By faith alone, a catholic misunderstanding

[ahs]

I meant catholics muddy the gospel message of jesus by adding works etc.

We don’t add any works other than what Scripture tells us about (Mt 7:21, Mt19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rom 2:2-8, Gal 5:4-6, Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12-13, James 2:14-24, 2Cor 5:10, 2Cor 11:15, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12-13, Col 3:24-25…). My guess, as others have pointed out, is that the differences are more in semantics than pratical doctrine. I think you would agree with all Catholics that we are saved by Grace, through faith working in love.

Here’s something else to think about when discussing faith alone. Faith, as we see it, IS a work. Faith is something we do…a conscience decision to believe. John Martignoni explains it like this, and I have come to really appreciate this view:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper that represent ALL of humanity. These are all the people that Christ has redeemed…all the people in the world who Christ died for, so that they can have eternal life.
Now, draw a smaller circle within that, which represents the people who decided to believe in Christ and are saved.
What is the difference between those 2 groups? Is it something they did, or didn’t do? OR is it something Christ did, or didn’t do? It can’t be something Christ did or didn’t do, because His Work is finished, isn’t it? If someone chooses not to believe, and ends up in that outer circle, (of the unsaved), is that because Christ did not do something for them? OR is it because THEY did not do something?
Think about that for a moment. [paraphrasing]

 

[sudy]

A Christian can be identified by their fruit… see Matthew 7

By works, we’re referring to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, burying the dead, visiting the sick etc… as well as forgiving offences, praying for the living and the dead, comforting the afflicted etc.

By faith alone seems to imply that you can just say “Lord, I believe in You” … and that’s all that’s required. Well, that’s not all that’s required as Jesus told us to love God, and to love neighbour. One without the other is inadequate.

Please understand that I’m certainly not saying that Protestants do just that. I’m just trying to explain how we understand what is required for Salvation.

God bless!

 

[jjsmity]

Well the reason I said that was bc I remember seeing your post at first and you mentioned that Catholics, apologetics, had it wrong. That’s why I stated my comment, there is a huge difference, faith alone without any works and love is dead faith, see James.

Now if you have faith and it transforms your life, then more power to you. I think I see your point and I believe the RCC has embraced that, but I think as a whole, the Once Saved Always Saved Program has not taught it well. I think they make it sound incredible, but they forget to tell the people the fine print. That fine print is, love, works, faith and fear of God.

I said some apologist have misrepresented. Thanks for post, i also agree love is action and produces works.

We don’t add any works other than what Scripture tells us about (Mt 7:21, Mt19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rom 2:2-8, Gal 5:4-6, Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12-13, James 2:14-24, 2Cor 5:10, 2Cor 11:15, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12-13, Col 3:24-25…). My guess, as others have pointed out, is that the differences are more in semantics than pratical doctrine. I think you would agree with all Catholics that we are saved by Grace, through faith working in love.

Here’s something else to think about when discussing faith alone. Faith, as we see it, IS a work. Faith is something we do…a conscience decision to believe. John Martignoni explains it like this, and I have come to really appreciate this view:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper that represent ALL of humanity. These are all the people that Christ has redeemed…all the people in the world who Christ died for, so that they can have eternal life.
Now, draw a smaller circle within that, which represents the people who decided to believe in Christ and are saved.
What is the difference between those 2 groups? Is it something they did, or didn’t do? OR is it something Christ did, or didn’t do? It can’t be something Christ did or didn’t do, because His Work is finished, isn’t it? If someone chooses not to believe, and ends up in that outer circle, (of the unsaved), is that because Christ did not do something for them? OR is it because THEY did not do something?
Think about that for a moment. [paraphrasing]

There are plenty of debates on this subject and maybe I will involve myself one day clearly a great topic. I would agree that we are saved by gods grace through faith 100% as well.

I would also say belief is accepting gods free grace and salvation, not a work that earns it, but accepting what is already given.

 

[jjsmity]

A Christian can be identified by their fruit… see Matthew 7

By works, we’re referring to feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, burying the dead, visiting the sick etc… as well as forgiving offences, praying for the living and the dead, comforting the afflicted etc.

By faith alone seems to imply that you can just say “Lord, I believe in You” … and that’s all that’s required. Well, that’s not all that’s required as Jesus told us to love God, and to love neighbour. One without the other is inadequate.

Please understand that I’m certainly not saying that Protestants do just that. I’m just trying to explain how we understand what is required for Salvation.

God bless!

i agree a christian can be identified by fruit, a true faith will produce fruit. Fruit is the result. I agree with your saved by faith alone as being false please reread my op.

 

[ahs]

I would also say belief is accepting gods free grace and salvation, not a work that earns it, but accepting what is already given.

Amen, brother! And who is doing that necessary work of accepting that free gift of Grace “believing”, as you have defined it]? Is it something I do? Or is it something Jesus does for me? And for those who do NOT accept that free gift of Grace; is it something they did not do? Or is it something that Jesus did not do for them?

“Accepting” is an action word…a verb…something we do.

 

[jjsmity]

Amen, brother! And who is doing that necessary work of accepting that free gift of Grace “believing”, as you have defined it]? Is it something I do? Or is it something Jesus does for me? And for those who do NOT accept that free gift of Grace; is it something they did not do? Or is it something that Jesus did not do for them?

“Accepting” is an action word…a verb…something we do.

maybe I guess put that way, I see it as a choice not a work as in give me my reward for doing this or earning the free gift. But the salvation is fully done by jesus and given free, we accept and cant earn it in anyway according to protestants. We also do works of love or fruit that comes from that saving faith and holy spirit as the catholic church says, we differ on it adding the salvation jesus already fully achieved on cross.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am a baptist and believe in the baptist/protestant salvation message and gospel as the only true gospel, I believe Catholics muddy the water on this issue.

Catholics often misunderstand by faith alone

I have heard many catholic lay people,authors,debtors and apologist misrepresent what by faith alone means. Now I admit fully this is caused in part by protestants who say “by faith alone” taken literally could lead a catholic to a misunderstanding with no further explanation. It does not help with many books etc that do the same that catholic’s may read.

By faith alone should be rejected
So to clarify “by faith alone” Catholics are 100% right to reject by faith alone just as the book of James does and Augustine. A simple mental faith or belief in Jesus as messiah and god does nothing of itself, as James says so even the demons believe.

what is meant by faith alone?

Maybe a catholic would better understand by Jesus alone. Protestant believe that our salvation comes from Jesus death on the cross for all our sins when we put our faith in him. It is not a mental faith or belief, but a trust in him as savior to pay the price of sin we could not, so when god looks at us on judgment day he can look on Jesus as perfect sacrifice for sins. However this also includes repentance from sin, asking forgiveness for those sins to god, being born again or a change of heart and asking Jesus into your heart as lord and savior.** It is not to say again**, a simple mental faith/belief in god/bible/Jesus as James rightly rejects.

You’re a Baptist and not a Lutheran but would it make you feel any better to know that a Joint Declaration by Catholics and Lutherans concluded that we’re actually pretty much in agreement on this issue?

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[steve_b]

jjsmity
Thanks for the thread! You seem to be including all protestants in your original post. Be careful as there is a lot of variation within the many denominations on the role of works in faith. I have a copy of a protestant book titled, “Faith Plus Nothing Equals Salvation” or something to that effect that tries to teach that having faith in Jesus but not living the life of a Christian will still guarantee your salvation. A terrible distortion of the scriptural teaching that we are saved by works and NOT by faith alone.
As with most disagreements between Catholics and Protestants, we agree on a specific point of any given issue, and then the Catholic position also supports further/expanded belief in addition to our common one.

Examples?
j:

We believe we are saved by faith in Christ, period!

I think it was you (if I’m wrong please correct me) who pointed out in a previous post, faith in Christ ≠ saying lord lord (paraphrased) .

Faith in Christ = doing everything He says…right?

therefore, going back to the beginning

Faith in Christ = being in the only Church He established, the Catholic Church and believing all that the Catholic Church (the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15) teaches, **and **remaining in it…

for proof of that see the following for a quick 400 years of history beginning with Jesus and the apostles to Augustine.

#34 be sure to open that link. All the internal links in that link, are operational.

To do otherwise as Paul would say, is to NOT believe in Christ but themselves…
j:

And then to truly have such faith in Christ we must choose to do good works, if were able, to realized that grace.

Eph 2: 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Typically protestants ignore Eph 2:10. They prefer Eph 2:8-9 but NOT vs 10

The question then becomes, what happens to the person who doesn’t do good works that God created them to do? iow it’s not a suggestion to do good works, we are created by God to do good works. God prepared good works in advance for us to do.

those who don’t

Matthew 3:10 , Luke 3:9 , Luke 13:7-9 , Matthew 25:44-46

 

[ahs]

…we differ on it adding [to?] the salvation jesus already fully achieved on cross.

We dont’ differ here because Catholics don’t believe that our works add to Christ’s sacrifice in such a way that we could possibly earn salvation. We do believe, however, that we must persevere in faith and love (which means we msut do things…such as “love thy neighbor”) and must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, just like the Bible says.

Now, there is something to be said for attaching our works to Christ’s as we participate in His suffering…at least that’s what Paul tells us in Col 1:24: “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” What was “lacking” (or “behind”, as some translation use)? It’s our participation in it, isn’t it?

 

[jjsmity]

You’re a Baptist and not a Lutheran but would it make you feel any better to know that a Joint Declaration by Catholics and Lutherans concluded that we’re actually pretty much in agreement on this issue?

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

wow great stuff in here, amazing would catholics agree with this?

what of this part?

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

amen to this

44.We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.

 

[jjsmity]

We dont’ differ here because Catholics don’t believe that our works add to Christ’s sacrifice in such a way that we could possibly earn salvation. We do believe, however, that we must persevere in faith and love (which means we msut do things…such as “love thy neighbor”) and must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, just like the Bible says.

Now, there is something to be said for attaching our works to Christ’s as we participate in His suffering…at least that’s what Paul tells us in Col 1:24: “I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” What was “lacking” (or “behind”, as some translation use)? It’s our participation in it, isn’t it?

interesting thanks for post. i just read from a link given on if accepting or faith is a work, I dont think so here is from catholics and luthrans

“Both are concerned to make it clear that … human beings cannot … cast a sideways glance at their own endeavors … But a response is not a ‘work.’ The response of faith is itself brought about through the uncoercible word of promise which comes to human beings from outside themselves. There can be ‘cooperation’ only in the sense that in faith the heart is involved, when the Word touches it and creates faith” (LV:E 46f).

 

[jjsmity]

Examples?

I think it was you (if I’m wrong please correct me) who pointed out in a previous post, faith in Christ ≠ saying lord lord (paraphrased) .

Faith in Christ = doing everything He says…right?

therefore, going back to the beginning

Faith in Christ = being in the only Church He established, the Catholic Church and believing all that the Catholic Church (the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15) teaches, **and **remaining in it…

for proof of that see the following for a quick 400 years of history beginning with Jesus and the apostles to Augustine.

#34 be sure to open that link. All the internal links in that link, are operational.

To do otherwise as Paul would say, is to NOT believe in Christ but themselves…

Eph 2: 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Typically protestants ignore Eph 2:10. They prefer Eph 2:8-9 but NOT vs 10

The question then becomes, what happens to the person who doesn’t do good works that God created them to do? iow it’s not a suggestion to do good works, we are created by God to do good works. God prepared good works in advance for us to do.

those who don’t

Matthew 3:10 , Luke 3:9 , Luke 13:7-9 , Matthew 25:44-46

was this to me? if so could you shorten and clean up a bit just make statement, thanks.

 

[steve_b]

was this to me? .

It was to jameswalter forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

he was responding to you and I was responding to jameswalter

 

[JRKH]

I believe you misunderstood what I meant when saying muddy the waters me Protestant did it again lol] I meant catholics muddy the gospel message of jesus by adding works etc.

Yes perhaps I did misunderstand you.
However…I do not see how Catholic teaching on this matter muddies the water. The Gospel message is extremely clear on the necessity of both faith AND works as essential elements of being a disciple of Christ. The teaching of the Catholic Church is likewise clear on this.
In my humble opinion I think think that the issue many Catholics have with protestants on this matter of faith and works is the word “alone”. Catholics see no need or benefit in parsing out faith from works since they are both essential elements of the same whole.

I also think some catholics misunderstand what protestants mean by faith alone, as you said in part because of protestants.

Yes - but you see…the Catholic must find out - from each protestant what he or she means by “faith alone” since it will vary from group to group.

could you please provide the view that differs among protestants?

I would say that it runs the gamut from a view that is nearly identical to the Catholic view on the one end (faith and works are parts of the same whole), to the OSAS style view on the other end.
But as I say above…I think the biggest issue is this idea of separating the two things when Jesus does not, nor do the apostles.

Just to introduce another aspect in the conversation…
I also believe that there many protestants who do not understand the Catholic teaching on these matters and this compounds the problem.
One of the most egregious examples of this is when a protestant accuses the Catholic Church of teaching a “works based” salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth, yet this fallacy persists. I had a very lengthy discussion with some people on another board about this very thing. Their position was that, even if you require faith in Jesus Christ, as soon as you say that works are necessary for salvation (which is what Scripture says), then you are no longer teaching a faith based salvation…
Lutherans do not agree with this view - nor do Episcopalians - nor (it appears) do you…Yet these people did.

thanks for post.

You are welcome.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

maybe I guess put that way, I see it as a choice not a work as in give me my reward for doing this or earning the free gift. But the salvation is fully done by jesus and given free, we accept and cant earn it in anyway according to protestants. We also do works of love or fruit that comes from that saving faith and holy spirit as the catholic church says, we differ on it adding the salvation Jesus already fully achieved on cross.

The Catholic Church does not teach that we can “earn” salvation. Have you been under the impression that she does?

Peace
James

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I am a baptist and believe in the baptist/protestant salvation message and gospel as the only true gospel, I believe Catholics muddy the water on this issue.

Catholics often misunderstand by faith alone

I have heard many catholic lay people,authors,debtors and apologist misrepresent what by faith alone means. Now I admit fully this is caused in part by protestants who say “by faith alone” taken literally could lead a catholic to a misunderstanding with no further explanation. It does not help with many books etc that do the same that catholic’s may read.

By faith alone should be rejected
So to clarify “by faith alone” Catholics are 100% right to reject by faith alone just as the book of James does and Augustine. A simple mental faith or belief in Jesus as messiah and god does nothing of itself, as James says so even the demons believe.

what is meant by faith alone?

Maybe a catholic would better understand by Jesus alone. Protestant believe that our salvation comes from Jesus death on the cross for all our sins when we put our faith in him. It is not a mental faith or belief, but a trust in him as savior to pay the price of sin we could not, so when god looks at us on judgment day he can look on Jesus as perfect sacrifice for sins. However this also includes repentance from sin, asking forgiveness for those sins to god, being born again or a change of heart and asking Jesus into your heart as lord and savior.** It is not to say again**, a simple mental faith/belief in god/bible/Jesus as James rightly rejects.

Thanks for the thoughtful post and the search for common ground. And you are correct that the Catholic (mis)understanding of faith as you define it is rooted in some things some Protestants say. Bear in mind though, that some Protestant communities absolutely insist on the simple mental faith that you rightly reject as a sine qua non of salvation and even of being a Christian.

In general the Catholic view of the NT theology would be:

(1) Faith in Jesus that saves given by grace includes in its essence belief in the teaching of Jesus.

(2) Jesus’ teaching includes moral content.

(3) Therefore, faith that saves includes intending (at least) to live the way He taught.

Therefore, to deliberately sin and not repent breaks faith in Jesus.

Comments:
(a) The CC has always taught that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world (which includes me). There has never been a moment in history when the Church taught otherwise. That Jesus died for our sins (and was raised) is nothing new to Catholicism.

(b) I would add regarding your last paragraph, that repenting of sin and asking forgiveness for sins includes in its essence intending not to sin (as defined by Jesus’ and NT moral teaching) again.

(c) Also in that paragraph, in addition to all the things that you include with faith, there has to be somewhere in there the intention (at least) to live the way Jesus taught.

(d) I’m not sure I understand why the Trinity doesn’t figure into your summary definition of saving faith? In the early Church, those entering the Church both turned form sin and professed faith in the Triune God, using the Creed. This seems essential to Christian Faith to me. It is the Holy Spirit Who gives us new birth and cries out “Abba.”

 

[jjsmity]

It was to jameswalter

he was responding to you and I was responding to jameswalter

thanks for clarification.

Yes perhaps I did misunderstand you.
However…I do not see how Catholic teaching on this matter muddies the water. The Gospel message is extremely clear on the necessity of both faith AND works as essential elements of being a disciple of Christ. The teaching of the Catholic Church is likewise clear on this.
In my humble opinion I think think that the issue many Catholics have with protestants on this matter of faith and works is the word “alone”. Catholics see no need or benefit in parsing out faith from works since they are both essential elements of the same whole.

Yes - but you see…the Catholic must find out - from each protestant what he or she means by “faith alone” since it will vary from group to group.

I would say that it runs the gamut from a view that is nearly identical to the Catholic view on the one end (faith and works are parts of the same whole), to the OSAS style view on the other end.
But as I say above…I think the biggest issue is this idea of separating the two things when Jesus does not, nor do the apostles.

Just to introduce another aspect in the conversation…
I also believe that there many protestants who do not understand the Catholic teaching on these matters and this compounds the problem.
One of the most egregious examples of this is when a protestant accuses the Catholic Church of teaching a “works based” salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth, yet this fallacy persists. I had a very lengthy discussion with some people on another board about this very thing. Their position was that, even if you require faith in Jesus Christ, as soon as you say that works are necessary for salvation (which is what Scripture says), then you are no longer teaching a faith based salvation…
Lutherans do not agree with this view - nor do Episcopalians - nor (it appears) do you…Yet these people did.

You are welcome.

Peace
James

I dont disagree you see it as clear, that is why you are catholic. I said from a protestant view catholics dilute the gospel. We see it as just as clear salvation is by jesus alone apart from works and separated from salvation faith , than the works follow as result.

I keep hearing that protestants all have varying opinions on salvation on this thread, I have never seen such a thing nor had it shown to me before.

do protestants have false views of catholic… yes many I would say more so it seems than the other way around for sure. That is in part what I am doing here, to try and fix it, try and bring the groups closer together. I do disagree though that works have anything to do with salvation besides the results of it.

 

[jjsmity]

Thanks for the thoughtful post and the search for common ground. And you are correct that the Catholic (mis)understanding of faith as you define it is rooted in some things some Protestants say. Bear in mind though, that some Protestant communities absolutely insist on the simple mental faith that you rightly reject as a sine qua non of salvation and even of being a Christian.

In general the Catholic view of the NT theology would be:

(1) Faith in Jesus that saves given by grace includes in its essence belief in the teaching of Jesus.

(2) Jesus’ teaching includes moral content.

(3) Therefore, faith that saves includes intending (at least) to live the way He taught.

Therefore, to deliberately sin and not repent breaks faith in Jesus.

Comments:
(a) The CC has always taught that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world (which includes me). There has never been a moment in history when the Church taught otherwise. That Jesus died for our sins (and was raised) is nothing new to Catholicism.

(b) I would add regarding your last paragraph, that repenting of sin and asking forgiveness for sins includes in its essence intending not to sin (as defined by Jesus’ and NT moral teaching) again.

(c) Also in that paragraph, in addition to all the things that you include with faith, there has to be somewhere in there the intention (at least) to live the way Jesus taught.

(d) I’m not sure I understand why the Trinity doesn’t figure into your summary definition of saving faith? In the early Church, those entering the Church both turned form sin and professed faith in the Triune God, using the Creed. This seems essential to Christian Faith to me. It is the Holy Spirit Who gives us new birth and cries out “Abba.”

great post, question what denomination teaches mental faith alone? are you sure you have not misunderstood?

b] agreed, yet we are fallen humans.

d] agreed, but since that is not point of contention between the groups I thought it was not needed.

agree with the rest.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I think I read from St Pope John Paul II somewhere that he said something along the lines of, the Catholic says we are saved by faith and works while the protestant says faith alone

Trust me, you did not read that from John Paul the Great. It’s actually heresy. We are saved by the Grace of Christian Baptism and by nothing else.

By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. [CCC 1263]

If we forfeit that Grace through mortal sin, we can be restored by Sacramental Confession and by nothing else.

Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. [CCC 1446]

 

[JRKH]

I dont disagree you see it as clear, that is why you are catholic. I said from a protestant view catholics dilute the gospel.

Understood. So the thing to do is to find out why the protestant thinks this and correct his misunderstanding.

We see it as just as clear salvation is by jesus alone apart from works and separated from salvation faith , than the works follow as result.

I don’t really understand this comment. I thought the gist of this thread was about “faith alone” - but now you are saying “Jesus alone” and separated from salvation faith???
See how all these “Alone” comments can become confusing?

I keep hearing that protestants all have varying opinions on salvation on this thread, I have never seen such a thing nor had it shown to me before.

We see it all the time.
Perhaps you have not been as exposed to it because it doesn’t come up. Two protestants can hear the term “faith alone”, each nod his head in assent - and shout AMEN - each assuming the other has the same understanding when in fact they do not.

do protestants have false views of catholic… yes many I would say more so it seems than the other way around for sure. That is in part what I am doing here, to try and fix it, try and bring the groups closer together.

Amen

I do disagree though that works have anything to do with salvation besides the results of it.

But you would agree that if one does not display works (as a result of a living faith) then they are not saved - correct?
If you do then you have agreed that works are a necessary part of salvation.
If you do not - then you are not in line with Scripture which says that faith without works is dead and a dead faith cannot save…

So - no matter how one wishes to express the matter…works are necessary - just as faith is necessary. The two things cannot be separated no matter how much some protestants would like to do so.

Peace
James