By faith alone?

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fhansen said:
Nothing in Matt 25:31-46 need be twisted. We’re judged on our love, and our works or actions are a natural outworking of that love. Faith and love are not the same. Faith can exist without love while love always includes and encompasses such virtues as faith. Our salvation begins with faith but faith must lead on to love or its worthless.
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I agree with you.

Are you Protestant???
 
aidanbradypop said:
You just invite them over form carm don’t ya :yup::rotfl:
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Hehe I lost patience over there already. It didn’t take long.

But then, how long can one talk to a brick wall - and one that keeps on breaking apart so that bricks fall on your head - before deciding to stop?
 
jonathan_hili said:
Hehe I lost patience over there already. It didn’t take long.

But then, how long can one talk to a brick wall - and one that keeps on breaking apart so that bricks fall on your head - before deciding to stop?
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Smart man!

I simply point people to the Book of James. Sola Scriptura believers cannot deny what is said in James. When asked to produce a verse that states “faith alone” they cannot do so. Faith alone is a feel good theology that does not hold water. It should be Grace>Christ>Working Faith.
 
aidanbradypop said:
Smart man!

I simply point people to the Book of James. Sola Scriptura believers cannot deny what is said in James. When asked to produce a verse that states “faith alone” they cannot do so. Faith alone is a feel good theology that does not hold water. It should be Grace>Christ>Working Faith.
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I just don’t see what’s so reassuring in “faith alone”. I mean, if works are evidence of your saved state, you need to produce works anyway and if you don’t, I presume you’ll get all anxious about your faith - do I have enough faith, really? Whereas, as Catholics we can admit to ourselves that while we have faith, our works may let us down because of our own faults (e.g. being cowards, bad-tempered, etc.) and encourage us to repentance and to pray for greater grace to become more what Christ wants us to be, saints.
 
jonathan_hili said:
I just don’t see what’s so reassuring in “faith alone”. I mean, if works are evidence of your saved state, you need to produce works anyway and if you don’t, I presume you’ll get all anxious about your faith - do I have enough faith, really? Whereas, as Catholics we can admit to ourselves that while we have faith, our works may let us down because of our own faults (e.g. being cowards, bad-tempered, etc.) and encourage us to repentance and to pray for greater grace to become more what Christ wants us to be, saints.
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Depending on what branch of Protestantism you are talking to determines to what degree the faith alone belief has in their life. Faith Alone would mean something different to a Southern Baptist as oposed to a Lutheran or Episcopalian
 
aidanbradypop said:
Depending on what branch of Protestantism you are talking to determines to what degree the faith alone belief has in their life. Faith Alone would mean something different to a Southern Baptist as oposed to a Lutheran or Episcopalian
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Man, it’s amazing that people who want to preach the “simple Gospel of Jesus” can have such complicated theology!
 
James 2:24 says we’re not saved by “faith alone”.

God wrote the bible.

If you don’t believe James 2:24 you don’t believe God.

Period!

Case Closed!

Forever!
 
bzkoss236 said:
God doesn’t owe us anything, works or not. Works are necessary for salvation as evidence of a living faith. If you do not have works, your faith is dead and cannot save you. You must have the works as evidence of your faith. The works do not grant us salvation, but neither does the faith alone. And actually, it is only grace that saves us. And grace is given to those who have a living faith. And a living faith is only evident if you have good works. They are inseparable.
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Do you really believe God needs evidence of our faith? I would say that if you have no works you had no faith to start with, if I may paraphrase James. So how many good works to I need to prove my faith? Am I going to end up at heaven’s gate and God says “If only you had worked a few more hours at the soup kitchen or marched in two more anti-abortion rallies you would have made it. I just don’t have enough evidence of your faith to let you in. Sorry.” Works perfect our faith, strengthen our faith, show God’s love to the world, strengthen fellow Christians and train the next generation in charity and love. Some may gain a better reward for a life dedicated to ministry, but I’ll be happy with a shack in heaven if that’s what I end up with. First comes faith, then grace given, then conviction by the Holy Spirit, then works in obedience to God’s call.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
James 2:24 says we’re not saved by “faith alone”.

God wrote the bible.

If you don’t believe James 2:24 you don’t believe God.

Period!

Case Closed!

Forever!
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That would be true if you quoted James 2:24 accurately. It says we are justified by faith and works. Justification and salvation are two different things. Justification is equity of character. Like building equity in your home, works build equity in your life; it is made more valuable by the work you put in. Salvation is instant, justification takes time. So before you start kicking people out of the church try building some equity with them.
 
jonathan_hili said:
Hi Steve, I understand the theology you are saying but I’m more interested in how to interpret this specific passage.

A couple of points:

(i) It doesn’t follow that if works contribute to our salvation, then God owes us. This would be true if we were saved only by our works. Then, logically, God would have to save those who work. But if salvation is - through grace - a result of both faith and works, then it doesn’t follow that God owes us anything. Both Catholics and Protestants acknowledge that salvation is by God’s grace, and I think this is the key point. Because even if salvation was by faith alone, it would still be by grace - or else, God would owe you because of your faith. Similarly, Catholics hold that it is by both faith and works but, again, by grace. In both cases, God is gifting (hence “grace”) salvation to us.

(ii) If works had no value towards salvation, I don’t understand what the point of this parable is. If Jesus wanted to say, that we are saved through faith, why even mention works? In fact, it is interesting that he doesn’t mention “faith” or “belief” even once, but uses terms that have to do with works over and over again.
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(i) this is a good point, does God owe us salvation because we have faith? Let me be expansive in my explanation. When I mention God owing us for works I think of Paul’s writing in Romans that grace is only grace if given freely.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
So my boss doesn’t give me my check every week because of grace, but because he owes me for my work. This is the danger of putting too high a value on work being involved in salvation. We might begin to be impressed with the works we do and begin to think God is lucky to have us. (notice the sheep are surprised to hear they were being kind to Jesus when they were kind to others). Likewise, the person who places no importance on works will, in time, see their faith weaken, their relationship with God falter. Works are to represent God’s love to the world, to strengthen our faith, to teach and role model Christian living to the next generation. Works justify, they don’t save. Does God owe us grace in return for faith? I’ve done a lot of thinking about this over the last day. If I may make a clumsy analogy, God is like gravity. I don’t have to have faith in the laws of gravity, but my life is much less painful if I do. Faith is more than just believing something, it is molding your life around it. I’ve put steps outside the doors of my house, I poured my driveway so it slopes away from the garage, my basketball hoop isn’t near any hills, you get the idea. Likewise, my life is molded by my faith in, and love of, God, around prayer, Scriptural study, raising my kids by the Bible, church and church activities, sharing with others, giving time and money to God’s work. I can do a work and not want to, I can’t mold my life around something unless I want to. God doesn’t owe me grace because of faith, God has earned my faith because He first loved me and molded His actions around me (and everyone else as well). From the creation of the world, to nature, gave me a great wife and kids, science and technology that makes life easier and more fun, to His Son dying for my sin, and grace is part of the package for the faithful.

(ii) Let us not forget that Jesus is nearing the end of His ministry when He tells this parable. He has been teaching His disciples for three years now. Does He still have to include believe in Me in every parable? Jesus spent three years doing all the things he mentions and a lot more. Do what I do, and what I say seems to be the message in the parable.
 
stevekehl said:
Do you really believe God needs evidence of our faith? I would say that if you have no works you had no faith to start with, if I may paraphrase James. So how many good works to I need to prove my faith? Am I going to end up at heaven’s gate and God says “If only you had worked a few more hours at the soup kitchen or marched in two more anti-abortion rallies you would have made it. I just don’t have enough evidence of your faith to let you in. Sorry.” Works perfect our faith, strengthen our faith, show God’s love to the world, strengthen fellow Christians and train the next generation in charity and love. Some may gain a better reward for a life dedicated to ministry, but I’ll be happy with a shack in heaven if that’s what I end up with. First comes faith, then grace given, then conviction by the Holy Spirit, then works in obedience to God’s call.
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Hi Steve,

In a sense I agree with you, but I would change the order a little in that grace trumps all: grace comes first - to everyone - and we can respond to this through faith or not. However, I don’t think you can separate faith from works. As you say, if you have no works, you had no faith to start with. That’s why the Catholic Church insists one is saved by grace through faith and works because faith without works is dead (James). It doesn’t mean God is going to tally your account of good works but there are expectations put on us by our Father as His children. And we need to respond to these. This response is just as much a work as it is a matter of belief and trust. Does that make sense?

Also, what do you think about salvation for those who do not have explicit faith or belief in Christ (either through ignorance, historical or cultural circumstance, etc.) but live generally good lives according to the natural moral law?

Jonathan
 
stevekehl said:
So my boss doesn’t give me my check every week because of grace, but because he owes me for my work. This is the danger of putting too high a value on work being involved in salvation. We might begin to be impressed with the works we do and begin to think God is lucky to have us. (notice the sheep are surprised to hear they were being kind to Jesus when they were kind to others). Likewise, the person who places no importance on works will, in time, see their faith weaken, their relationship with God falter. Works are to represent God’s love to the world, to strengthen our faith, to teach and role model Christian living to the next generation. Works justify, they don’t save.
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Are you sure you’re a Protestant, Steve? That sounds like the Catholic position!
stevekehl said:
(ii) Let us not forget that Jesus is nearing the end of His ministry when He tells this parable. He has been teaching His disciples for three years now. Does He still have to include believe in Me in every parable? Jesus spent three years doing all the things he mentions and a lot more. Do what I do, and what I say seems to be the message in the parable.
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All I’m suggesting is that this parable has to be taken into account. It’s no use saying that all God wants from us is faith and that works play no role in our salvation (or sanctification). Jesus obviously does want us to believe in him but the Gospels are full of commands he expects his Church to keep. I don’t find the “by faith alone” position credible when it is measured up against a parable like this one. Of course, if “by faith alone” you mean our initial justification is by faith and then we need both faith and works throughout our Christian lives as continuous and necessary fruits of this initial justification, then I’m not in disagreement with you.
 
stevekehl said:
At the end of the age every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Romans 14:11) So the goats calling Jesus Lord only means they acknowledge the truth. Works have no value toward our salvation. We are not saved by works, we are saved to do good works. If works gain us salvation then God owes us salvation, and it is not a free gift. Works perfect our faith, share God’s love with the world, and teach new Christians how a mature Christian lives.
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“Necessary” is different from “earning”.
For example, air is necessary but we don’t earn it.

Works do not earn salvation, but they are necessary for salvation.

Salvation or justification, was a gift, not a paycheck.

But this gift of justification necessitates having the Holy Spirit live in a person. St. Paul says that we are temples of the Holy Spirit.
As Jesus said to Nichodemous, that a person must be born again of water and spirit.

Someone doing evil works cannot have the Holy Spirit live within them.

Then the only way to keep the Holy Spirit is to do neutral or good works because there is nothing else but evil, neutral, or good works.

A person cannot live in sin and at the same time live in the Holy Spirit, because sin is evil, and God is all good.

Therefore our salvation, justification, depends necessarily on our works that are neutral or good.

And in this parable about the sheep and goats, Jesus is teaching about the necessity of those good works, for it will show to him those who love him and those that don’t.

Just some thoughts.
 
A major cause of the differences between the Protestant and Catholic understanding of justification is that, in Catholicism, one must become genuinely righteous; he must become the righteousness of God, rather than merely “wear” the righteousness of God. And man actually becomes this righteousness by becoming God, in a way, by becoming one with his source IOW, from Whom he was never meant to depart and apart from Whom he can do nothing.

Man, uniquely, is made in God’s image. God is the model for what man is meant to be.
 
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