Buying organic, local, and fair trade etc

[AHapka]

Probably “Property Owners Association”

Ahh…they are homeowners associations around here. Personally, I think they are stupid. I live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood without any of that.

Banning something as simple as a garden is just an excuse for power hungry people to run other people’s lives to satisy their own lust for power. Plus I’ve heard horror stories of how it turns neighbors into snoops on each other. Not for me…

 

[chewchoo]

Ahh…they are homeowners associations around here. Personally, I think they are stupid. I live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood without any of that.

Banning something as simple as a garden is just an excuse for power hungry people to run other people’s lives to satisy their own lust for power. Plus I’ve heard horror stories of how it turns neighbors into snoops on each other. Not for me…

exactly… i don’t understand why they are at the top of the list. while there are good things in that list, they make the whole thing suspect in my book.

 

[SeekerJen]

exactly… i don’t understand why they are at the top of the list. while there are good things in that list, they make the whole thing suspect in my book.

I suspect the list’s definition of “neighborhood association” is different from suburbia’s definition. I’m guessing the authors of the list envisioned a group of neighbors who look out for and take care of one another, not a neighborhood busybody group with nothing better to do than measure grass lengths and check to make sure house trim is up to code colors.

 

[chewchoo]

I suspect the list’s definition of “neighborhood association” is different from suburbia’s definition. I’m guessing the authors of the list envisioned a group of neighbors who look out for and take care of one another, not a neighborhood busybody group with nothing better to do than measure grass lengths and check to make sure house trim is up to code colors.

i would hope so, but the details of the intent are missing.
looking at some of the text of the site it says

In the first place, we would do well to make a few definitions of the chief terms we will be using, and especially of capitalism. Too often this word is left undefined, and each person gives it some sort of connotation in his mind, good or bad, depending on his own beliefs, but never clearly defined.

just looking at the list, some of the items are undefined. that’s all i’m saying.

 

[1ke]

**
but then those animals are not to be sold as organic meat (I think until a certain amount of time has passed).**

No, not just for a certain amount of time. They cannot be sold as organic. Ever. (On the honor system).

 

[1ke]

i think the operation you are refering to was never ceritfied orgainc in the first place…if the operation can not meet the standards then it is not certified no matter how much the operator claims it to be.

You are incorrect.

Aurora Organic Dairy is certified organic. It is also certified Kosher.

Case Vander Eyk was definitely certified organic, and they lost that certification last year.

if i didn’t know better i would guess you work for mosanto.

That is an absolutely bizarre conclusion to draw.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

No, not just for a certain amount of time. They cannot be sold as organic. Ever. (On the honor system).

Thanks, I wasn’t sure. I’d also have to look into the rules here (Canada)… things may be different.

 

[1ke]

But not every conventional farm uses them though from what I have read.

You are correct. Many do not. My DH says he “wouldn’t want anyone giving me a shot in the butt to make me work harder, so I don’t do that to my cows.”

Most of the smaller ones can;t afford to give hormones.

Actually, I believe Posilac (rBGH) is pretty affordable for any size operation, but now that so many consumers are rejecting products with it and many businesses have stated they will only take rBGH free products, Monsanto is in a tizzy. It’s very lucrative for them. But, DH thinks it is a good thing that rBGH is on its way out of vogue.

 

[Guitar]

Organic farming is also the honor system in this country. The government does not inspect organic farms for violations of practices. Only if a complaint is lodged. Many watchdog groups have “caught” farms that claim to be “organic” using non-organic methods. This is an “organic” farm dairy in Colorado, but it operates like a conventional dairy-- it has over 1,000 cows, doesn’t give them access to pasture, etc. People get caught around here all the time not adhering to organic standards. Nothing is done.

Don’t be fooled by the “organic” label. It is mostly marketing. There are honest farmers and there are good reasons to consider organic vegetables, but if people think they are supporting mom and pop, happy cows running free in the fields, and “sustainable” agriculture by buying organic-- guess what… you’re not. It’s big business.

Agree with your point but where I am from there is a strict accreditation system and if you don’t pass it, you can’t use the “organically certified” logo and that takes away nearly all your marketing advantage if you’re not “legit”.

 

[Guitar]

in my opinion it is unsound to say “factory” farms are inhumane in the treatment of animals…sometimes this view (factory farms are cruel)is taken by those who give the animals almost human traits.

Not everyone who objects to factory farming is guilty of anthropormorphising, I can assure you. Some certainly are, but many are not. There is a lot of ground between the extremes of insisting animals must be treated like humans and dismissing all concerns for their welfare on the basis they are not humans.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Not everyone who objects to factory farming is guilty of anthropormorphising, I can assure you. Some certainly are, but many are not. There is a lot of ground between the extremes of insisting animals must be treated like humans and dismissing all concerns for their welfare on the basis they are not humans.

**
Right. Since I am the one who started this thread, I just want to be sure that you all know I do not elevate animals to human status, but do think they deserve to be treated humanely. They too are God’s creatures and do not deserve to live terrible existences just to serve us.**

 

[maria29]

I think if we’re talking about chain stores Whole Foods does a good job of buying from local farms and selling it in their stores. Even if I didn’t work for them I like their policies of giving women in poor countries money to start their own business, offering animal compassion seminars to farms, and being able to track and inspect where every item and indgredient came from.

For your produce and veggies to remain organic at a grocery store they must not of touched any conventional produce at all. So if an employee handles organic and the touches a conventional piece that item is no longer organic and cannot be sold as such. Organic veggies should always be on top when in a cold case and the mists come on because other wise any pesticides drip down onto it again rendering an organic unsaleable.

 

[fbl9]

That is an absolutely bizarre conclusion to draw.

“a lot of the public “precepetion” of organic vs conventional farming/products is marketingnot fact”…basically this sounds a lot like there is no difference in organic vs conventional…the only good thing about orgainc produce is how it is marketed not how it is produced…
so accordingly one can very easily draw the conculsion you think that organic produce is just a market ploy,not truth.which is something a good employee of monsanto would say.

 

[fbl9]

Guitar and Ferando’s Wife.
i have heard this statement about factory type farms too many times being used by the exteme aniaml activists. so when i hear it i assume this is the source. Sorry for offending you both…
in my area we do have a factory farm and from what i do really know(i know the people that work there) the animals are cared for…

 

[Guitar]

Guitar and Ferando’s Wife.
i have heard this statement about factory type farms too many times being used by the exteme aniaml activists. so when i hear it i assume this is the source. Sorry for offending you both…
in my area we do have a factory farm and from what i do really know(i know the people that work there) the animals are cared for…

Hi fbl9.

I’m not offended, but hey thanks for posting. I read a lot of “animal issues” stuff daily and I am well and truly aware that the extremists and anthropomorphisers (I spelled it right this time!) are out there … even though I often agree with the ends they’re trying to achieve, I wish they were trying to achieve them for saner and more balanced reasons. I am from a farm and farm country and unlike some people I do believe it is possible to have humane farming. (Even if I personally would prefer to keep sheep and chooks as companions rather than dinner. )

 

[puzzleannie]

I think those are beneficial things to do, but don’t know if I would put a moral imperative on them. For instance, I buy organic fair trade coffee for home, when I can get it, emphasis on the first because it really is better for me, but that is one cup a day. Most of my coffee drinking is at work or elsewhere, where I suppose they get their coffee from the local grocery or restaurant supply house, so my choice is not going to make much impact or moral difference that I can see.

This is one of the farming hotspots in the nation, but most local produce is picked and shipped the same day, and except for citrus little of it is for sale locally, and even farm stands get most of their produce from the wholesalers just as the grocery stores do, and except on occasion we will not see local broccoli, cabbage etc. And at least here I know of no organic producers, so I would rather buy organic from someplace else, than pesticide laced from here. So I don’t think I can apply a moral standard to that decision, simply a prudential one.

 

[puzzleannie]

. I am starting on #3 a little (anyone know a good butcher in the Southfield area?).

).

I gotta believe you are surrounded by good kosher butchers.

 

[1ke]

“a lot of the public “precepetion” of organic vs conventional farming/products is marketingnot fact”…

Yes, public perception is based on marketing. Not just for organic foods, but for just about everything.

It’s based on marketing, carefully crafted, not on facts. The antibiotics is a perfect example. Organic marketing campaigns have **implied **that conventional products have antiobiotics in them-- which is not true. That makes people want organics not on their merits but in fear of conventional products. Again, based on subtle marketing implications NOT on any actual facts about conventional products.

basically this sounds a lot like there is no difference in organic vs conventional…the only good thing about orgainc produce is how it is marketed not how it is produced…

I did not state that. In fact, I stated in another post that there are good reasons to buy organic produce.

so accordingly one can very easily draw the conculsion you think that organic produce is just a market ploy,not truth.which is something a good employee of monsanto would say.

No, one cannot easily draw this conclusion from what I stated.

I did not state organic products are a “marketing ploy.” I stated people’s **perception **of organics vs conventional are shaped by marketing and not by facts.

 

[aurora77]

I don’t see buying organic as a moral issue–to me it’s a disposable income issue. I don’t think that anyone who is really poor and has to watch their grocery budget really closely is going to be able to buy organic food, at least not from bigger grocery stores. We don’t have a Whole Foods type store around here, so those may be different, but the cost of organic food is so prohibitive for most buyers.

I think the same thing goes for buying fair trade goods. They are just out of reach for many consumers.

When it comes to buying locally, I try to do that when possible. I won’t support local business that aren’t particularly good (like restaurants) just because they are local, though. I also am not going to spend lots of extra money in order to support a local business.

The biggest thing I struggle with is the treatment of animals on large factory farms. It honestly sickens me. Yes, they are just animals, but treating them in unnatural ways really bothers me. I haven’t resolved the issue in a satisfactory way for me. DH is a die hard carnivore and buying organic would, again, be completely out of reach for us.

I really think that if people are concerned with the treatment of animals, they really only have a few choices–raise their own animals, so they know how they’ve been treated. Buy from someone they know and trust. Take up hunting and eat wild animals. Or, give up meat entirely. I could go mostly veg*n really easily, DH never. Our dream is to someday have several acres of land and raise a cow and a pig each year for our meat. We’ve gotten both from my aunt and uncle before and the meat is just soooo much better. Until then, we’ll keep on doing what we’ve been doing.

 

[1ke]

The biggest thing I struggle with is the treatment of animals on large factory farms. It honestly sickens me. Yes, they are just animals, but treating them in unnatural ways really bothers me.

What is your definition of a “factory farm” and how are animals being treated in ways do you object to?