By George...

[NHInsider]

For example, the Church teaches that if one repents of their sin and confesses their sin to a priest, then upon the priest given them absolution, their sins are forgiven… after they do their penance, of course.

Umm - I believe that one’s sins are forgiven when the priest pronounces absolutiong. Forgiveness is not given in exchange for penance (else we would be earning that which cannot be earned). Forgiveness is the free gift of grace. Penance is reparation.

 

[NotWorthy]

Umm - I believe that one’s sins are forgiven when the priest pronounces absolutiong. Forgiveness is not given in exchange for penance (else we would be earning that which cannot be earned). Forgiveness is the free gift of grace. Penance is reparation.

I agree with the forgiveness at absolution. I was more focused on showing that there is a normative means of receiving Grace.

But… don’t we commit a sin if we refuse to do our penance?

 

[NHInsider]

I agree with the forgiveness at absolution. I was more focused on showing that there is a normative means of receiving Grace.

But… don’t we commit a sin if we refuse to do our penance?

yes, but it’s a new sin. It doesn’t mean our previous absolution has been revoked.

 

[NotWorthy]

yes, but it’s a new sin. It doesn’t mean our previous absolution has been revoked.

Yes, that’s the way I understand it (disregarding my previous post… )

 

[twinc]

I wholeheartedly agree. Again, you seem to be totally disconnected from the question at hand.

1st. The Catholic Church through Scripture teaches that one must persevere in good works, to the end of their life. I already posted Romans 2:

Romans 2:
[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

But there are many verses which speak of persevering to the end.

Mark 13:13
And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.

Sincerely,

De Maria

it seems some are never simply going to simply accept but want to complicate and make it impossible by turning the good news and the fantastic good news into bad news,whereas
even today’s gospel explains it for those who understand it simply without complicating it and in the story of the good samaratian as regards good works guess which character good works Catholics would identify with.Imho the sooner Catholics realise they are surrounded by thieves and robbers who will, try to interrupt their onward and certain journey to heaven and, leave some lying in the gutter hoping Jesus Christ will lift them out and see that they are healed.There was of course a man rich in his good works that asked this very question “what must I do to be saved"so will Christ’s answer satisfy us for it will see nothing can be added to the good work/s of God in and by Christ. Any Church or denomination that does not teach that we are saved and justified by God’s grace and mercy,through faith is not truly Christian “because it is by grace that you have been saved,through faith;not by anything of your own,but by a gift from God;not by anything that you have,so that nobody can claim the credit”[Eph.2:8-9].It seems that according to today’s gospel and Isaiah,evil sinful man’s good works and righteousness are as filth and unacceptable to God except in and by and through Jesus Christ.I was told once that if I really wanted to do good and no harm to " sleep 24hrs each day”- twinc

 

[De_Maria]

it seems some are never simply going to simply accept but want to complicate and make it impossible by turning the good news and the fantastic good news into bad news,

You are right. I won’t accept your so-called good news. I accept Christ’s teaching. Not your interpretation.

whereas even today’s gospel explains it for those who understand it simply without complicating it and in the story of the good samaratian as regards good works guess which character good works Catholics would identify with.

So, you are a Catholic who does not identify with the good Samaritan? Or what are you trying to say?

Imho the sooner Catholics realise

??? Your public profile says you are Catholic:

About twinc LocationUnited KingdomReligion****CatholicInterestsWalking,scripture study[creationism]I’m here for:Faith questions, Faith Building, Relationships, Friends

DID YOU LIE ABOUT THAT? Are you a Bible Christian posing as a Catholic?

they are surrounded by thieves and robbers who will, try to interrupt their onward and certain journey to heaven

The thieves and robbers are those who tell you that the journey to heaven is certain. That is known as ASSURANCE OF SALVATION which is a Protestant heresy.

and, leave some lying in the gutter hoping Jesus Christ will lift them out and see that they are healed.

That is precisely what we do. Scripture tells us to HOPE IN GOD:
Psalms 61:8
In God is my salvation and my glory: he is the God of my help, and my hope is in God.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.

There was of course a man rich in his good works that asked this very question "what must I do to be saved"so will Christ’s answer satisfy us for it will see nothing can be added to the good work/s of God in and by Christ.

What are you talking about? Christ answered thus:
Matt 19:
[17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Any Church or denomination

Don’t you know what the Catholic Church teaches? Yet you claim to be Catholic?

that does not teach that we are saved and justified by God’s grace and mercy,through faith is not truly Christian

The Catholic Church teaches salvation by faith AND works.

“because it is by grace that you have been saved,through faith;not by anything of your own,but by a gift from God;not by anything that you have,so that nobody can claim the credit”[Eph.2:8-9].

That is Catholic Teaching. But it is clear that you don’t understand the Scripture. Let me break it down for you:
**
because it is by grace that you have been saved**,

We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone because we must cooperate with the grace of God by obeying His commands.

through faith;

Because faith is itself a grace from God. Faith does not come from us but we must accept the grace of faith and exercise faith in order to please God.

not by anything of your own,but by a gift from God;

This just confirms what I said above. Faith is a grace from God which we must accept and put to use.

not by anything that you have,so that nobody can claim the credit

Exactly! Everything that we have is from God. So that we can’t claim the credit. But what Protestants, like yourself don’t understand is that we don’t claim any credit. We accept the judgment of our Lord and accept the merit which HE ASSIGNS. He ALONE is our judge.

But perhaps you overlooked the very next verse:
**[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

**We are created for good works that we should walk in them. Interesting. When were we created? When we were conceived. And we were created to walk in good works. What do you think would happen if we refuse to walk in good works?

It seems that according to today’s gospel and Isaiah,evil sinful man’s good works and righteousness are as filth and unacceptable to God except in and by and through Jesus Christ.I was told once that if I really wanted to do good and no harm to " sleep 24hrs each day"- twinc

You don’t even seem to understand your own words. You said:
It seems that according to today’s gospel and Isaiah,evil sinful man’s good works and righteousness are as filth and unacceptable to God** except in and by and through Jesus Christ.**

Therefore, your good works are acceptable to God when you perform them in and by and through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

They are not only acceptable but they are required. Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.

Romans 6:16
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fhansen]

I guess I still don’t understand. The CC teaches that we’re saved by grace alone-it’s all “extra nos” from that perspective. But God wants our willing participation so He provides certain vehicles of that grace that can benefit us by increasing justification, the sacraments being one. Others include various works of love He places in our path to do. Both of these require faith on our part.

So, IMO, the difference between St Paul’s’ and St James’ statements are that while St James is speaking of works of love, St Paul is assuring us that the works of the legalists (like those of the Pharisees of which he was one), are garbage because they’re not of love. And for that reason they’re not even of faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

I guess I still don’t understand. The CC teaches that we’re saved by grace alone-it’s all “extra nos” from that perspective. But God wants our willing participation so He provides certain vehicles of that grace that can benefit us by increasing justification, the sacraments being one. Others include various works of love He places in our path to do. Both of these require faith on our part.

I’m not sure I agree that you “still don’t understand”, because your next statement shows that you have a firm grasp of the truth.

So, IMO, the difference between St Paul’s’ and St James’ statements are that while St James is speaking of works of love, St Paul is assuring us that the works of the legalists (like those of the Pharisees of which he was one), are garbage because they’re not of love. And for that reason they’re not even of faith.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not sure I agree that you “still don’t understand”, because your next statement shows that you have a firm grasp of the truth.

Been out of town awhile. My last post was meant to be a reply to post #15. I don’t understand what DeMaria’s gettin’ at.

 

[twinc]

You are right. I won’t accept your so-called good news. I accept Christ’s teaching. Not your interpretation.

So, you are a Catholic who does not identify with the good Samaritan? Or what are you trying to say?

??? Your public profile says you are Catholic:
DID YOU LIE ABOUT THAT? Are you a Bible Christian posing as a Catholic?

The thieves and robbers are those who tell you that the journey to heaven is certain. That is known as ASSURANCE OF SALVATION which is a Protestant heresy.

That is precisely what we do. Scripture tells us to HOPE IN GOD:
Psalms 61:8
In God is my salvation and my glory: he is the God of my help, and my hope is in God.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we labor and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.
What are you talking about? Christ answered thus:
Matt 19:
[17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Don’t you know what the Catholic Church teaches? Yet you claim to be Catholic?

The Catholic Church teaches salvation by faith AND works.

That is Catholic Teaching. But it is clear that you don’t understand the Scripture. Let me break it down for you:
**
because it is by grace that you have been saved**,

We are saved by grace, but not by grace alone because we must cooperate with the grace of God by obeying His commands.

through faith;

Because faith is itself a grace from God. Faith does not come from us but we must accept the grace of faith and exercise faith in order to please God.

not by anything of your own,but by a gift from God;

This just confirms what I said above. Faith is a grace from God which we must accept and put to use.

not by anything that you have,so that nobody can claim the credit

Exactly! Everything that we have is from God. So that we can’t claim the credit. But what Protestants, like yourself don’t understand is that we don’t claim any credit. We accept the judgment of our Lord and accept the merit which HE ASSIGNS. He ALONE is our judge.

But perhaps you overlooked the very next verse:
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

We are created for good works that we should walk in them. Interesting. When were we created? When we were conceived. And we were created to walk in good works. What do you think would happen if we refuse to walk in good works?

You don’t even seem to understand your own words. You said:
It seems that according to today’s gospel and Isaiah,evil sinful man’s good works and righteousness are as filth and unacceptable to God** except in and by and through Jesus Christ.**

Therefore, your good works are acceptable to God when you perform them in and by and through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

They are not only acceptable but they are required. Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.

Romans 6:16
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.

Sincerely,

De Maria

it is you who do not understand that the so called good works of men are unacceptable because they are tainted and shop soiled.Only the works of God[Jn.6:27-29][Jn.10] and/or Christ are acceptable being perfect.Be ye perfect said Christ as your heavenly Father is perfect,how is this possible except through the good works of Christ and not our good[bad]works.At Acts.9 see Paul doing good killing Christians,let us make sure that we are better than Paul - twinc

 

[fhansen]

it is you who do not understand that the so called good works of men are unacceptable because they are tainted and shop soiled.Only the works of God[Jn.6:27-29][Jn.10] and/or Christ are acceptable being perfect.Be ye perfect said Christ as your heavenly Father is perfect,how is this possible except through the good works of Christ and not our good[bad]works.At Acts.9 see Paul doing good killing Christians,let us make sure that we are better than Paul - twinc

twinc, this is a thoroughly Reformed, i.e. non-Catholic, position.

 

[De_Maria]

Umm - I believe that one’s sins are forgiven when the priest pronounces absolutiong. Forgiveness is not given in exchange for penance (else we would be earning that which cannot be earned). Forgiveness is the free gift of grace. Penance is reparation.

That is not my understanding. The Catholic Encyclopedia has an excellent explanation:

It is not true that for the Catholic the mere “telling of one’s sins” suffices to obtain their forgiveness. Without sincere sorrow and ** purpose of amendment,** confession avails nothing, the pronouncement of absolution is of no effect, and the guilt of the sinner is greater than before.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

The key words are PURPOSE OF AMENDMENT. In other words, we must be willing to perform the works of reparation which are given by the priest or the absolution is of no effect.

Forgiveness is not given in exchange for penance (else we would be earning that which cannot be earned).

1. The Sacrament of Confession was not earned by us. It was freely instituted by God in His Mercy for our salvation.
2. However, in order to approach the Sacrament we must meet certain conditions. And in order to be forgiven and granted absolution, we must meet certain conditions. Therefore, although we don’t earn the grace, we certainly merit it
3. We can go into a great big discussion about whether man can merit anything which God gives us. But the discussion is besides the point. The point being that GOD set the value of our works and in His Mercy, He accepts our “dirty rags” in exchange for salvation. It certainly isn’t an even exchange, but He set the conditions. And it is He who judges whether we meet those conditions. In so doing, He OBLIGATED Himself to provide that which He promised to those who meet ALL His conditions. In this case, to those who confess with sincere sorrow and purpose of amendment, He will grant absolution. But not before.

Forgiveness is the free gift of grace.

Many gifts are free. And yet they are still earned. For instance, a graduation gift. Do you give a child a graduation gift before he earns it by graduating? Not me.

And yet it remains a free gift. Why? Because no one is twisting my arm to give that gift. I’m free to give it or not to give it. UNLESS I promise to give it beforehand. In which case, I bind myself.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I agree with the forgiveness at absolution. I was more focused on showing that there is a normative means of receiving Grace.

But… don’t we commit a sin if we refuse to do our penance?

If we refuse to do our penance, our absolution is of no effect.

 

[De_Maria]

I guess I still don’t understand. The CC teaches that we’re saved by grace alone-i

The Catholic Church? No sir. The Catholic Church does not teach we are saved by grace ALONE. The Protestants teach the five ALONES.

Saved by God ALONE
Through Christ ALONE
by Grace ALONE
through Faith ALONE
in Scripture ALONE

it’s all “extra nos” from that perspective.

extra nos means outside of us. Grace works inside. So, although I don’t agree with the first part of that statement, the second part doesn’t seem to jive with the first part either.

But God wants our willing participation

That’s extra nos. Our willing participation.

so He provides certain vehicles of that grace that can benefit us by increasing justification, the sacraments being one.

Why He provides the Sacraments is another question. But I would say it is because of His Love and Mercy. Because the Old Covenant Jews gave their willing participation but never achieved complete sanctification. Remember, none of them entered heaven before Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Therefore, in order that we might achieve perfect justification which could gain us entry into heaven, God instituted the Sacraments.

Others include various works of love He places in our path to do. Both of these require faith on our part.

Exactly! They go hand in hand. Christian justification is a two step process. We must turn to God and justify ourselves as best we can by faith and works. And then God justifies by faith apart from works in the Sacraments. Because the Sacraments are works of God. We must have faith that He can do what He promised to do.

So, IMO, the difference between St Paul’s’ and St James’ statements are that while St James is speaking of works of love, St Paul is assuring us that the works of the legalists (like those of the Pharisees of which he was one), are garbage because they’re not of love. And for that reason they’re not even of faith.

There is a great deal of truth in what you say. But, St. Paul could squeeze a lot of meaning into his words.

 

[De_Maria]

it is you who do not understand that the so called good works of men are unacceptable because they are tainted and shop soiled.Only the works of God[Jn.6:27-29][Jn.10] and/or Christ are acceptable being perfect.Be ye perfect said Christ as your heavenly Father is perfect,how is this possible except through the good works of Christ and not our good[bad]works.At Acts.9 see Paul doing good killing Christians,let us make sure that we are better than Paul - twinc

SAINT Paul repented of his errors. And after his conversion, he preached and suffered for our salvation. I would hardly call his works “tainted and shop soiled”.

Col 1:24 [24] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

 

[De_Maria]

Been out of town awhile. My last post was meant to be a reply to post #15. I don’t understand what DeMaria’s gettin’ at.

That there are two types of justification.

1. Justicia Dei Extra Nos-which is justification by faith and works.
2. And Sacramental justification.

The Old Covenant Jews only had access to the first. We have access to both.

The other and main point is based upon what I mentioned above. St. Paul and St. James aren’t talking about exactly the same thing. That is why they sound as though they are completely contradicting each other. But in fact, one is talking about one form of justification. The other is talking about the second form of justification.

St. James is talking about Justicia Dei extra nos. While St. Paul is speaking about Sacramental justification.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

yes, but it’s a new sin. It doesn’t mean our previous absolution has been revoked.

It means you were never absolved.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, that’s the way I understand it (disregarding my previous post… )

Do you have something upon which you base this opinion?

 

[twinc]

twinc, this is a thoroughly Reformed, i.e. non-Catholic, position.

not at all - this is the one and only and original position straight from Christ Himself as at Jn.6:27-29 etc - twinc

 

[twinc]

SAINT Paul repented of his errors. And after his conversion, he preached and suffered for our salvation. I would hardly call his works “tainted and shop soiled”.

Col 1:24 [24] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

if anyone relented of any errors it could well have been St.James who after he wrote his epistle and just before he was thrown to his death from the temple pinnacle and bludgeoned to death by beating to his head by a fuller’s staff finally proclaimed Jesus as the door or way for all to hear, but seemingly not some - also btw it is a mistaken belief by some Catholics that St.James’ stance is that of the Catholic Church and not St.Paul’s - btw for good works see Rmns.7:14-25 - twinc