By their fruit, you shall know them

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Matt16_18:

I will pray for you that you can meet some Catholics in Iraq that exceed the zeal of your college friends.

Even better! After all, God doesn’t just work in Georgia.

Anima Christi:

There are plenty of Catholics who are serious about their faith, you just have to look around. Your devotion and enthusiasm for the faith may inspired more lukewarm Catholics, too. Try to find an orthodox priest/parish. Go to the types of places that orthodox Catholics are involved (Eucharistic adoration, pro life stuff, beautiful churches with reverent masses and orthodox teaching, etc.) I was in the same boat as you are and a little while after I got involved in the campus pro life group, I started meeting a lot of serious Catholics and now I have a group of Catholic friends my age and we love talking about our faith.

Yes, I just need to look around. I’ll find some! Plus, I would love to get involved in other activities outside of mass.

Pray to God about this, and He will help you. Pray especially for the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The saints are your friends too, and they will help you find your way here on earth. You’re in my prayers.

I will be praying, and I thank you for you prayers!

barsapp:

But a “good protestant”, as being protestant, must follow Luther’s teachings as a heretic. And here it is when he condemns.

I guess the issue here is most Protestants don’t really think of themselves as Protestants. They just think of themselves as Christians. They’re not protesting Catholicism, because most of them really have no idea what Catholicism teaches. So, they don’t think of themselves as following Luther. In fact, with the possible exception of the Lutherans, I doubt that most Protestants give Luther much thought at all. When I said “good Protestant,” I didn’t mean a Protestant who holds to the tenets of Protestantism, but rather one who does good. Perhaps a better term would be, “A person who does good and tries to serve God, and who also happens to be a Protestant.”

Your statement: “That the Catholic Church is the one true church is not a fact so obvious to the world. If it was, there would be no Protestants.” I do not think that this applies particularly to Protestants… Because they were part of the Catholic Church: so they knew the Truth and rejected it. They subverted the True Faith and became enemies of the Church.

Yes, but those who actually rejected Catholicism lived almost five hundred years ago. Most Protestants today have never been Catholic and know very little about the Catholic Church. One cannot reject something without first knowing it. As the Catechism says:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I certainly never rejected Catholicism to become a Protestant. I was raised in a Protestant church. I have had to approach Catholicism from the outside. Rather than having known the truth and rejected it, I am coming to know the truth for the first time.

On the other hand, consider the examples of those reformers who remained inside the Church, St. Francis of Assisi, for example. Or Savonarola, who was never a heretic.

I shall do so, though when I read about Savonarola at New Advent, some of his methods seemed a bit questionable. He never taught false doctrine, but he did disobey the Pope. And, so far as I could tell, his excommunication was never withdrawn.

Final few words, I do not exactly why, but the wording “loves God” starts to sound extremely vague to me (even suicide bombers love “God”…).

True, it can be a bit vague. Perhaps instead of “loves God,” I’ll substitute the phrase “loves God, serves God and obeys his commands.”

Thanks to all for their posts! God Bless!

 

[Mickey]

The Iambic Pen:

Yes, but those who actually rejected Catholicism lived almost five hundred years ago. Most Protestants today have never been Catholic and know very little about the Catholic Church. One cannot reject something without first knowing it. As the Catechism says:

I certainly never rejected Catholicism to become a Protestant. I was raised in a Protestant church. I have had to approach Catholicism from the outside. Rather than having known the truth and rejected it, I am coming to know the truth for the first time.

Correct. Most protestants today are not protesting anything. They were born into their particular affiliation and this is all they know. I pray that the Holy Spirit directs these individuals to the fullness of truth.

 

[Richard_Hurtz]

Mickey:

Correct. Most protestants today are not protesting anything. They were born into their particular affiliation and this is all they know. I pray that the Holy Spirit directs these individuals to the fullness of truth.

I’d add many “Catholics” to that prayer as well. We all know some that were raised in the Church and are blissfully unaware of what that means.

Blessings
Richard

 

[Mickey]

Richard_Hurtz:

I’d add many “Catholics” to that prayer as well. We all know some that were raised in the Church and are blissfully unaware of what that means.

 

[barsapp]

The Iambic Pen:

I guess the issue here is most Protestants don’t really think of themselves as Protestants. They just think of themselves as Christians. They’re not protesting Catholicism, because most of them really have no idea what Catholicism teaches. So, they don’t think of themselves as following Luther. In fact, with the possible exception of the Lutherans, I doubt that most Protestants give Luther much thought at all. When I said “good Protestant,” I didn’t mean a Protestant who holds to the tenets of Protestantism, but rather one who does good. Perhaps a better term would be, “A person who does good and tries to serve God, and who also happens to be a Protestant.”
Yes, but those who actually rejected Catholicism lived almost five hundred years ago. Most Protestants today have never been Catholic and know very little about the Catholic Church. One cannot reject something without first knowing it.
I certainly never rejected Catholicism to become a Protestant. I was raised in a Protestant church. I have had to approach Catholicism from the outside. Rather than having known the truth and rejected it, I am coming to know the truth for the first time.

We agree. It is an interesting exercise to sharp meanings and words. May be we can say now that it is better to be a “bad Protestant” (one who ignores the heretical origins of Protestantism and acts with good faith) than a “good Protestant” (one who militant and malevolent fights against the True Holy Catholic Church). History is the best antidote for Protestantism. It is really amazing how they live in darkness and ignorance. Because, is it not really astonishing that when Jesus lived, died and resurrected 2000 years ago his supposed “true believers” became into existence 1500 years later?

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

barsapp:

We agree. It is an interesting exercise to sharp meanings and words. May be we can say now that it is better to be a “bad Protestant” (one who ignores the heretical origins of Protestantism and acts with good faith) than a “good Protestant” (one who militant and malevolent fights against the True Holy Catholic Church).

Yes, I think that’s a good way of putting it, though I wouldn’t say that the average Protestant really “ignores” the origins of Protestantism. In most cases, they’re probably not properly educated about it. I know I wasn’t.

History is the best antidote for Protestantism. It is really amazing how they live in darkness and ignorance. Because, is it not really astonishing that when Jesus lived, died and resurrected 2000 years ago his supposed “true believers” became into existence 1500 years later?

I am beginning to see that this is true. I guess the real culprit in all of this is sola scriptura. The term itself is rarely used (I had never heard it before I came to this board), but the concept is universal among all the Protestant churches I’ve attended. This concept is so ingrained, it never really occurs to Protestants to think about why they believe it. With this concept in place, Protestants view all doctrines which are not explicitly stated in Scripture as being false traditions of men. Thus, when Protestants see Catholic doctrines which are based partly on Tradition, they see them as being false. If the Church is teaching false man-made doctrines, then it must have become corrupt. And, if the Catholic Church became corrupt, then the Reformation was a good thing.

When judging a church, the average Protestant will probably say right off, “does this Church base all of its teachings on the Bible alone?” If the answer is no, then the church is false. By this standard, the Catholic Church fails the first test and is therefore not worthy of further consideration.

Please keep in mind that I come from an Evangelical background, and so I can’t really speak for those denominations which are more reformed in their theology. I think I’m correct in saying that most Evangelicals place no real importance on the particular denomination a Christian attends, so long as the church is teaching the truth.

Also, in regard to the Reformation, I think many Evangelicals see many of the Reformers as being a bit off in their theology. Evanglicalism is seen as being a more pure form of Christianity.

Well, it’s really late here, and I need to sleep. I look forward to continuing the discussion. God Bless!

 

[system]

The Iambic Pen:

continued from previous post…

AquinasXVI:
Yeah, I imagine it’s probably weird for all of you to see me post about my enthusiasm with Catholicism, and then post again a few days later with my doubts. So, I guess it is a bit of a roller coaster. I ask that all of you would pray that God would guide me to where He wants me to be.

And that is certainly true. I really don’t like to label anyone as a “bad person,” though I’ve encountered a few here in Iraq that I would be tempted to label as such. Still, God loves them too. I must never forget that.

Sherlock:
I guess everyone is affected by their experience. As I said, my problems with Catholicism aren’t really with doctrine (even if some of them are still a little weird… ), it’s with my lack of personal relationships with committed Catholics.

scylla:
I would love to do so. Anyone know of any in Georgia or the near vicinity?

Yep.

maesoph:
Yes, and doctrine certainly is what really matters.

Well, thanks again to all of you for putting up with my often illogical objections. May God bless you for your kindness and help!

That’s good to know. I would very much like to do more than just go to church on Sunday.

Hi Iambic,

I am a convert to the Catholic Church. I once was very active in a non-denominational Church and had a wonderful Church family.
I would like to say that what holds me in the Catholic Church is the Eucharist. There is grace given through this Blessed Sacrament that you may not even notice, but overtime your heart and mind take on a new dimension of faith, a Catholic perspective, a more contemplative way of life and prayer.
You are in the process of crossing a bridge and as you make progress on gaining greater insight and understanding of the Catholic faith, you discover that the bridge you first step foot on has vanished behind you. You now have only one direction to move, that is forward and into the Catholic Church. It is initially a scary proposal, there is always some unknown element out there, but this is where the Lord has brought you. Christ is inviting you this time to receive Him in a way you have not yet received him. He is the Eucharist and your desire to receive him in this manner has already given you grace to continue across this bridge.
I personally do miss the social activity that I had in my evangelical church, yet I have come to understand that it is not about me, not at all, it is about others. Can my silent prayers, my time spent in the Adoration Chapel which no one on the outside sees or knows, my daily actions and interactions of the people I come in contact with, does any of this witness to the fact that I am a Christian? I would pray and hope that whatever graces God would bestow to me, would be granted to those who are in most need of his mercy and grace. John the Baptist did say that he must decrease so that Christ would increase. To enter the Catholic Church will be a humbling experience for sure.
Now to what you can do once you take that next step, sooner or later you will, because you can already see your destination ahead and the rungs on your bridge have fallen off behind you. You can seek out a Catholic Parish that has an active Legion of Mary group. The LOM is the largest lay apostalate in the Catholic Church. I am an active member of the Legion. What I do is participate in doing door to door evangelization. Our goal is to invite the unchurched to come to Mass, even the non-Catholic Christian is welcome and those outside of Christianity. Most of all, we want to reach those cultural Catholics, those that have fallen away and no longer attend Mass for one reason or the other. We seek to open dialogue with them and hope to bring restoration to their situation and let them know how much Jesus desires them to return to His Church. Another way to actively participate in the LOM is through nursing home visitation and even Prison ministry.
Well, Iambic, I too have followed quite a few of your threads over the past few months, your journey sounds so familiar. Just keep your eyes on the Cross, remember the sacrifice and soon you will be home.

In the hearts of Jesus and Mary,

WordMadeFlesh

 

[barsapp]

The Iambic Pen:

I guess the real culprit in all of this is sola scriptura. The term itself is rarely used, but the concept is universal among all the Protestant churches I’ve attended. This concept is so ingrained, it never really occurs to Protestants to think about why they believe it. With this concept in place, Protestants view all doctrines which are not explicitly stated in Scripture as being false traditions of men. Thus, when Protestants see Catholic doctrines which are based partly on Tradition, they see them as being false. If the Church is teaching false man-made doctrines, then it must have become corrupt. And, if the Catholic Church became corrupt, then the Reformation was a good thing.
When judging a church, the average Protestant will probably say right off, “does this Church base all of its teachings on the Bible alone?” If the answer is no, then the church is false. By this standard, the Catholic Church fails the first test and is therefore not worthy of further consideration.

If you want to rise against the Catholic Church, the first thing you have to do is refuse the principle of authority. After that, without this bond you can easily become a heretic. That happened to Luther. Now the gates are open to believe whatever you want. Nobody is going to tell you what is wrong or right. It is the triumph of subjectivism. And in the long term means the triumph of atheism.

The bases of Protestantism are absolutely weak and they do not resist any serious analysis. As it is frequently shown on these threads, Sola scriptura is contradictory, the denial of tradition, absurd. And so on. At the summit of silliness, they also “discovered” the true Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. So the true Tomb of Christ was discovered in 1857!!!

If anybody wants to know who Christ is, it is really easier and far more intelligent to start with the Holy Catholic Church than with more than 40000 Protestant denominations. You are right: we know them by their fruits…

 

[tradconvert]

*I would like to say that what holds me in the Catholic Church is the Eucharist. There is grace given through this Blessed Sacrament that you may not even notice, but overtime your heart and mind take on a new dimension of faith, a Catholic perspective, a more contemplative way of life and prayer.
You are in the process of crossing a bridge and as you make progress on gaining greater insight and understanding of the Catholic faith, you discover that the bridge you first step foot on has vanished behind you. You now have only one direction to move, that is forward and into the Catholic Church. It is initially a scary proposal, there is always some unknown element out there, but this is where the Lord has brought you. Christ is inviting you this time to receive Him in a way you have not yet received him. He is the Eucharist and your desire to receive him in this manner has already given you grace to continue across this bridge. *
**
Word made flesh

The above is beautifully put and inspiring, putting into words what it really means to become a Catholic (as I also did)
*