By What Standard Do You Examine Your Beliefs?

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Also from Psalm 103: 11-13:
“For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.”

That is only for those who have repented of their sins. Not for those who haven’t. And if we look at Heb 10 again, we see that He doesn’t care very much for those who reject the one Sacrifice which is left for our sins:

Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The death of Jesus Christ was absolutely sufficient to pay our penalty for sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness! Sure, we still suffer the consequences of our sin while we are here on earth, but those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ, as it is written in the gospels, can be assured that there will be no further payment required after they die. We don’t deserve this wonderful grace of God, but His love and mercy far exceeds our human understanding.

But you don’t understand the Gospels. And therefore you preach another gospel which was not intended by Jesus Christ and which opposes Jesus Christ.

This is just one example of the seriousness of heeding man’s tradition/writings over God’s word as it is written in the Bible.

You’ve not answered the question I asked. Whereas, I’ve provided much evidence to contradict what you claimed. So, I’ll ask you again, where does Scripture say that everything God wanted to reveal to man about His truths are contained in the Gob-breathed inspired word which is contained in the Bible (alone)?

Answer the question. Don’t try to dance around it.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Where does Scripture say that God’s word is reduced to Scripture alone?

I don’t know of any place in scripture that says that God’s word is reduced to scripture alone. However, we can rely on scripture to be God’s word and to be true. Here’s one claim made by scripture itself:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,…” 2 Timothy 3:16
There is no other religious book of any faith that meets that standard perfectly like the word of God does in scripture. If you disagree with that, please feel free to name one other book that is God-breathed and perfectly lines up with His word.

Jews did not teach Scripture alone. Therefore, the term “word of God” here, is the Word which is taught by word of mouth and by Scripture.

In biblical times, the word of God came through the mouths of prophets and apostles and those words were recorded and preserved in what we now know as scripture. Today we have the benefit of a complete set of books in the Bible which we can rely on to be the true word of God. Any oral teachings from our preachers and teachers today must line up with the word of God. That’s a huge responsibility because as James 3:1-2 says:
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.”

Here is what Jesus said about indulgences:
Mark 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
How did the widow cast more in the treasury than anyone else? And do you think that she did so only for herself

That has nothing to do with indulgences! Jesus was pointing out how that poor widow was giving sacrificially when she was offering all she had to the treasury while the rich people were giving out of their abundance (v. 43 - 44 “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”)

More to come…

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Christ offered Himself to us as the perfect sacrifice. From Hebrews 10: 14-18:

“For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.”

Are you saying that Hebrews 10 contradicts itself?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

No, there is no contradiction. I’m very aware that many protestant churches are going off the rails on this issue. We must remain in the faith and for those who do remain in the faith (or walk in the light) we have this assurance as 1 John 1:8 says, " But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin". And then, " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 Of course, living in a state of repentance is at the heart of this matter.

Hebrews 10:26 is a very dire warning to those who want to continue living in a state of sin. They trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace. Those are not the actions of people who are walking in the light, as above. Some of the people spoken of in Hebrews 10 claim to be Christians, and maybe at one time they were, but they left the faith but their sinful ways lead to the horrible consequences as outlined in the rest of the chapter.

I’ll try and get to the rest of your responses tomorrow…

 

[De_Maria]

I don’t know of any place in scripture that says that God’s word is reduced to scripture alone.

Good. Thanks for admitting that. Therefore the Catholic Doctrine is correct. We must hold to Scripture and Tradition.

However, we can rely on scripture to be God’s word and to be true.

That’s Catholic Doctrine.

Scripture also says that we can rely upon Tradition (2 Thess 2:15).
And that we can rely upon the Church (Eph 3:10).

Here’s one claim made by scripture itself:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,…” 2 Timothy 3:16

Again, that is Catholic Doctrine.

There is no other religious book of any faith that meets that standard perfectly like the word of God does in scripture.

Again, Catholic Doctrine.

But there is also no other Church of any faith which meets the standard of infallibility like the Catholic Church (1 Tim 3:15).

If you disagree with that, please feel free to name one other book that is God-breathed and perfectly lines up with His word.

I don’t. If you disagree with me, feel free to show any church of any faith that you think is infallible.

In biblical times, the word of God came through the mouths of prophets and apostles and those words were recorded and preserved in what we now know as scripture.

Scripture doesn’t say that. Protestants made that up in order to rebel against God. What Scripture does say, is that we need to learn the Word of God from our Rulers (Heb 13:7).

Today we have the benefit of a complete set of books in the Bible which we can rely on to be the true word of God.

The only reason you can rely upon those books is because God’s infallible CATHOLIC CHURCH wrote the New Testament and selected the books of the Old Testament that would be included in the Bible.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Any oral teachings from our preachers and teachers today must line up with the word of God. That’s a huge responsibility because as James 3:1-2 says:

“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.”

The Bible also says that the Church Teaches the Wisdom of God, that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, and that the Church Teaches the Word of God.

That has nothing to do with indulgences!

You say that because you don’t know the meaning of indulgences.

Jesus was pointing out how that poor widow was giving sacrificially when she was offering all

Didn’t you say there was no more sacrifice for sins? Now, think about this. For whom was the widow sacrificing? Her dead husband?

2 Macc 12:43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

O, wait. That’s one of the books that Luther cast out of God’s Word.

she had to the treasury while the rich people were giving out of their abundance (v. 43 - 44 “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”)

Yeah. Here’s another:

Matthew 19:21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me.

 

[De_Maria]

No, there is no contradiction. I’m very aware that many protestant churches are going off the rails on this issue.

Other Protestant churches are not at issue here. What about you? Do you reject Christ’s offering for your sins? Do you reject the Mass and therefore show contempt for the Son of God, consider unclean the covenant-blood by which you were consecrated, and insult the Spirit of grace?

We must remain in the faith and for those who do remain in the faith (or walk in the light) we have this assurance as 1 John 1:8 says, " But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin".

Yeah! In the Eucharist! Where do you receive the Blood of Christ if you deny the Eucharist?

And then, " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 Of course, living in a state of repentance is at the heart of this matter.

But you don’t confess your sins. You don’t recognize the Confessional in these words, do you?

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

It is in Confession that the Priest prays for us in Christ’s stead and the Priest beseeches us in God’s name. But you have rejected the Traditions of Christ, therefore you make up your own mind what you attribute to these words.

Hebrews 10:26 is a very dire warning to those who want to continue living in a state of sin. They trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace.

It’s a grave warning for those who miss the Mass and reject the Holy Eucharist in the Body and Blood of the Lord.

Those are not the actions of people who are walking in the light, as above. Some of the people spoken of in Hebrews 10 claim to be Christians, and maybe at one time they were, but they left the faith but their sinful ways lead to the horrible consequences as outlined in the rest of the chapter.

Very true. Especially for those who reject the only sacrifice which remains for their sins. The sacrifice of Calvary.

I think you’re caught up. And now I’ve caught up.

Anyway, may God bless you. I’m looking forward to your new responses.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

De_Maria, I would agree that I likely don’t have a good understanding of indulgence. Help me understand how you see what Mark 12:43 has to indulgences.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria, I would agree that I likely don’t have a good understanding of indulgence. Help me understand how you see what Mark 12:43 has to indulgences.

Indulgence
Without getting technical with it, it is another word for “graces”.

Catholic Encyclopedia:

The word indulgence (Latin indulgentia, from indulgeo, to be kind or tender) originally meant kindness or favor

Grace
The poor widow put in her few pennies and received graces in return. Notice that God favored her with much more grace than the other people who put in to the treasury. This is the indulgence that she received from God.

Dirty rags
Understand that God doesn’t want pennies or dollars. He doesn’t need them. He doesn’t need hers’ or anyone else’s. They are like dirty rags to Him. BUT God sees the works of love which we do in His name and He is not unrighteous to forget them. Therefore, He imbues with with merit and returns our favor with grace.

We read Scripture differently
Correct me if I’m wrong, but when you see the words, “poor widow cast her money in the treasury”, you just see a woman who is dressed poorly, maybe like a homeless person on the street.

When Catholics see the words, “poor widow cast her money in the treasury”, we see a prayerful woman, crying over the absence of her beloved husband. And petitioning God for favor on behalf of her children and her elderly parents. These words mean something to us because see it happen every time we go to Church and see people lighting candles for their loved ones. Or putting money in the poor box.

I hope that helps.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

We read Scripture differently

Correct me if I’m wrong, but when you see the words, “poor widow cast her money in the treasury”, you just see a woman who is dressed poorly, maybe like a homeless person on the street.

I look into the context to get the right understanding. In this case, the poor widow threw her two mites into the treasury. Then Jesus said to his disciples, " “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.” Note “out of her poverty” this widow “put in all that she had, her whole livelihood”. Clearly she was desperately poor, and still she put in all she had into the treasury.

When Catholics see the words, “poor widow cast her money in the treasury”, we see a prayerful woman, crying over the absence of her beloved husband. And petitioning God for favor on behalf of her children and her elderly parents. These words mean something to us because see it happen every time we go to Church and see people lighting candles for their loved ones. Or putting money in the poor box.

So the question I would have is - Why?! This account in Mark 12:41 to 44 is particularly clearly stated. Adding to it changes its meaning which we are surely warned against doing.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

De_Maria

I think you’re caught up. And now I’ve caught up.

LOL…hardly! You’ve brought up so many key issues that are worth talking about. Will get to them when I can.

 

[De_Maria]

So the question I would have is - Why?! This account in Mark 12:41 to 44 is particularly clearly stated. Adding to it changes its meaning which we are surely warned against doing.

Because we understand what she’s doing. And why. I provided the link to Macc showing how Jews pray and offer sacrifice for their beloved dead. This shows that this is something the People of God were doing from Old Testament times.

Notice that Jesus mentioned the fact she’s a widow. If that wasn’t important to the context, He would have simply said woman.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Because we understand what she’s doing. And why. I provided the link to Macc showing how Jews pray and offer sacrifice for their beloved dead. This shows that this is something the People of God were doing from Old Testament times.

Notice that Jesus mentioned the fact she’s a widow. If that wasn’t important to the context, He would have simply said woman

None of that is relevant to the point that Jesus was making when He said, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.” He was simply contrasting her gift of 100% of what she had to the others’ gifts of lessor percentages of their abundance.

As always, I will choose to believe the words of Christ over man’s. I hope others will too and with that, I will lay this to rest.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Scripture also says that we can rely upon Tradition (2 Thess 2:15).

True enough, but there are also many warnings in scripture against following the traditions of men, one being from Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” In other words, the traditions of man must always be in agreement with the word of God (scripture).

And that we can rely upon the Church (Eph 3:10).

But only insofar as to the church’s adherence to what God has revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; (see v.4). We all know that there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing out there and the Bible warns strongly against them:

The elders in the church of Ephesus were warned in Acts 20:29-31:
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."

That warning stands for us today. And we see how many churches have been infiltrated by savage wolves who do not teach truth.

 

[De_Maria]

None of that is relevant to the point that Jesus was making when He said, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.” He was simply contrasting her gift of 100% of what she had to the others’ gifts of lessor percentages of their abundance.

As always, I will choose to believe the words of Christ over man’s. I hope others will too and with that, I will lay this to rest.

All you did was wave off my explanation without a reason. My explanation stands.

 

[De_Maria]

Scripture also says that we can rely upon Tradition (2 Thess 2:15).

True enough, but there are also many warnings in scripture against following the traditions of men, one being from Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” In other words, the traditions of man must always be in agreement with the word of God (scripture).

True. Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men.

Catholic Doctrine is composed of the Traditions which Jesus Christ passed down through the Church. And they are the basis of the New Testament Scriptures.

And that we can rely upon the Church (Eph 3:10).

But only insofar as to the church’s adherence to what God has revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; (see v.4). We all know that there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing out there and the Bible warns strongly against them:

The elders in the church of Ephesus were warned in Acts 20:29-31:
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."

That warning stands for us today. And we see how many churches have been infiltrated by savage wolves who do not teach truth.

[/QUOTE]
No doubt. But the Catholic Church has never taught false Doctrine. All her Teachings stand up to scrutiny. Any doctrine which does not agree with the Catholic Church, also disagrees with Scripture. The reason being that the Catholic Church carefully selected all the books of the Old Testament and wrote the New Testament by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

No doubt. But the Catholic Church has never taught false Doctrine. All her Teachings stand up to scrutiny. Any doctrine which does not agree with the Catholic Church, also disagrees with Scripture.

Well let’s put that to the test. (“Test all things; hold fast what is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Could we start with the doctrine of purgatory? (1030-1032 CCC) This doctrine conflicts with scripture because it denies the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrificial death: Continued…

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Continuation…

According to scripture:
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:7-10

“We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (Hebrews 10:10-14).

For those who repent and believe (trust) in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. We will not suffer for our sins in purgatory - Jesus Christ paid our sin debt in full.

 

[Jestersage]

That’s call Church, which is an option.

 

[nearlycatholic]

Capiche? Italian for God bless you brother!

 

[De_Maria]

Well let’s put that to the test. (“Test all things; hold fast what is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Sure. Sorry I took so long to reply. I got caught up with something else.

Could we start with the doctrine of purgatory? (1030-1032 CCC) This doctrine conflicts with scripture because it denies the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrificial death:

I don’t agree. I think it is because of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrificial death that we can be purified of sin in Purgatory.

According to scripture:

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus Christ also cleanses of sin in Purgatory.

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:7-10

The blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse of all unrighteousness, even in Purgatory.

“We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” (Hebrews 10:10-14).

I know that you understand the term, “once for all” to mean, “all at once”. But, obviously, the term can’t mean that, because if it did, then the only ones that were made holy would be the ones that lived at the time of the Crucifixion.

We understand the term, “once for all” to mean, “once for all time and for everyone”. We also understand that we are being “made holy”. Thus, it was not a done deal at the time of the Crucifixion. Jesus accomplished all He had set out to do. But we still had to do our part and live our lives. And, if we died imperfectly, with sin still on our souls, then God would have to cleanse our souls before we could be admitted into heaven.

Notice that in Purgatory, we don’t cleanse ourselves. God cleanses us.

For those who repent and believe (trust) in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

True. Either here or in the world to come.

We will not suffer for our sins in purgatory - Jesus Christ paid our sin debt in full.

Some will. Those who die in an imperfect state of grace will have to pay for their sins.

cont’d