By their fruit, you shall know them

[Mickey]

The Iambic Pen:

Personally, I believe that a Protestant who earnestly tries to serve God, based on what he or she believes is right (incomplete as it may be), is more right in the eyes of God than the Catholic who was baptized as an infant and yet lives completely contrary to the faith.

I tend to agree with you here IP and here is my reasoning:

A “bad” Catholic would not be in agreement with many of the Church doctrines and teachings. Therefore it is likely that the “bad” Catholic would not truly believe in the real presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, and hence would be receiving unworthily. (and most undoubtetly not participating in the sacrament of reconciliation).

In reality, this “bad” Catholic would not be Catholic at all. (although they would most likey still refer to themselves as such).

Peace,
Mickey

 

[Mickey]

The Iambic Pen:

It’s when the doubts about Catholicism creep in that feelings of anger toward God Himself creep in. Satan is insidious and clever, but God’s power and love are infinite. I must never forget that.

You may find that the following short prayer will immediately assist you during times of demonic attack:

Lord have mercy. I love you God.

 

[Orionthehunter]

The Iambic Pen:

I guess the problem I have is that many “cultural Catholics” are not even subconsciously expressing their faith. As someone in my platoon said, “I’m Catholic, so I’m not very religious.” Or, as another Catholic I know said, after taking God’s name in vain, “It’s okay, I’m Catholic.” Now, they were probably both joking, a possible way of dealing with their awareness that they were not where they should be, but it is disheartening to hear such things.

While I’m disappointed that this is how these Catholics are witnessing to you, I don’t find it totally disheartening. In both cases it is a subconscious acknowledgement that they are marked in their Confirmation with an indelible mark. They are Catholic in their sin and in their holiness. Take comfort that even during times they aren’t practicing their faith, they can’t even deny it in their sin. It is consistent with Jesus’ promise in Mathew “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

 

[Paris_Blues]

The Iambic Pen:

Greetings to all of you, in the name of Christ Jesus!

In my continuing journey, I have encountered another difficulty of sorts. This time, it’s not a matter of doctrine or discipline. It’s a matter of that biblical saying, “By their fruit, you shall know them.”

You see, in recent days, I have been reminded of all my friends from Campus Crusade for Christ back in my college days, and who are still my friends to this day. Sure, many of the people attending our meetings and such were probably nominal Christians, but those who were my best friends were all determined to serve Christ. They went on mission trips, took part in on-campus evangelism, spoke at our meetings, held Bible Studies, and earnestly sought the will of God.

These people were, so far as I know, all Protestants. I don’t know what their thoughts on Catholicism were, as the subject rarely came up. At any rate, I never heard any “The Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon” talk coming from any of them. They just wanted to see people come to Christ.

I can’t help but contrast these people with (almost all of) the Catholics I know. They seem to see nothing wrong with premarital sex, they don’t seem to have problems with divorce, and their overall morality seems to be no different from that of the world.

So, as I stand here on the fence, as it were, I see a love for God and a desire to do His will back on the Protestant side (where I came from), and I see a severe amount of wordliness on the Catholic side. I feel like if I come all the way across the fence, I’ll be leaving the company of the godly for the company of the wordly.

Now, I know I’m comparing good Protestants to bad Catholics, so this isn’t really a fair comparison. It’s just that, at this point, it’s the only comparison I can really make. When I get back to the States and start going to a Catholic Church, I’m sure I’ll meet some good Catholics. Right now, though, I’m in a very difficult position.

So far as I can tell, the idea on this board seems to be that a bad Catholic is better than a good Protestant (because they have the Eucharist, etc…). I’m not sure that’s true, though. Ultimately, it seems to me that God is more pleased by the Protestant who tries to serve Him than by the Catholic who does not. Of course, if Catholicism is true (and those of you who have read my posts know I’m just about convinced that it is), then obviously the Catholic who does the will of God would be in a superior position to either of the aforementioned two.

So, I guess the biggest obstacle for me is not Mary, the Communion of Saints, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Clerical Celibacy, Transubstantiation, or any of the usual objections (though I’ll be honest and say I’m still not quite confortable with all of these…getting there, though). It’s the fact that I see a greater love for God and a desire to serve Him back in the land of Protestantism, fragmented though it may be.

Any converts deal with this issue? I think what I really need to do is meet more practicing Catholics, not just “cultural Catholics.” As always, I ask for the prayers of everyone on this board as I make this journey. May God bless you all!

Well,first of all, there are as many bad Protestants as there are bad Catholics and vice versa.

I can kinda understand what you’re struggling with and I’m sorry for that. You can do both if you’re a Catholic! You can receive the Eucharist, pray to saints, etc. plus do what Protestants do!

I tend to take it like you see Catholicism and Protestantism with pros and cons. If I were you, I would take your Protestantism background and mix it in with your Catholicism like I mentioned above! That’s what I did kinda though I reject some Protestant teachings to accept the Catholic teaching.

 

[Paris_Blues]

AquinasXVI:

I just want to say a few things. Every catholic is a bad catholic. We all fall way short of the way Christ led us.

I disagree with that that EVERY Catholic is a bad Catholic! Why would you think that? There are MANY Catholics out there in the world who are good and do the Sacrament of Reconciliation, etc. etc. Yes, we ALL do fall short on some things due to original sin and all that but remember, we keep on going no matter what!

 

[Anima_Christi]

Iambic, I think the problem is that you are contrasting a small group of Protestants with Catholicism as a whole. To be fair, if you look at Protestantism as a whole and not just at your small group of Campus Crusade friends, Protestants are just as worldly and lukewarm–if not more so–than most Catholics. I have a small group of Catholic friends at college and all of them are very dedicated to Christ and His Catholic Church. Since becoming Catholic, I have met many, many Catholics who love Christ and the faith and lead holy lives. It’s interesting you mentioned Campus Crusade, because if you look at the Campus Crusade group especially on our campus, a lot of those kids seem very lukewarm and nominal, not to mention having a very shallow understanding of Christianity, claiming to be Christians yet going out to parties getting drunk and taking part in sexual immorality. The same is true of other such campus religious groups. It seems like the bigger the organization, the more lukewarm members, and Campus Crusade is the biggest. That is true of any religion–Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, whatever. It’s just human nature. Some members are going to take the faith seriously, but most are, more or less, nominal members.
Another reason why Catholics seem more nominal than Protestants . . .There are cultural Protestants just like there are cultural Catholics (I would know since I live in the South) Most Protestants don’t identify themselves as “Protestants.” They usually just say “Christian” and most don’t have any strong denominational loyalty either, they just hop around to whatever church has the best preacher or best music or “meets their needs”, whether it be Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, or one of the ever increasing “non denominational” mega churches. Catholicism tends to be more deeply rooted in families and people who are baptized Catholic, no matter how nominal, are attached to the name for some reason. For example, if a Methodist doubts the existense of God and drops out of church, they will just identify themself as “agnostic”; they won’t tell people they are “Methodist” or “Protestant” or “Christian”–just agnostic. But if a Catholic does this, often they will continue to say they are agnostic in addition to being “Catholic”! (I have had personal experience with this). Hope this helps. You just have to put it into perspective. By the way, I’m a convert too and used to struggle with this. I grew up around nominal Protestants though rather than in an “on fire” church so it wasn’t as difficult for me. God bless you on your journey to His Church! IN Christ.

 

[scylla]

EWTN is based in Alabama which is just a quick little drive from Georgia, this is from the perspective of someone from California. It is only about a 2-3 hour drive which I used to drive in my commute to work for about 6 months.

ewtn.com/pilgrimage/connection.htm

If that is too far here is another place you can visit.

trappist.net/

I am sure there are more and if you like I will find more.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Anima_Christi]

RobNY:

Also remember that Campus Crusade isn’t a valid selection for determining Protestants in general. If you went to a Pro-Life group, you’d find plenty more orthodox Catholics than if you just pulled the average joe off the street. Likewise with the Campus Crusade and Protestants.

SO TRUE. I am in our college pro-life group and nearly everyone is either Catholic or on their way to becoming Catholic and we are all totally orthodox and in love with our Catholic faith! Actually, the few Protestants that are in our group are probably more nominal as a whole than the Catholics.
Strange isn’t it, almost everyone at the “Catholic” Newman Center is nominal, but almost everyone in our “non denominational” (yeah right) pro-life group is orthodox Catholic.

 

[Diane_M]

Dear Iambic

I bet this is exactly why God is calling you to become Catholic. We need more godly, practicing Catholic folks within the church. We need more people who will live out their faith rather than be Catholic-in-name-only. Glad you are coming into the fullness of the faith.

 

[Matt16_18]

Anima Christi:

Some members are going to take the faith seriously, but most are, more or less, nominal members.

Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and requites to their face those who hate him, by destroying them; he will not be slack with him who hates him, he will requite him to his face.
Deut. 7:9-10God makes a covenant with man. Man breaks the covenant. God punishes those who break the covenant. This is the history of man.

God, in his omniscience, knows that the majority will not keep his covenant. He also knows that there always be a small remnant that will keep the covenant. The point is to be part of the remnant flock. The powers of Hell will not prevail against Christ’s church, but that doesn’t mean that remnant flock will include every nominal Catholic. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cleave to me.
Psalm 101:3

… many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another.
Matt. 24:10
IambicPen:

So far as I can tell, the idea on this board seems to be that a bad Catholic is better than a good Protestant …

I don’t know where this idea comes from. Jesus never taught that it is better to be a bad Jew than a righteous Gentile. … the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, Go,' and he goes, and to another, Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,’ and he does it.”

When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”
Matt. 8:9-12

 

[barsapp]

barsapp:I guess I still take issue with this. I guess it would be helpful to define exactly what a Catholic is. Personally, I believe that a Protestant who earnestly tries to serve God, based on what he or she believes is right (incomplete as it may be), is more right in the eyes of God than the Catholic who was baptized as an infant and yet lives completely contrary to the faith.
They certainly do, and I’ve known many. So, I know my comparison of good Protestants to bad Catholics wasn’t fair. It’s just that, at this point in my life, it’s hard for me to compare good Protestants to good Catholics, as I know so few of the latter.

“Even a comparison of “good Catholics” vs. “good Protestants” is a false comparison.”
Consider this: You are a “good” or a “bad” Catholic according to God’s will. You are a “good” or “bad” Protestant according to Luther’s (an heretic) will.
Furthermore, could you please God not belonging to his Church, not being part of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Hole Church?
Little difference between “good” and “bad” Protestans. Big difference between “good” and “bad” Catholics.

 

[adnauseum]

Before you get too lovey-dovey about those peace loving protestants, read this very disturbing account:

decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/051003/assault.shtml

 

[RyanL]

adnauseum:

Before you get too lovey-dovey about those peace loving protestants, read this very disturbing account:

decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/051003/assault.shtml

I can only guess the headlines if this happened at a synagog or mosque…

 

[Milliardo]

The Iambic Pen:

It’s the fact that I see a greater love for God and a desire to serve Him back in the land of Protestantism, fragmented though it may be.

The best place to see would be to read the lives of the saints, and see how many good Catholics strove to live their lives in Christ. Of course, there are nominal Catholics out there as well, but as well here are many faithful Catholics who live their lives in Christ. One has to just open one’s eyes to see them. Now, a Catholic does keep his faith to himself unless asked. This is unlike Evangelicals who are out-and-out in whipping Bible verses, even carrying their Bibles around, so maybe that is why you seem to not see Catholics who live Christian lives, but they are out there.

 

[CARose]

Hey IP,

It’s great to see you progress in your questions as you head towards the Church. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve been mainly lurking, reading how you’re doing through your posts.

In the meantime, I’m keeping you in prayer, that God guides you to His Truth.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Anima Christi:

Iambic, I think the problem is that you are contrasting a small group of Protestants with Catholicism as a whole.

I know, and I know it isn’t fair. I guess this is why this is an emotional issue, and not a logical one. Logically, I obviously know that comparing good Protestants to bad Catholics is not a good way to determine if Catholicism is true. The thing is that as I sit here in Iraq, far from my “comfort zone,” so to speak, I tend to look back on my college days now and then. As I do so, I remember a group of friends who showed so much more faith and love for Christ than do any of my friends here. I guess I’m just aware of the fact that if I become a Catholic, I will be leaving that group behind, in a way. This is hard enough to do on its own. It’s made doubly hard by the fact that I don’t personally know people with this same love for Christ on the Catholic side. My hope and prayer is that this will be remedied when I return to the U.S. and actually get to know some Catholics.

It’s interesting you mentioned Campus Crusade, because if you look at the Campus Crusade group especially on our campus, a lot of those kids seem very lukewarm and nominal, not to mention having a very shallow understanding of Christianity, claiming to be Christians yet going out to parties getting drunk and taking part in sexual immorality.

I guess this would vary from college to college. Also, I’m sure there were many people who attended our meetings who were nominal, at best. The “core group,” though, who I knew the best, did seem to be attempting to serve God with all their hearts.

I grew up around nominal Protestants though rather than in an “on fire” church so it wasn’t as difficult for me. God bless you on your journey to His Church!

I guess the situation with me is my investigation of Catholicism did not come about because I was dissatisfied with my faith. I was simply curious. Now, look what happened! There’s quite a story about it, really, and I’ll tell it sometime.

Diane M:

I bet this is exactly why God is calling you to become Catholic. We need more godly, practicing Catholic folks within the church. We need more people who will live out their faith rather than be Catholic-in-name-only. Glad you are coming into the fullness of the faith.

Well, this is why I ask so many questions. I really want to know what is true, so I can not only live according to it, but also pass the truth on to others.

continued…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

continued from previous post…

barsapp:

Consider this: You are a “good” or a “bad” Catholic according to God’s will. You are a “good” or “bad” Protestant according to Luther’s (an heretic) will.

Well, if a Protestant has premarital sex, is he being a bad Protestant or a bad Christian? If a Catholic has premarital sex, is he being a bad Catholic or a bad Christian? I would say it’s the latter in both cases, though Church teaching may also affirm the former. A Protestant who sins is “bad” because he has transgressed the laws of God. Luther may have held that premarital sex was wrong, but he didn’t decide the wrongness of the act. God did. Therefore, a Protestant who sins is not sinning against Luther (or Calvin, Zwingli, or any of the others), but against God. On the other hand, a Protestant who loves God with all his heart soul, mind and strength and loves his neighbor as himself is doing good, not because Luther said such actions were good, but because God said they were. Whether the Catholic Church is the one true church or not is not the issue in this case. Even those who know nothing of Christ do good at times.

Furthermore, could you please God not belonging to his Church, not being part of the Mystical Body of Christ, the Hole Church?

Again, I would say that a Protestant who loves God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and loves his neighbor as himself pleases God more than does the Catholic who does his own will and pays God no mind. That the Catholic Church is the one true church is not a fact so obvious to the world. If it was, there would be no Protestants. That being said, one would hope that those Protesants who are faithful to God in what they do know would be drawn into the fullness of the truth.

Little difference between “good” and “bad” Protestans. Big difference between “good” and “bad” Catholics.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here. I would suggest that there is a big difference between a person who tries to do the will of God and a person who does not, regardless of whether the person in question is Protestant or Catholic. Perhaps I am wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that since Protestants are outside the Catholic Church, it makes precious little difference if a Protestant loves God and his fellow people or is a mass murderer.

adnauseum:

Before you get too lovey-dovey about those peace loving protestants, read this very disturbing account:

That is indeed a disturbing account, and all Christians should be outraged by it, as I certainly am. Yet, as I did not see the names of any of my college friends in the article, I fail to see how it applies to my discussion of my friends’ faith and love for Christ. I have never seen any of my friends from Campus Crusade act any way like the people did in the article. I do not pretend to defend all of Protestantism. As Protestants don’t agree with each other on a great many things, this would be a futile exercise. I speak only of those I know.

CARose:

It’s great to see you progress in your questions as you head towards the Church. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve been mainly lurking, reading how you’re doing through your posts.

In the meantime, I’m keeping you in prayer, that God guides you to His Truth.

Hey, it’s all right to lurk! I thank you for your prayers!

I thank all the rest of you as well. I’m sure I came off a bit defensive in this post, and I apologize if I have offended anyone. Being at this point of decision is not easy, as I’m sure many of you converts can attest, and it is often hard to know what to do. I ask that all of you would pray for me as I make this journey, and while you’re at it, please pray for my friends as well. I really think you’d like to meet them, even if they are Protestants…

God Bless!

 

[Matt16_18]

The Iambic Pen:

… I don’t personally know people with this same love for Christ on the Catholic side. My hope and prayer is that this will be remedied when I return to the U.S. and actually get to know some Catholics…

I will pray for you that you can meet some Catholics *in Iraq * that exceed the zeal of your college friends.

 

[Anima_Christi]

Iambic, don’t worry. All but a few Catholics I knew until I actually decided to become Catholic, even those within my family, were very lukewarm and uneducated about the faith, and I attended Masses at some parishes where quite a few of the members were not in line with the Church’s teaching. A while after I decided to become Catholic though, I began meeting other orthodox Catholics who shared my love for Jesus and the faith. It can be lonely at first, but hang in there. There are plenty of Catholics who are serious about their faith, you just have to look around. Your devotion and enthusiasm for the faith may inspired more lukewarm Catholics, too. Try to find an orthodox priest/parish. Go to the types of places that orthodox Catholics are involved (Eucharistic adoration, pro life stuff, beautiful churches with reverent masses and orthodox teaching, etc.) I was in the same boat as you are and a little while after I got involved in the campus pro life group, I started meeting a lot of serious Catholics and now I have a group of Catholic friends my age and we love talking about our faith.
Pray to God about this, and He will help you. Pray especially for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The saints are your friends too, and they will help you find your way here on earth. You’re in my prayers. God bless.
In Christ.

 

[barsapp]

The Iambic Pen:

Well, if a Protestant has premarital sex, is he being a bad Protestant or a bad Christian? If a Catholic has premarital sex, is he being a bad Catholic or a bad Christian? I would say it’s the latter in both cases, though Church teaching may also affirm the former. A Protestant who sins is “bad” because he has transgressed the laws of God. Luther may have held that premarital sex was wrong, but he didn’t decide the wrongness of the act. God did. Therefore, a Protestant who sins is not sinning against Luther (or Calvin, Zwingli, or any of the others), but against God. On the other hand, a Protestant who loves God with all his heart soul, mind and strength and loves his neighbor as himself is doing good, not because Luther said such actions were good, but because God said they were. Whether the Catholic Church is the one true church or not is not the issue in this case. Even those who know nothing of Christ do good at times.
Again, I would say that a Protestant who loves God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and loves his neighbor as himself pleases God more than does the Catholic who does his own will and pays God no mind. That the Catholic Church is the one true church is not a fact so obvious to the world. If it was, there would be no Protestants. That being said, one would hope that those Protesants who are faithful to God in what they do know would be drawn into the fullness of the truth.
I would suggest that there is a big difference between a person who tries to do the will of God and a person who does not, regardless of whether the person in question is Protestant or Catholic. Perhaps I am wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that since Protestants are outside the Catholic Church, it makes precious little difference if a Protestant loves God and his fellow people or is a mass murderer.

Thank you for your answer. I agree with you on this, but here you are taking about “natural law”, that is to say the common grounds of man morals. Even atheists if they sincerely follow “natural law” can be saved. (If you do not kill, you are not only following the fifth commandment but also natural law).

But a “good protestant”, as being protestant, must follow Luther’s teachings as a heretic. And here it is when he condemns.

Your statement: “That the Catholic Church is the one true church is not a fact so obvious to the world. If it was, there would be no Protestants.” I do not think that this applies particularly to Protestants… Because they were part of the Catholic Church: so they knew the Truth and rejected it. They subverted the True Faith and became enemies of the Church. On the other hand, consider the examples of those reformers who remained inside the Church, St. Francis of Assisi, for example. Or Savonarola, who was never a heretic.

Final few words, I do not exactly why, but the wording “loves God” starts to sound extremely vague to me (even suicide bombers love “God”…).