By their fruits you will know them

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What you may find, as I did, is that in practice, the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod, anyway) and the RCC are not that dissimilar. It’s only when you get into a deeper understanding of the respective theologies when the more significant differences surface; at least that’s what I experienced.

What I came to view, which is consistant with RCC teaching, is that the Lutheran Church(es) lacked for me the fullness of what I’ve come to experience in the sacraments and teachings of the RCC.

Lutheranism for me was adequate, the RCC offers much more, IMHO. Same God, Same Christ, Same Savior, but much more complete, methinks.
 
Newbie2 said:
What you may find, as I did, is that in practice, the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod, anyway) and the RCC are not that dissimilar. It’s only when you get into a deeper understanding of the respective theologies when the more significant differences surface; at least that’s what I experienced.

What I came to view, which is consistant with RCC teaching, is that the Lutheran Church(es) lacked for me the fullness of what I’ve come to experience in the sacraments and teachings of the RCC.

Lutheranism for me was adequate, the RCC offers much more, IMHO. Same God, Same Christ, Same Savior, but much more complete, methinks.
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Gaining a deeper understanding of the respective theologies sounds very laudable but I have a feeling the average inquirer is probably more interested in confirming that people who proclaim themselves as Christians obey the commandment to love one another. Our Savior enjoined us to do that and added that by doing so all men will know that we are His disciples.

Apparently, the Lutherans have scored high in this area. Perhaps Father Luther wasn’t so bad after all? 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
 
Guyonthestreet said:
Todays experience left me wishing more people in general could be like the Lutherans I met today.
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At least one thing it tells me that in evangelization, action is always more effective than mere words. I certainly wish you all the best in your discovery. Since you are in this process, I would recommend that you investigate the Catholic church too.

Some nasty posters, either Catholics or Protestants are either banned or suspended in this forum. You are left with the good ones actually. Since there are not that many Protestants here the ones that stay most probably have a high probabilty of being the good ones. It’s always nice to have good people in our surrounding, is it not?

In spirituality the feeling good can sometimes not always the barometer to determine truth. Sometimes knowledge does help.

Again wish you the best in your spiritual journey.

God bless.
 
SSTeacher said:
Gaining a deeper understanding of the respective theologies sounds very laudable but I have a feeling the average inquirer is probably more interested in confirming that people who proclaim themselves as Christians obey the commandment to love one another. Our Savior enjoined us to do that and added that by doing so all men will know that we are His disciples.

Apparently, the Lutherans have scored high in this area. Perhaps Father Luther wasn’t so bad after all? 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
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I think people who don’t know what to believe, tend to look for a place where they feel comfortable. For most people, that means a place where they are noticed when they are there for the first time, where people take the time to talk to them, and where they aren’t required to do anything to join.

We hear the same complaint all the time–that when a new-comer attends Mass, no one notices him, no one talks to him, and when he tries to join he either don’t get an answer or the requirements are too much to bother with.

The first 2 complaints are valid–to a point. My parish is fairly large and, to be honest, I wouldn’t know a new-comer from someone who usually attends another Mass. I don’t bother with the coffee an’, but did go once so I know how a “stranger” would feel. No one there seemed to be welcoming new people. It didn’t bother me, but I could see that someone who was visiting the church wouldn’t be noticed and would feel like he didn’t belong.

The last complaint, though, is invalid. Most people who seriously ask about joining and complain about the answer don’t like the idea that they have to wait until the next round of RCIA classes start, and that they won’t become a Catholic until the following Easter. They don’t understand anything about it yet, and so the balk. They think that it will be like most other Christian churches and they’ll be able to walk in, sign on the dotted line and they’re Catholic. They want to be Catholic, they think, but they actually don’t know anything about it yet. They’re really still in the searching stage. It seems that they’re still looking for some place that is psychologically comfortable. They haven’t even scratched the theological surface of Catholicism.

Becoming Catholic is a serious decision. It’s not something you do on a Sunday morning because you liked the smells and bells or the architecture.

The CC expects a person to know something about the faith before they join. We’re not into increasing our numbers any way possible. We don’t take people in and hope they’ll learn the faith later.
 
Guyonthestreet said:
Your posts and your conduct here, along with that of your fellow Lutherans is one of the main reasons I started to investigate the Lutheran church further. What was fascinating was I then met a whole church full of people like you 😃

In a word - Yes 😃
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Jon have been a real gentleman here. His maturity is outstanding. I can only envy his patience for putting up with a predominantly Catholic forum. His lasting presence here is a testimony to that.

Not all of us have this gift and some of us sadly are truly deficient in dipomacy and skill in good apologetic. Many Catholics thought that since they have the true Church and the truth, they think it’s enough to gain friends. Not so. Interpersonal skill is still important.

I am glad you find a good Christian, a Lutheran, in a Catholic forum. I thought I would not last that long if I am to be in a Protestant forum and most probably I would not get anything out of it or perhaps before I would be ejected out.

Once again, God bless you. 🙂
 
kalt said:
We hear the same complaint all the time–that when a new-comer attends Mass, no one notices him, no one talks to him, and when he tries to join he either don’t get an answer or the requirements are too much to bother with.
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I note that those prominent Protestants theologians who converted to Catholicism never said that the friendliness of Catholics as the reason they converted. Perhaps they did not meet any that worthed mentioning! However,many of them said they converted because they found the truth in the Catholic Church.

Interesting, isn’t it?

(Ref. Surprised by the Truth )
 
Reuben_J said:
I note that those prominent Protestants theologians who converted to Catholicism never said that the friendliness of Catholics as the reason they converted. Perhaps they did not meet any that worthed mentioning! However,many of them said they converted because they found the truth in the Catholic Church.

Interesting, isn’t it?

(Ref. Surprised by the Truth )
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It is. Being open and friendly is not a Catholic strong point. No one will come to the Catholic faith because of personalities.

I know people who left the CC for churches that were “warmer”. They were instantly accepted as one of the group, and they were thrilled, feeling that they had finally found Jesus in a church (in the people). What a disappointment when the shine wore off and they found bickering, politics and a decidedly non-Christian attitude working under the blissful surface of the initial welcome.

Now, that’s not to say that Catholics can’t be more friendly, even with each other. One of those books for new-comers to sign would help, I think.

Catholics, though, mostly want to go to Mass and go home. Their social circle is their family and friends, not usually the congregation. What do you think of that? Should that change?

When I grew up, and even when my parents grew up, it was the same. No one hung around after Mass. It was Mass and home for a big meal at home. Or we went visiting family. The focus was always the family.

It was this way from, at the latest, the late 1800’s in this area of the US. I wonder if was also like this in other areas.
 
kalt said:
…

Now, that’s not to say that Catholics can’t be more friendly, even with each other. One of those books for new-comers to sign would help, I think.

Catholics, though, mostly want to go to Mass and go home. Their social circle is their family and friends, not usually the congregation. What do you think of that? Should that change?

…
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Of course it should change! Make the whole congregation a big family circle and friends. I mean that would be ideal. 😉

One of the greatest realities I discover as I get closer to the Lord and so to the Church, is that Catholics are real people. Which exactly means that - real people. Which means you would find all kind of characters there - not so much different as you would in your business circle or neighborhood.

But in all this I guess I can count myself blessed because I was able to found from these ordinary Catholics, people whom I can truly call friends and brothers and sisters in the Lord - people who with their warts and all but to a large extent was transformed by the grace of God and so have become quite tolerable! However, having said that I would not change them for the world because in them I see my own mirror image - my weakness and also my strength.

I am truly blessed to have a group of brothers and sisters Catholics in my archdiocese whom I can call my brothers and my sisters. It takes lots of efforts though to make that happened but thanks God it happened, and they have become gifts from God to me.

God bless.
 
there a three diferent versions of lutheranism there smarty pants and they all dont believe the same thing:rolleyes::p:D
 
kalt said:
SSTeacher;5519160:
Gaining a deeper understanding of the respective theologies sounds very laudable but I have a feeling the average inquirer is probably more interested in confirming that people who proclaim themselves as Christians obey the commandment to love one another. Our Savior enjoined us to do that and added that by doing so all men will know that we are His disciples.

Apparently, the Lutherans have scored high in this area. Perhaps Father Luther wasn’t so bad after all? 🙂

Ecumenically,
Mick
👍
Click to expand...
I think people who don’t know what to believe, tend to look for a place where they feel comfortable. For most people, that means a place where they are noticed when they are there for the first time, where people take the time to talk to them, and where they aren’t required to do anything to join.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess that’s understandable.
kalt said:
We hear the same complaint all the time–that when a new-comer attends Mass, no one notices him, no one talks to him, and when he tries to join he either don’t get an answer or the requirements are too much to bother with.
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Perhaps the reason is because Catholic congregations are generally larger?
kalt said:
The first 2 complaints are valid–to a point. My parish is fairly large and, to be honest, I wouldn’t know a new-comer from someone who usually attends another Mass. I don’t bother with the coffee an’, but did go once so I know how a “stranger” would feel. No one there seemed to be welcoming new people. It didn’t bother me, but I could see that someone who was visiting the church wouldn’t be noticed and would feel like he didn’t belong.
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Yes, but that’s just the settled order. Situations that cause discomfort are inevitable in every area of human endeavor – new job, new boss, new friends, relocating to another area, going to a seminar, a conference, going on a trip, taking a vacation. People who are reserved and shy will doubtless have greater difficulty but there’s no way around it. We all have to learn to interact with each other. But then in some churches there are people who intrude upon one with artificial friendliness. Which is more palatable – the church people who ignore you or the church people who fawn all over you as if you’re some long–lost relative?
kalt said:
The last complaint, though, is invalid. Most people who seriously ask about joining and complain about the answer don’t like the idea that they have to wait until the next round of RCIA classes start, and that they won’t become a Catholic until the following Easter. They don’t understand anything about it yet, and so the balk. They think that it will be like most other Christian churches and they’ll be able to walk in, sign on the dotted line and they’re Catholic.
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I daresay the Catholic and Orthodox Churches probably appear to the rest of Christendom as similar in this respect.
kalt said:
They want to be Catholic, they think, but they actually don’t know anything about it yet. They’re really still in the searching stage. It seems that they’re still looking for some place that is psychologically comfortable. They haven’t even scratched the theological surface of Catholicism.
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Well, perhaps so. They’re searching, anyway.
kalt said:
Becoming Catholic is a serious decision. It’s not something you do on a Sunday morning because you liked the smells and bells or the architecture.
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Fair point.
kalt said:
The CC expects a person to know something about the faith before they join. We’re not into increasing our numbers any way possible. We don’t take people in and hope they’ll learn the faith later.
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And neither does the Orthodox Church. But I think that’s more or less what happens in the rest of Christendom. And I daresay it’s the rest of Christendom that shapes the general level of expectation for church visitors?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
Guyonthestreet said:
Having had the experience of God in my life, I moved from a total non believer, to a believer in God and his Son Our Lord Jesus the Christ.

I have been on a search ever since.

That has led me here, and I will continue to explore catholicism and orthodoxy as I have been looking at these churchs for a long time now.

However, what I never considered, ever, was going to a Lutheran Church.

But due to the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Lutheran posters here, I have been quietly in the background reading a lot more on Luther, Lutheranism, and The Augsburg Confession. The way Lutherans have conducted themsleves here has made me want to look further into what informs their beliefs.

Tomorrow, I am going to a Lutheran Church for Morning Prayers at 9.50am followed by Choral Eucharist at 11am.

I am guessing it will be very similar to a catholic church service, but I’ve never heard of a Choral Eucharist before. Sounds beautiful.

Now, I’m not saying I am going to become a Lutheran or anything else. Still expoloring and will be for some time to come expect.

But the Lutheran posters here have been very impressive in their charity, erudition, knowledge and manifistation of their faith, and I’m finding Lutheranism very compelling right now if that is the end result.

I’m looking forward to attending my first Lutheran Service.
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It sounds not so very different froman Anglican Choral Eucharist. I hope you recognise what you are looking for when you find it 🙂​

The problem with the idea in the title, is that it is impossible to apply (the use of that saying as the title implies that the thread is going to be about what is said in that saying. For all practical purposes, the saying is useless: even in context.
 
querying said:
Good luck!

But remember that they do not have valid sacraments nor apostolic succession, and are not recognised by either the Orthodox or Catholic Church. That ought to tell you something…
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Jesus had no “canonical mission” from the authorities of His time either; He was as self-constituted as Elijah or Amos. “But Elijah & Amos were inspired Prophets raised up by God” - sure: but they had no means of proving it that would satisfy a canon lawyer: inspiration by God can’t be pinned down like a butterfly on a card & put out for inspection & analysis. It was known by its character and fruits, not by the legitimacy of its status in canon law. How can Prophets be prophetic, if they are allowed to speak only on condition of not rocking the boat, even when it needs rocking ?​

Jesus would have fared very badly if the “Church” of His time had been one of canonists & dogmaticians :eek:
 
kalt said:
It is. Being open and friendly is not a Catholic strong point. No one will come to the Catholic faith because of personalities.

I know people who left the CC for churches that were “warmer”. They were instantly accepted as one of the group, and they were thrilled, feeling that they had finally found Jesus in a church (in the people). What a disappointment when the shine wore off and they found bickering, politics and a decidedly non-Christian attitude working under the blissful surface of the initial welcome.

Now, that’s not to say that Catholics can’t be more friendly, even with each other. One of those books for new-comers to sign would help, I think.

Catholics, though, mostly want to go to Mass and go home. Their social circle is their family and friends, not usually the congregation. What do you think of that? Should that change?

When I grew up, and even when my parents grew up, it was the same. No one hung around after Mass. It was Mass and home for a big meal at home. Or we went visiting family. The focus was always the family.

It was this way from, at the latest, the late 1800’s in this area of the US. I wonder if was also like this in other areas.
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Hello Kalt,

No, it is not like that here in Guam. 90% of the people on Guam are Catholics. My church is large, but we all know each other in church. Our congregation is like a second family. After Mass, many people stay back just to talk and catch up on what’s going on. Also, every year we have village fiestas. In my village, we celebrate two fiestas - Our Lady of Peace (which is our village patron saint) and the Sacred Heart. The fiestas always begins at the church. Everyone in the village would bring food to the church social hall. After the Mass, everyone socializes and enjoys the food. We also have cultural dances and songs in our fiestas. The number of people in a church fiesta is approximately 400-600 people. In other villages, it can number to more than a thousand. After the church fiesta, the next day, the entire village would celebrate a fiesta in their own homes. At any rate, a fiesta is celebrated in every village on my island at different times of the year except during Lent. Every village on my island has its own patron saint.

We also invite performers to our church. Because my priest is originally from the archdiose of Japan, he invited Japanese performers to perform Japanese cultural dance and songs in church after the Mass. People stayed back to watch the Japanese performers. Because they are visitors to our island, it is always customary to invite them to a lunch or dinner. Lunch or dinner for us means “a party.” Two of those Japanese performers saw how the people got along so well with each other during the “party” lunch that they wanted to convert to Catholicism despite the fact that they don’t know a single thing about the religion. The love that they see displayed by the people was enough to convert them. Those two Japanese performers went to my priest and told him that they wanted to convert to Catholicism.

Catholics are supposed to take what they learned from Mass and apply it to the outside world because we are the light of Christ and all who see our light will praise God. As St. Paul says, we are to put away our old self and become a new creature of Christ. And when we become this new creature of Christ, then we truly can love God and our neighbors.

Peace be with you,
Selene
 
Guyonthestreet said:
Having had the experience of God in my life, I moved from a total non believer, to a believer in God and his Son Our Lord Jesus the Christ.

I have been on a search ever since.

That has led me here, and I will continue to explore catholicism and orthodoxy as I have been looking at these churchs for a long time now.

However, what I never considered, ever, was going to a Lutheran Church.

But due to the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Lutheran posters here, I have been quietly in the background reading a lot more on Luther, Lutheranism, and The Augsburg Confession. The way Lutherans have conducted themsleves here has made me want to look further into what informs their beliefs.

Tomorrow, I am going to a Lutheran Church for Morning Prayers at 9.50am followed by Choral Eucharist at 11am.

I am guessing it will be very similar to a catholic church service, but I’ve never heard of a Choral Eucharist before. Sounds beautiful.

Now, I’m not saying I am going to become a Lutheran or anything else. Still expoloring and will be for some time to come expect.

But the Lutheran posters here have been very impressive in their charity, erudition, knowledge and manifistation of their faith, and I’m finding Lutheranism very compelling right now if that is the end result.

I’m looking forward to attending my first Lutheran Service.
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I’ve had some great interaction with Lutherans as well as many other mainline protestant denominations. I think that in many ways the Lutherans and Catholics here get along because we have more in common than we have disputes on many matters that other protestant denominations take very non-Catholic positions on, e.g. infant baptism, real presence, a ministerial priesthood, etc. But there are some Lutherans who hold to the old protestant position that the Pope is the anti-Christ. It’s hard to find common ground with this particular group, but overall I concur that of those who find themselves at this site, Lutherans are among the better posters.

I hope that you continue to search for truth and remain open to wherever that search may take you.

Peace,
Robert
 
Remember this. There are good people and people of good will in every religion. You shouldn’t convert to a religion just because the people you met at a particular service are nice. Convert for the truth. Trust me, I’ve seen some very uncharitable Catholics in my time. There are also very uncharitable Lutherans, Orthodox, Muslims, Hindus, etc. But my conversion was not based on the few bad apples I’ve seen, but the entire truth that I searched for.

Look at the examples of the religious brothers and sisters and priests who give up their pleasures and marriage in order to serve the Lord their entire lives! Look at the examples of all the saints and martyrs. Look at the miracles which God has shown us. Type in Miracle of Lanciano for a great example.

And don’t forget who gave you the Bible which some try to refute the Catholics with. It was the Catholic Church.

At least you are honestly searching for the truth, which few people want to do anymore. People aren’t willing to follow God a lot of times because it isn’t convenient for them. That you have faith in Jesus Christ is already a great sign! I will say a prayer that you may be led to the truth. God bless you! 😉
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Jesus had no “canonical mission” from the authorities of His time either; He was as self-constituted as Elijah or Amos. “But Elijah & Amos were inspired Prophets raised up by God” - sure: but they had no means of proving it that would satisfy a canon lawyer: inspiration by God can’t be pinned down like a butterfly on a card & put out for inspection & analysis. It was known by its character and fruits, not by the legitimacy of its status in canon law. How can Prophets be prophetic, if they are allowed to speak only on condition of not rocking the boat, even when it needs rocking ?​

Jesus would have fared very badly if the “Church” of His time had been one of canonists & dogmaticians :eek:
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I think He didn’t fare so well anyway. 😉
 
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