:blush:
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I’m sure it does. I was not defending it, but offering a suggestion from my ignorance of the Youcat. Editorial problems are one thing, but theological or dogmatic errors are another. Personally, books directed towards youth should always be taught as only a glimpse of truth and in need of many corrections that need time, in adulthood study to correct.
 
Bolded yours, mine unbolded
Jack_Bauer said:
**So, you’re an educator? I see your vast personal studies have taught you all the ins and outs of educations and the flaws of dhild developmental theorists. **

When, oh when, did I EVER claim to be an educator? I didn’t. spits your words out of my mouth

My vast experience as a product of modern education is what gives me the authority to say what I say. Theory this, theory that. They’re playing games with the minds of youth. One bad theory eeks in and it ruins ALL subsequent generations until it is taken away.

One only need look at the FRUITS of the modern education system. Rotten, to say the least.

**Actually, being the child of a preacher really shows the flaw in your own views in my opinion. Children that grow up under the roof of a preacher, as in my wife, have mostly adopted very bleak and very unchristian concepts about God and his children. I’ve seen Baptist preacher names sins while calling out names of children in the pews from the pulpit. **

My dad was a very good preacher, within the context of his own misunderstandings of proper doctrine. In fact, he has always encouraged me to research things on my own. His own personal library, including Septuagint, various concordances, etc were never off limits. If he didn’t know the answer, he told me. Were it not for the way my parents raised me, I’d no doubt have a “very bleak and unchristian concept about God and his children”.

My dad actually left the ministry because of the very reasons you mentioned. He was sick to death of the focus on budgets, bottom lines and fiscal goals, instead of souls.
**
My FIL was an elder/bishop. Two of my BIL are preachers. And their relationship with their children are strained for the most part. Why? If they don’t tote the line, they get canned.**

Sounds more like a failure at parenting than anything. My dad had standards, most likely much more relaxed than a “good Catholic” should impose. I didn’t get beaten or ostracized during my periods of youthful rebellion. I was expected to try my best in school, not break the law, and always, always respect my parents. If your BIL’s relationships with their children are strained, it’s no fault of the office they hold, but how they hold the office. Sounds to me like either the children are rebellious or the parents are overly strict.

** My SIL won’t even be friends with us on Facebook after friending us. **

FB is cause for more strain and undue familiarity than anything. I deleted my facebook months ago and it’s amazing what I’ve found in terms of who my real friends are. Do what ya want with the internet, dude, but I fail to see how your family issues on the interwebz has any particular place in the argument.

**She sees our Catholicity. She’s done the same with her DILs. Why, my own mother wrote me out of the will because of my different beliefs. I don’t call Hispanics whose family heritage is from Mexico the names she used. The irony is that a military Chaplain used her life as “what not to do” with your life.
**

My dad actually spurred me along in my quest. Were it not for me being able to go to him with any and all questions, including questions I had on rectifying doctrine of the RCC, I would not be in the Roman Catholic Church. He was initially a minister in the American Baptist Association and for a while was under the impression that the Vatican is evil. Not 5 months ago, when researching doctrine for myself, I called him up and said, “Dad, did you know Catholics believe this!?”. His response? “Yeah, the Catholic Church has some great doctrine. Some I don’t quite understand, but they’re theologically sound.” My mom, the cradle Methodist, has been the one with objections.

**As far as education goes, the dirty little secret is that the teachers are not doing their job and in fact ignoring the child developmental theorists. I certainly don’t buy into everything they say. **

Yeah, dad has a real problem with the lack of effort in education. He has a real issue with theorists, for the reasons I mentioned. They often forsake the foundational basics in lieu of their pet theories. I suppose all those great minds, before all these theories, were just a product of accidental intelligence. The lack of challenge is the issue today. The lack of forcing kids to get beyond their own inherent laziness. My oldest brother is about to achieve his PhD in Educational Theory regarding the implementation of music programs, particularly choral, and how it effects a more studious young adult. If you’d like, I could ask him his opinion on multiple and conflicting theories. The bottom line remains: teach kids the fundamentals, build on those fundamentals, and don’t kowtow to every stupid person who went through a doctoral program for Psychology.
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**
I must assume that you do believe in science, don’t you? I was speaking in terms of not just the theorists, the the scientific evidence that the human brain doesn’t completely develop until around age 25. That’s not an excuse to let teens off the hook, but a way to help a teacher,educator understand how to best prepare a lesson plan to reach that particular child when they are struggling. **

Yes, I believe in Science. It was a college level Anatomy course which kicked my booty into seeking God again. Continuing development is fine. I agree. But, again, it seems like you are painting a broad brushstroke because of “that particular child”. That particular child may have an issue with one part of the lesson, or the entire concept. But that particular child shouldn’t hold back progress of the entire class, which is what so often happens in today’s feel good educational environment. As such, I like the idea of homeschooling and/or a sort of “pushed” at their own pace style. Little Johnny may totally not get Algebra, but look at the kid whiz through Science and History! Excellent. NOW that particular issue can be addressed because the teacher knows there is an issue. Little Johnny might not need to spend an hour on Gettysburg to understand the basics, but he might need 2 hours to understand why 2+X=5 and how to solve for X. What is this? True education. Education is not a theory and it’s not cookie cutter. “That particular child”, well, they need a tutor if their inability to get it holds back others.

How many children do you have and how old are they? I have 3 children, one teenager. I see exactly what I’ve learned in all 3 of my children. I remember my own childhood and how difficult it was moving around so much to end up having no childhood friends.

I have no children. What difference does that make in what we are talking about? None.

** My point is that you sound just like a fundamentalist and there is no way you could be wrong because you’ve already tried, judged and convicted the children by the way you’ve taken a black an white stance on them. **

Fundamentalist? in what context and definition? If we’re gonna throw out labels, please define them.

I am a fundamentalist in the context of returning to fundamentals, but not as the modern evangelical Christian milieu uses the term. I am not into an entirely literal reading of Scripture, or anything, if that’s your suggestion due to my largely Baptist background.

Perhaps “foundationalist” would be a more apropos term, though that too has been appropriated for an alternative definition.

Perhaps, “get back to the basics-alism” would work better.

I can be, and often am wrong though. But I gotta ask, what are the fruits of these theories? These theorists are the ones who took prayer out of school, introduced sex education, allowed Little Johnny to get passed on to the next level despite being below the level he came from, etc. No thanks.

**Hopefully you are not a teacher. **

Nope, never. That would require joining a union in all likelihood. Better dead than red.

**My wife deals with many teachers that ought not be teaching becasue of the disposition towards the children. Those teachers are there to exploit the system to their own good, not for the children’s sake. **

Yeah, dad don’t like those types either. He expects kids to actually learn the material and he helps way more than he should have to due to the lack of parental involvement. His new teammate who teaches Math is one of his former students. She was set up to work for her dad’s law firm and decided she had a passion for education. He’s going to be happy to leave his team in her hands when he leaves the field for retirement.
 
** i have many stories to tell. The same is true in military life. Not all young men and women are fit for military duty. But if they get discharged over something stupid, we judge them for life, even though it is very likely a jerk of an officer, NCO or Commisioned, abused their authority. It happens all the time.**

Well, I was in the Army for 6 years and served in assignments ranging from combat to recruiting duty. I exited the Army as a Sergeant and dealt with many chapter cases along the way. It was very hard to discharge anyone over something “stupid”. In combat arms, my side of the house, we really preferred to not go that route if at all possible. A common thing I’d say to my guys when they messed up was, “Paper or pushups?” I simply didn’t want to ruin some guy’s career because he had a case of the stupid. I have had a case of the stupid. I chose pushups, always.

You’re speaking in generalities though. I can tell you this, I’ve never seen someone get discharged over “something stupid”. Let’s compare it to the Church… Anyone ever been ex-communicated over “something stupid” without canon law and many chances to recant? Same thing with discharges. It’s often not something stupid, but many stupid things which build a pattern of behavior. The final straw might be “something stupid”, but believe me when I say there were many other determining factors. No one is able to be kicked out of the Army unless that chapter is IAW (In accordance with) the UCMJ.

If you disagree, then disagree and move on. I don’t need to take up your time or others posting nonsense that won’t change their minds or get them to see things my way. I certainly am not liberal on any table other than Peace and Justice issues in .in line with authentic Church teaching. Giving people excuses is not my place, nor do I support it. I only aim to understand the real world, not this fundamentalist one many choose to overshadow their disagreements with others.

Liberal on Peace and Justice issues in line with authentic Church teaching… means, what?

Every time I hear “peace” and “justice” linked, I automatically think liberalism with marxist tendencies, if not outright marxism under the guise of “love” and “charity” i.e. the continuation of the victim mindset.
 
Gentlemen,

Might I politely suggest that we are straying from the topic at hand?

Peace,
 
jwinch2 said:
Gentlemen,

Might I politely suggest that we are straying from the topic at hand?

Peace,
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You’re right. I should have hit the “hurt feelings” button, like a real man. :rolleyes:

Back on topic:

Here are some previously mentioned versions with a small description, and unmentioned:

angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/7087/catechism-of-the-council-of-trent

angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/4004/baltimore-catechism-number-3

angeluspress.org/oscatalog/item/8132/illustrated-catechism-for-little-children
(theory dictates that the above is at a high school level for modern chil’rens.)

I have found great success with the current edition, personally. However, I do plan on doing a comparative study, for better understanding, with older editions.
 
Jack_Bauer said:
I’m sure it does. I was not defending it, but offering a suggestion from my ignorance of the Youcat. Editorial problems are one thing, but theological or dogmatic errors are another. Personally, books directed towards youth should always be taught as only a glimpse of truth and in need of many corrections that need time, in adulthood study to correct.
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Thats one reason the Baltimore Catechism was so good and has lasted so long. It was directed at youth and written in a style and manner very easy for them to understand. Yet it presented the Doctrines and Dogmas of the faith very clearly, albeit a bit boringly. With Youcat it doesn’t seem that there are just editorial problems, but an attempt to present views on some subjects, homosexuality, contraception, abortion, premarital sex, masturbation etc., that are not in line with Church taching. Whether that is the result of bad translations, indifference or whatever, who can really say. They should have been caught before it was ever published.
 
MrZetterlund said:
I’m making this thread with apologies to po18guy Since he bought me a Catechism prior to my conversion and I lost it… I just want you to know I am SO SORRY po18guy!! I was reading it in my night-school class last year and one night it never made it home with me. 😊 But it was very effective in my conversion, and, needless to say, I wish to replace it. Thank you very much po18guy, you have contributed a great deal and have been very sincere in my conversion to the Roman Catholic Church.

So, which Catechism is the best? Which would my reader recommend? Thank you, and God bless…
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catholiccompany.com/catechism-catholic-church-osv-hc-sc-p1001016/

This is the best, and I cannot understand why anyone would choose an earlier edition. 👍
 
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