By What Standard Do You Examine Your Beliefs?

[Spyridon]

The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Christian Church, the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ, She Who can neither deceive nor be deceived, She Who’s bosom the Sacred Scriptures were authored in, transmitted in, vouchsafed and kept safe and secure in, She is the Infallible Magisterial Authority on Earth given to all men by which they are to conform themselves in mind and spirit.

 

[De_Maria]

Please note one section of text where I made an argument from authority. …

You’re off topic. I didn’t reply to this thread to discuss your logic class. Read the OP and get back on topic.

 

[De_Maria]

Cthompson, can you tell me where Sacred Tradition comes from?

From Jesus Christ. The Church merely Teaches everything that He commanded.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Todd_Easton]

“If a man should doubt the knowledge and understanding of anything written in Scripture, he is not wise then to take upon himself the authority to interpret, boldly depending on his own mind. Instead, he should depend on the interpretation of the holy teachers and the saints of old, and on the interpretation that has been received and allowed by the universal Church. For it was the Church through which the Scripture has come into our hands and been delivered to us in the first place, and without the Church, as St. Augustine says, we could not know which books were Holy Scripture.” (St. Thomas More) (source)

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

What Jesus Christ commanded was written into scripture, correct?

 

[De_Maria]

What made you think he was a Bible-only Protestant? I see no indication of that.

I talk to them all the time. In this case, the tell tale hint was:

I examine my beliefs according to my church, which I view as my highest authority

This is a common misunderstanding of Catholic Doctrine which is almost exclusively held by Bible only Protestants.

 

[De_Maria]

You asked: “Should we believe our personal and private interpretation of Scripture? Or, since we are fallible humans, should we instead, obey Scripture’s instructions and learn the Word of God from our rulers in the Church?”

The Holy Spirit is our Helper. He gives understanding. From Job 32:8 - "“But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.”

There is no mention of Scripture in that verse. So, you’re rejecting both Scripture and the Church if you lean on that verse.

Yes, there are some parts of scripture that are more difficult to understand than others, but as Psalm 119:130 says, “The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple”. Job 32:8 As I often marvel, there is so much in scripture that even a child can understand.

God’s words also unfold when someone is preaching. So, perhaps a child can understand it, but the child must first be taught the context in which that was written. And the Jews who wrote the Psalms, were not Bible only folks.

But yes, your point is well taken regarding Hebrews 13:7, but it should not be a blind, unquestioning trust.

Ok

God does provide us with good teachers and preachers of His Word. However, man is man, and there’s always the potential that a preacher/teacher may have a wrong motive or agenda (there are many false teachers - wolves in sheep’s clothing out there!!!). That’s why we must always measure what they say against scripture to see if it is actually true.

Here’s where Protestants get into trouble. They regard their interpretation of Scripture as Scripture. But that’s false. Since you mentioned the Bereans below, I’ll illustrate what I mean, there.

cont’d

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

No, I mean that the Catholic Church gets some push-back for teaching infallibility, but every religion teaches that their interpretation is the right one.
In other words, infallibility.
The OP is Protestant and wanted to know if church teaching is the standard by which we judge ( something like that–I can’t see the original post on my screen right now )

 

[De_Maria]

Even in biblical times, the teachings of Paul were scrutinized by the Bereans who examined what Paul and Silas taught.

Agreed.

Paul said of them,

Actually, St. Luke wrote those words.

" Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." They modelled what we should do also when we receive preaching/teaching.

No, they don’t. They model what Catholics do. Let me explain.

If you go back to the beginning of the Chapter, you will find that the Thessalonicans rejected St. Paul’s Teaching. Yet, they also compared his Teaching to Scripture.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Notice that this was his manner. So, this is the same thing he did with the Bereans. But the Bereans accepted his words.

1. The Bereans did not have the New Testament. Nor did the Thessalonicans.
2. They both had the Old Testament.
3. St. Paul was Teaching them what Jesus Christ commanded should be taught. Those words were not yet written.
4. The Bereans accepted his word. His word consisted of the Traditions that Jesus Christ commanded be Taught.
5. The Thessalonicans rejected his word.

Thus, the difference between the Bereans and the Thessalonicans which made the Bereans noble, is that they accepted the Sacred Traditions which were passed down by Jesus Christ through His Church.

We call this the Three Legged Stool of Sacred Tradition, Scripture and the Teaching of Jesus Christ through the Church (i.e. Magisterium).

Something for us to always remember too is Psalm 111:10 - “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.”

Amen! Also this one:

Proverbs 3:Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[De_Maria]

I believe that scripture, the Word of God, is the only reliable source of truth that we have.

But Scripture says that we can rely on the Word of God which is taught us by our rulers in the Church. (Heb 13:7). So, why do you doubt Scripture?

Mankind has a way of creating traditions that may not necessarily agree with what He gave us through the writers of scripture through divine inspiration.

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit protected the Church FIRST.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

And Scripture doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit ever stopped protecting the Church.

Can you give me an example of Sacred Tradition that you would hold to that is included in the Bible?

The Mass (Heb 10:25-31)
Confession (2 Cor 5:20)

There are many more.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

But Scripture says that we can rely on the Word of God which is taught us by our rulers in the Church. (Heb 13:7). So, why do you doubt Scripture?

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit protected the Church FIRST.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

And Scripture doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit ever stopped protecting the Church.
[/quote]

I have no problem believing Hebrews 13:7 which says, “Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct”.

I do notice though, that there are a couple of conditions attached regarding how we view those who rule over us…(1) they will have spoken the word of God to us (not unsound doctrine) and (2) we are to consider the outcome of their conduct (these days there’s a lot of corruption in churches. So again, we must be willing to discern not only what is spoken to us in church but also consider the character of the speakers.

In what way does 2 Peter 1:19-21have to do with God’s protection of the church? I read it several times within the context of the previous verses. What I understand it to say is that Peter and other eye witnesses saw prophecy fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ. (v. 16) Therefore, the prophetic word was confirmed. (v.19) and then Peter makes the point in v. 20 that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation, for it never came by the will of man, but to holy men who were moved by the Holy Spirit. (v. 21)

 

[De_Maria]

I have no problem believing Hebrews 13:7 which says, “Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct”.

I do notice though, that there are a couple of conditions attached regarding how we view those who rule over us…(1) they will have spoken the word of God to us (not unsound doctrine)

Very good. So, why do you believe the unsound doctrine of “sola” Scriptura?

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

and (2) we are to consider the outcome of their conduct (these days there’s a lot of corruption in churches. So again, we must be willing to discern not only what is spoken to us in church but also consider the character of the speakers.

Agreed. I, personally, have not met any Catholic priests who are not upstanding citizens. Have you?

In what way does 2 Peter 1:19-21have to do with God’s protection of the church? I read it several times within the context of the previous verses.

We read it within the context of all of Scripture. Does Scripture contradict itself?

What I understand it to say is that Peter and other eye witnesses saw prophecy fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ. (v. 16)

Agreed.

Therefore, the prophetic word was confirmed. (v.19)

A MORE sure word.

and then Peter makes the point in v. 20 that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation,

In other words, you aren’t free to interpret Scripture any way you want.

for it never came by the will of man, but to holy men who were moved by the Holy Spirit. (v. 21)

Holy men were inspired. See, Protestants like to say that the Bible is inspired. But what they forget is that Holy men of the Church were inspired by the Holy Spirit to PREACH and to write.

And, we read this in context of the fact that Jesus Christ will always be with the Church:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That means that Jesus Christ will ensure that Catholic Teaching is correct.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

“So, why do you believe the unsound doctrine of “sola” Scriptura?”

I believe that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible. I know that answer is inadequate so here is a link to expound on that topic: https://www.christiantruth.com/articles/bahnsen.html

” I, personally, have not met any Catholic priests who are not upstanding citizens. Have you?”

While I have not met any Catholic priests personally, there are many who have been reported by the media to not have been upstanding citizens. Some have been made to answer to their ways before the courts.
I have been to one Catholic funeral for a coworker. The officiating priest blatantly went against scripture when he “assured” the congregation that the deceased was sure for heaven soley because she had been baptized as an infant. I don’t know what his standard of beliefs was, but it was not scripture. I was left totally stunned and grieved for all the people he was leading astray.

” In other words, you aren’t free to interpret Scripture any way you want.”

Agreed. How I interpret scripture must agree with other scripture. I like the term used by a favourite pastor – “Scripture sharpens scripture”. For true believers in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us and helps us to understand scripture. Of course, ministers of God’s word who stick to His word are to be learned from. While there aren’t many like that around, I truly appreciate them.
In answer to my question: “In what way does 2 Peter 1:19-21 have to do with God’s protection of the church?” you answered,

” We read it within the context of all of Scripture. Does Scripture contradict itself?

I thought you were using 2 Peter 1:19-21 to refer to God’s protection of the church. Does scripture contradict itself? I say no.

"That means that Jesus Christ will ensure that Catholic Teaching is correct.”

I disagree because there many Catholic teachings that do not line up with scripture.

 

[De_Maria]

“So, why do you believe the unsound doctrine of “sola” Scriptura?”

I believe that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible.

So do I. The difference is that I don’t add the word “alone” to Bible.

I know that answer is inadequate so here is a link to expound on that topic:

No thanks. I’m sure I’ve read that and much more. It all falls apart when you consider that the doctrine is not found in Scripture.

That’s right. You can’t find any verse in the Bible which teaches "that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible “alone”.

I added the word “alone”, because you left it out and that’s what you mean. If that’s not what you mean, then you agree with the Catholic Church.

While I have not met any Catholic priests personally, there are many who have been reported by the media to not have been upstanding citizens.

Actually, very few in comparison to the actual number of priests. Of course, one is too many. But you haven’t heard anything about the more numerous problems in all the Protestant denominations. Yet, they are documented, as well.

Some have been made to answer to their ways before the courts.
I have been to one Catholic funeral for a coworker. The officiating priest blatantly went against scripture when he “assured” the congregation that the deceased was sure for heaven soley because she had been baptized as an infant. I don’t know what his standard of beliefs was, but it was not scripture. I was left totally stunned and grieved for all the people he was leading astray.

That’s hard to believe, since I’ve been to very many Catholic funerals and never heard any Priest say anything wrong. So, that’s your word against mine.

Agreed. How I interpret scripture must agree with other scripture.

Who judges that you’ve interpreted ANY of those scriptures correctly?

I like the term used by a favourite pastor – “Scripture sharpens scripture”. For true believers in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us and helps us to understand scripture. Of course, ministers of God’s word who stick to His word are to be learned from. While there aren’t many like that around, I truly appreciate them.

Lol! So, basically, if the preacher doesn’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture, you don’t judge him to be a good minister.

I disagree because there many Catholic teachings that do not line up with scripture.

That’s impossible, because in reality, the Scriptures must line up with Catholic Teaching because they were written on the basis of Catholic Teaching. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament.

But, if that is your claim, name one. We’ll examine it and compare it to Scripture and to your interpretation thereof.

Meantime, I challenge you to find in Scripture the idea "that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible “alone”.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

I have time to address one point only right now, so will go ahead with just this::

“That’s hard to believe, since I’ve been to very many Catholic funerals and never heard any Priest say anything wrong. So, that’s your word against mine.”

Why is that hard to believe? There is disagreement even between Catholic clergy and the pope on what they perceive as the pope’s heretical beliefs? If you haven’t already, see http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...ope-francis-of-upholding-heretical-positions/

 

[De_Maria]

I have time to address one point only right now, so will go ahead with just this::

“That’s hard to believe, since I’ve been to very many Catholic funerals and never heard any Priest say anything wrong. So, that’s your word against mine.”

Why is that hard to believe? There is disagreement even between Catholic clergy and the pope on what they perceive as the pope’s heretical beliefs? If you haven’t already, see http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...ope-francis-of-upholding-heretical-positions/

That has happened many times through the ages. The first one is one that Protestants grasp on when they claim that St Paul was the leader of the Church. We call it “fraternal correction” and it has rarely resulted in schism or any other problem.

So, since you’ve had your shot. Now I expect you to try to prove your words from Scripture. You said, “I believe that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible (alone).”

See you then.

 

[Cruciferi]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
I have a golden measuring rod. Does that count?

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

So, since you’ve had your shot. Now I expect you to try to prove your words from Scripture. You said, “I believe that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible (alone).”

See you then.

So we’re in agreement that error and disagreement can and do occur through Catholic clergy? You can be assured that the account I gave regarding that funeral is absolutely true. I will not ever stoop to fudging the truth in order to make a point.

The Bible is very clear regarding the dangers of adding to God’s word. That is what is being done when man-made writings are viewed to be as the same authority that scripture holds. One warning is found in Proverbs 30:5-6:
“Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.”

Take, for example, the matter of plenary and partial indulgences, which is in direct conflict with what scripture says about God’s forgiveness, mercy, and justification. I saw a thread yesterday regarding this topic and I have t say I felt the pain on one inquirer who wanted to know about indulgences in relation to his sin. If only he would receive from scripture what it says about the forgiveness and remission of sin! True Christians have the assurance from 1 John 1:9 that “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

Christ offered Himself to us as the perfect sacrifice. From Hebrews 10: 14-18:
“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.”

Also from Psalm 103: 11-13:
“For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.”

The death of Jesus Christ was absolutely sufficient to pay our penalty for sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness! Sure, we still suffer the consequences of our sin while we are here on earth, but those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ, as it is written in the gospels, can be assured that there will be no further payment required after they die. We don’t deserve this wonderful grace of God, but His love and mercy far exceeds our human understanding.

This is just one example of the seriousness of heeding man’s tradition/writings over God’s word as it is written in the Bible.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Faith is a gift from God. Why should we need a standard other than to guide us? The Church is the guide.

 

[De_Maria]

So we’re in agreement that error and disagreement can and do occur through Catholic clergy?

Who said that it couldn’t?

You can be assured that the account I gave regarding that funeral is absolutely true. I will not ever stoop to fudging the truth in order to make a point.

If you say so.

The Bible is very clear regarding the dangers of adding to God’s word. That is what is being done when man-made writings are viewed to be as the same authority that scripture holds.

Where does Scripture say that God’s word is reduced to Scripture alone?

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

One warning is found in Proverbs 30:5-6:
“Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.”

Jews did not teach Scripture alone. Therefore, the term “word of God” here, is the Word which is taught by word of mouth and by Scripture.

Take, for example, the matter of plenary and partial indulgences, which is in direct conflict with what scripture says about God’s forgiveness, mercy, and justification. I saw a thread yesterday regarding this topic and I have t say I felt the pain on one inquirer who wanted to know about indulgences in relation to his sin. If only he would receive from scripture what it says about the forgiveness and remission of sin! True Christians have the assurance from 1 John 1:9 that “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

Here is what Jesus said about indulgences:

Mark 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

How did the widow cast more in the treasury than anyone else? And do you think that she did so only for herself?

Christ offered Himself to us as the perfect sacrifice. From Hebrews 10: 14-18:
“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.”

Are you saying that Hebrews 10 contradicts itself?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

cont’d