By faith alone, a catholic misunderstanding

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Actually, that’s not the full teaching of the Church:
2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
Don’t start with David it will just derail the thread. I appreciate your posting this supplemental information, but you will never convince him! It will benefit the other readers, though. If you search his other posts, you will understand.
 
Originally Posted by **jjsmity **
right protestant language to say works, really meant sacraments to a catholic.
=guanophore;12475261]I think I am still confused. When Protestants accuse Catholics of believing we are saved by “works” they mean we believe we are saved by participating in Sacraments? :eek:
I’m confused by this, too, as one might expect.

Jon
 
I’m confused by this, too, as one might expect.
It would be strange though for a Catholic to affirm: “We are not saved by participating in the Sacraments.” It seems that many have been saved by participating in the sacraments, particularly baptism. Not that this is a sufficient condition for salvation, as faith is necessary first.

The confusion (I think) starts if someone insists that the outward sacramental form is required for salvation. That is not always true of baptism: baptism of desire; baptism of blood; and the hope of baptism for infants. It is not always true of the Eucharist: desire to receive, explicit and implicit.

Anyway, all of the sacraments are grounded first and primarily in faith, whether it be the faith of the individual or of the Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Catholic Church. It is a work, whether it be through the sacramental form of water or through desire or through martyrdom. It is worthless without faith; not possible without faith in most cases. And faith is not possible without God’s grace. So once again, God saves.
 
It would be strange though for a Catholic to affirm: “We are not saved by participating in the Sacraments.” It seems that many have been saved by participating in the sacraments, particularly baptism. Not that this is a sufficient condition for salvation, as faith is necessary first.
**
The confusion (I think) starts if someone insists that the outward sacramental form is required for salvation.** That is not always true of baptism: baptism of desire; baptism of blood; and the hope of baptism for infants. It is not always true of the Eucharist: desire to receive, explicit and implicit.

Anyway, all of the sacraments are grounded first and primarily in faith, whether it be the faith of the individual or of the Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Catholic Church. It is a work, whether it be through the sacramental form of water or through desire or through martyrdom. It is worthless without faith; not possible without faith in most cases. And faith is not possible without God’s grace. So once again, God saves.
This is not even my confusion, though I see your point, I have trouble even seeing the sacraments as “work”.

Would a person who asserts that sacraments are “work” think that Jesus telling the blind man to "go wash in the pool’ of doing a work that produced his own healing?

Or those who waited by the pool for an angel to stir the water so they could jump in and be healed, is that a 'work"?

I was meditating about this in the light of the reading today from Ezek. 47. If Salvation flows from God like the River of Life, is going into that water a “work”?

I just can’t wrap my mind around the notion that moving oneself so that one is standing under the waterfall of grace pouring down constitutes some sort of “work”. Especially since we can’t even do that apart from grace!
 
I think I am still confused. When Protestants accuse Catholics of believing we are saved by “works” they mean we believe we are saved by participating in Sacraments? :eek:

Ok, that helps me get my bearings.

Col 1:24
“Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”

Since we would both agree that Christ alone could purchase our eternal salvation, and that we, by works, ,can add nothing to the redemption He purchased, what is Paul talking about here?
generally yes, that it is needed to participate in them to be saved. Some would just say “being good” following 10 commandments etc as well.

Great, thanks for interest as well.

I would say without looking into or studying, he is saying like he often says he is or is willing and does suffer in the body [physical] for the sake of christ and believers.
Can you give an example?

For Priests to teach about salvation? how so?
st peters wallingford vt christ the king rutland vermont. a church in konsha Wisconsin, oothers as well.
 
Hello JJsmity.

QUOTE=jjsmity;12475212]

Glad to be here thank you very much.

just as with any church teachings. BTW priest are teaching salvation in catholic church as protestants in some cases, I know it may be against church official doctrine…

disagree fully, I ma sure that will come up on the book of james/salvation thread.
I think at this point it would be appropriate to ask what you consider works? Is this simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, forgiving offenses, etc. or do you also have other things you consider works that you see as following your salvation? Also key to this discussion is whether or not you consider the Catholic Sacraments as works and if so are all of them works or are there some you’d consider acceptable while others not? And if not, why not? Also important is a list of things you would consider falling outside the realm of works, prayer, worship, fellowship, etc.

These question are necessary for the rest of us to understand exactly your particular issues with Catholicism and where we converge and where we diverge. That way, we can better understand and reply to your questions. I hope you answer them completely.

Glenda

Great post and questions.

what are works to a Protestant?

sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross. Accepting his free gift,repentance,asking forgiveness,prayer,worship,baptism,eating bread/wine/confession to priest I would all say are not works unless done to achieve or gain merit to keep the salvation. If they happen simply to please god or as form of worship, than I would not qualify them as “Works”. But if they are done so as to allow god to save or gain merit, than they would be works as anything added to jesus work is unneeded and opposite of grace.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Ephesians 2:8

“not by works, so that no one can boast”
2.9
 
Why did Jesus wash His disciples feet? He was teaching us how to serve, and to perform tasks that no one else will do. To serve is doing something for the benefit of another and shows the deepest level of love and humility.

Christ instituted the sacraments to us and they are gifts to us. He became like us so that all things might be accessible to us. The bread and wine don’t become the Body and Blood of Christ simply because we believe it, they become the Body and Blood of Christ regardless of whether we believe it or not. The sacraments are not to be given to those who do not believe. One who says Amen and doesn’t believe has lied. One must seek the reason to believe before receiving.

The sacraments nourish us, strengthen us and express faith. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in the Church.
 
what are works to a Protestant?

sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross.
And where do you find this in Catholic Church teaching…That is…that by such participation we are adding to the Cross?
For if you do not find this in Church teaching, aren’t you arguing something that does not exist?
Accepting his free gift,repentance,asking forgiveness,prayer,worship,baptism,eating bread/wine/confession to priest I would all say are not works unless done to achieve or gain merit to keep the salvation. If they happen simply to please god or as form of worship, than I would not qualify them as “Works”. But if they are done so as to allow god to save or gain merit, than they would be works as anything added to jesus work is unneeded and opposite of grace.
So - what you are saying is that it is not the action, but the intent of the heart that determines if something is a “work” or not.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Ephesians 2:8
“not by works, so that no one can boast”
2.9
These sound quite convincing in isolation - yet when looked at in the fuller context of the NT…they take on a different meaning and significance.

Consider for example that “Faith alone” cannot be alone since Paul Himself says that Faith without Love is worthless. One might argue that works are a result of faith and proof of a living faith…but Paul’s statement in 1 Cor 13:1-13 clearly delineates Faith, Hope, and Love as three distinct items and requires faith AND Love…
Thus does “Faith alone” fail as an argument.

Peace
James
 
Hello tdgesq.
… It seems that many have been saved by participating in the sacraments, particularly baptism. Not that this is a sufficient condition for salvation, as faith is necessary first.… Baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Catholic Church. It is a work, whether it be through the sacramental form of water or through desire or through martyrdom. ** It is worthless without faith**; **not possible without faith in most cases. ** And faith is not possible without God’s grace. So once again, God saves.
I’ve highlighted the parts of your comments that I’m having trouble with. I can gather from these comments that you don’t believe in infant Baptism because faith makes Baptism bear fruit and is necessary before baptism can happen? or something like that. Can you explain what you mean please.

I also noted your comment that grace precedes the faith that actuates the salvation contained in Baptism. Do I have this way you see it correct? Grace first, then faith, then Baptism. Right? Let me know.

Glenda
 
Hello JJsmity.
I think at this point it would be appropriate to ask what you consider works? Is this simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, forgiving offenses, etc. or do you also have other things you consider works that you see as following your salvation? Also key to this discussion is whether or not you consider the Catholic Sacraments as works and if so are all of them works or are there some you’d consider acceptable while others not? And if not, why not? Also important is a list of things you would consider falling outside the realm of works, prayer, worship, fellowship, etc.

These question are necessary for the rest of us to understand exactly your particular issues with Catholicism and where we converge and where we diverge. That way, we can better understand and reply to your questions. I hope you answer them completely.

Glenda
Great post and questions.

what are works to a Protestant?

sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross. Accepting his free gift,repentance,asking forgiveness,prayer,worship,baptism,eating bread/wine/confession to priest I would all say are not works unless done to achieve or gain merit to keep the salvation. If they happen simply to please god or as form of worship, than I would not qualify them as “Works”. But if they are done so as to allow god to save or gain merit, than they would be works as anything added to jesus work is unneeded and opposite of grace.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Ephesians 2:8

“not by works, so that no one can boast”
2.9

Thank you for the response. So I can conclude that if we expect to say receive the Blessed Sacrament so as to gain something, anything at all really, then we are doing a work you would consider not in keeping with your view of justification and that would detract from God’s salvivic works on the Cross? So receiving Holy Communion is a work to you, as is Confession and both detract from your view of being justified by God’s salvation. Does that sum it up?

But on the other hand, you’d accept a Catholic going to Confession or receiving Holy Communion as “a form of worship” as acceptable? Or if they do so in an attempt to “please God,” it would also be acceptable to you? Is this it?

I hope you respond again. It helps.

Oh and what about all the other works I mentioned - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, etc. These specific works are mentioned by Jesus as reasons He separates the goats and the sheep, (see Matthew 25:31 to 46.) so I’m seeing a certain necessity in doing these things as signs of our Christianity in society as a whole and also that these are the works we will be judged upon as having lived a Christian life. Can you comment?

Glenda
 
I think at this point it would be appropriate to ask what you consider works?
On the contary since you are asserting that Catholics believe they are saved by works, it is incumbent upon you to define your terms. What is “salvation”? What are the “works” by which you believe Catholics think they are saved?

But I will offer this perspective:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.Eph. 2:8-10

Catholics believe that we are saved "for hagios ergos (good/holy works). Although the deeds that God has prepared beforehand are not the basis of our salvation, they are intracately connected with it (cannot be separated from it).
Is this simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, forgiving offenses, etc. or do you also have other things you consider works that you see as following your salvation?
Jesus was clear that we would be judged on these actions.

The Apostles taught that salvation is only completed when we are judged, and the works are part of the judgement, which is why we consider them connected to salvation.
Also key to this discussion is whether or not you consider the Catholic Sacraments as works and if so are all of them works or are there some you’d consider acceptable while others not?
A response to this would require that we define the nature of “Catholic Sacraments”.
And if not, why not? Also important is a list of things you would consider falling outside the realm of works, prayer, worship, fellowship, etc.
I don’t know of any such list that exists, and I fail to see why it would be important to have one. The Apsotle writes that the works we are to do have been predestined for us.
These question are necessary for the rest of us to understand exactly your particular issues with Catholicism and where we converge and where we diverge. That way, we can better understand and reply to your questions. I hope you answer them completely.
Perhaps these are not your words, and you don’t know how to set them apart from your own text?
sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross.
Is this your understanding of a Catholic Sacrament?
Accepting his free gift,repentance,asking forgiveness,prayer,worship,baptism,eating bread/wine/confession to priest I would all say are not works unless done to achieve or gain merit to keep the salvation.
What is “merit”?

What does it mean to “keep the salvation”?
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If they happen simply to please god or as form of worship, than I would not qualify them as "Works". But if they are done so as to allow god to save or gain merit, than they would be works as anything added to jesus work is unneeded and opposite of grace.
This is helpful in clarifying. So do you not believe that the things God has commanded for us as pleasing and forms of worship will make us more worthy of our calling, and keep us in His grace?

Do you think it is possible for a person to lost their salvation?
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 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Ephesians 2:8

“not by works, so that no one can boast”
2.9
The fact that works are included in our salvation does not meant that they are the basis or the means by which we are saved. The works are produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit.
 
It would be strange though for a Catholic to affirm: “We are not saved by participating in the Sacraments.” It seems that many have been saved by participating in the sacraments, particularly baptism. Not that this is a sufficient condition for salvation, as faith is necessary first.
The Church cannot grant baptism without a profession of faith.

We also may see salvation differently. We believe that we are saved in baptism, but unlike those who have been contaminated by the heresies of Calvin, we do not think the nature of sin has changed. Sin continues to separate us from God, an after baptism, mortal sin will separate us from our heavenly inheritance.

A Sacrament is a ritual through which God’s grace is offered. Yes, we believe we cannot be saved without His grace, and that we choose to participate in accessing that grace by faith.
The confusion (I think) starts if someone insists that the outward sacramental form is required for salvation. That is not always true of baptism: baptism of desire; baptism of blood; and the hope of baptism for infants. It is not always true of the Eucharist: desire to receive, explicit and implicit.
Yes. God is not bound by any Sacraments. He can save whoever he wants, however He likes. He gave us the Sacraments as an accessable means of grace, visible, authorative, and efficacious.
Anyway, all of the sacraments are grounded first and primarily in faith, whether it be the faith of the individual or of the Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation according to the Catholic Church. It is a work, whether it be through the sacramental form of water or through desire or through martyrdom. It is worthless without faith; not possible without faith in most cases. And faith is not possible without God’s grace. So once again, God saves.
👍
 
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Hello tdgesq.
I know this was not directed to me but I wanted to weigh in on it.
I’ve highlighted the parts of your comments that I’m having trouble with.
The Church does not baptize without a profession of faith. For infants, and others who may not have the capacity, the Church receives the profession of faith from the parents/Godparents.

In the New Covenant, Baptism replaces circumcision as an entrance Rite. Children are brought into the covenant through their parents faith, just as Jesus was by Joseph and Mary.
Code:
I also noted your comment that *grace precedes* the faith that actuates the salvation contained in Baptism.  Do I have this way you see it correct?  Grace first, then faith, then Baptism.  Right?  Let me know.
I susspect this poster may have fallen into the hersies of Calvanism, but I can’t tell for sure.

Catholics call this drawing grace “pre-venient” grace, the grace that calls every human soul to be saved. Those who are of age are able to respond to this grace, and be drawn into baptism and be joined to the Church.
 
st peters wallingford vt christ the king rutland vermont. a church in konsha Wisconsin, oothers as well.
Could you please identify what is meant by “priests preaching salvation” in these places, and why you think it is contrary to the Catholic Church?
 
what are works to a Protestant?

sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross.
Firstly, sacraments are gifts that we are given by Christ Himself… even Protestants acknowledge Baptism.

I think it’s important to understand that faith is not a permanent gift, that it can wither away and die. If you read Luke 8 for example, it explains this and also shows us that we can produce a rich harvest through perseverance (activity).

continued…
 
Here are a few other verses to also show that bearing fruit (doing works) are important.

Matthew 5: 13-16 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

Matthew 5:42 ‘Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.’

Matthew 25: 35-40 'For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, lacking clothes and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Mark 3: 35 ‘Anyone who does the will of God, that person is my brother and sister and mother.’

Luke 3: 10-11 ‘And the crowds asked him, “What must we do then?” He answered, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”’

Luke 12: 33-34 ‘Sell your possessions, and give to the needy.’

John 15: 5 ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing.’

John 15: 12 ‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you…’

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Acts 20: 35-38 ’ “In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.” ’

Romans 12:13 ‘Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.’

Romans 15:1 ‘We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.’

2 Corinthians 8: 9 ‘For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.’

Galatians 6: 2 ‘Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.’

Ephesians 4: 28 ‘Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.’

Philippians 2: 4 ‘Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.’

Colossians 3: 12- 14 ‘As the chosen of God, then, the holy people whom he loves, you are to be clothed in heartfelt compassion, in generosity, and humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with one another; forgive each other if one of you has a complaint against another. The Lord has forgiven you; now you must do the same. Over all these clothes, put on love, the perfect bond.’

2 Thessalonians 3: 13 ‘My brothers, never slacken in doing what is right’

2 Timothy 3: 16-17 ‘All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.’

Titus 3: 14 ’ All our people must also learn to occupy themselves in doing good works for their practical needs, and not to be unproductive.’

Hebrews 4: 12 ‘For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.’

James 1: 17 ‘Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.’

James 2: 14-17 ‘What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.’

2 Peter 3: 15-16 ’ Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved; our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that he was given. He makes this point too in his letters as a whole wherever he touches on these things. In all his letters there are of course some passages which are hard to understand, and these are the ones that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of the scripture - to their own destruction.’

1 John 3: 17 ‘But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?’

1 John 4: 19-20 'We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

The gift of faith is explained in the parable of the talents… if you don’t make use of this gift, even what you have will be taken away from you.
 
Great post and questions.

what are works to a Protestant?

sacraments or anything one does that tries to add to the final salvation christ achieved on the cross. Accepting his free gift,repentance,asking forgiveness,prayer,worship,baptism,eating bread/wine/confession to priest I would all say are not works unless done to achieve or gain merit to keep the salvation. If they happen simply to please god or as form of worship, than I would not qualify them as “Works”. But if they are done so as to allow god to save or gain merit, than they would be works as anything added to jesus work is unneeded and opposite of grace.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Ephesians 2:8

“not by works, so that no one can boast”
2.9
I guess it depends on which “protestant” one asks. From a Lutheran perspective, sacraments are not a “work” that is outside of, or contrary to grace. In fact, sacraments are grace, the means of grace to be precise. It is by hearing the word and receiving the sacraments that grace is imparted to us.

I was baptized a month and a day after I was born. I performed no work in that event, but I did receive grace, forgiveness of sins, regeneration, and the abiding of the Holy Spirit. The very first seeds of faith.
Even now when I receive Holy Absolution after confession, or Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist, I am receiving grace, prodded by the Holy Spirit to avail myself of these things.

These are not my works, but His, meant to extend forgiveness of sin, and strengthen faith.

Jon
 
I think “faith alone” is really a misunderstanding on both sides. According to Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft in his book Fundamentals of the Faith he says that Luther’s big gripe about “faith alone” was all a misunderstanding and that Luther really just re-discovered a Catholic doctrine in the Bible. I feel like “predestination” might be a similar issue, as I have had conversations with protestant friends about it and sometimes it seems like we are saying the same thing, just in a different way, or with a different emphasis, although different protestants might have different definitions of “predestination”.
 
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I think "faith alone" is really a misunderstanding on both sides.

One that is in the process of being corrected.

According to Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft in his book Fundamentals of the Faith he says that Luther’s big gripe about “faith alone” was all a misunderstanding and that Luther really just re-discovered a Catholic doctrine in the Bible. I feel like “predestination” might be a similar issue, as I have had conversations with protestant friends about it and sometimes it seems like we are saying the same thing, just in a different way, or with a different emphasis, although different protestants might have different definitions of “predestination”.
Yes, Luther did “discover” this for himself. In his defense, he had extensive spiritual formation for years before he could actually “get it”. Many of his spiritual directors, including his Abbot when he was in the monastery were unable to convince him about salvation by grace, through faith.

The fact that his “discovery” had such a great impact in Christendom is evidence that this element of the faith was not sufficiently catechized at the time.
 
And where do you find this in Catholic Church teaching…That is…that by such participation we are adding to the Cross?
For if you do not find this in Church teaching, aren’t you arguing something that does not exist?

So - what you are saying is that it is not the action, but the intent of the heart that determines if something is a “work” or not.

These sound quite convincing in isolation - yet when looked at in the fuller context of the NT…they take on a different meaning and significance.

Consider for example that “Faith alone” cannot be alone since Paul Himself says that Faith without Love is worthless. One might argue that works are a result of faith and proof of a living faith…but Paul’s statement in 1 Cor 13:1-13 clearly delineates Faith, Hope, and Love as three distinct items and requires faith AND Love…
Thus does “Faith alone” fail as an argument.

Peace
James
Hi James. I was saying from a protestant viewpoint. Does not rome say we must be water baptised and go to confession to priest and partake of his blood and body?

I would say so personally. If a catholic out of love for god does things he thinks hes commanded not to earn salvation or to keep away from hell, than i dont see that as work no.

I disagree that it fails “faith alone” unless what seems to be saying the faith alone I reject and catholic should as well on my op.
Hello JJsmity.

Thank you for the response. So I can conclude that if we expect to say receive the Blessed Sacrament so as to gain something, anything at all really, then we are doing a work you would consider not in keeping with your view of justification and that would detract from God’s salvivic works on the Cross? So receiving Holy Communion is a work to you, as is Confession and both detract from your view of being justified by God’s salvation. Does that sum it up?

But on the other hand, you’d accept a Catholic going to Confession or receiving Holy Communion as “a form of worship” as acceptable? Or if they do so in an attempt to “please God,” it would also be acceptable to you? Is this it?

I hope you respond again. It helps.

Oh and what about all the other works I mentioned - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, etc. These specific works are mentioned by Jesus as reasons He separates the goats and the sheep, (see Matthew 25:31 to 46.) so I’m seeing a certain necessity in doing these things as signs of our Christianity in society as a whole and also that these are the works we will be judged upon as having lived a Christian life. Can you comment?

Glenda
Thanks for asking great questions and wanting to get to understand better. Maybe with your help you can help me understand Catholicism better to better go back to my baptist and try and unite us.

works/sacraments
To me personally it depends on the motives and heart. Good works or sacraments done out of heart for good not to earn or keep from purgatory/hell are a great thing. I also do believe works separate those who follow jesus from those who dont, sheep and goats as you say. The sheep know jesus follow him and will do good works. Those works will show we are who we say. Yes all are judged for their works before god, and judged or rewarded we all agree.
 
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