By what/who are we saved?

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Thanks for all the brilliant helpful replies.
**
Bookcat #4 & #5**

Agreement seems to be emerging.

It seems generally agreed that we are saved/justified/made righteous by Jesus.
We are saved by faith not by works.
We seem to agree with John Barclay, as previously stated, that grace is unconditional (received incongruously by God’s gratuitous gift) but it is not unconditioned (we are expected to respond).

However the ‘faith of Christ’ that saves us is his faithfulness, not our faith in God. If it were our faith we would save ourselves by our actions or works.
 
NoelFitz said:
Thanks for all the brilliant helpful replies.
**
Bookcat #4 & #5**

Agreement seems to be emerging.

It seems generally agreed that we are saved/justified/made righteous by Jesus.
We are saved by faith not by works.
We seem to agree with John Barclay, as previously stated, that grace is unconditional (received incongruously by God’s gratuitous gift) but it is not unconditioned (we are expected to respond).

However the ‘faith of Christ’ that saves us is his faithfulness, not our faith in God. If it were our faith we would save ourselves by our actions or works.
Click to expand...
I think it’s both/and. God wants justice to be ours, not merely imputed as some Protestant theology teaches. And the beginning of that justice, as Trent teaches, is faith. And faith, as a theological virtue, is a gift of grace, unattainable without God’s giving it-and yet, as with any gift, that grace is resistible; we can refuse and reject it.
 
PaulfromIowa #9

The CCC is heavy going. I am not sure I grasp all the distinctions.

Emphasis seems to be not on God, the Father, nor on Jesus, the Son, but on the Holy Spirit, the Sanctifier.

One know there is only one God, and even though the Son (alone) is man, yet all the persons are fully distinct.

[PaulfromTarsus does not talk about the grace of Jesus as much as the grace of God.

Grace Christ:
2 Cor. 13:13, Gal. 1:6, Phil. 4:23, 2 Tim. 2:1, Phlm. 1:25

Grace God
Rom. 5:15
6:17
7:25
1 Cor. 1:4
3:10
15:10
2 Cor. 1:12
6:1
8:1
16
9:14
15
Gal. 2:21
Eph. 3:2
7
Col. 1:6
2 Thess. 1:12
1 Tim. 1:2
2 Tim. 1:2
3
Tit. 1:4
2:11]
 
NoelFitz said:
Thanks for all the brilliant helpful replies.
**
Bookcat #4 & #5**

Agreement seems to be emerging.

It seems generally agreed that we are saved/justified/made righteous by Jesus.
We are saved by faith not by works.
We seem to agree with John Barclay, as previously stated, that grace is unconditional (received incongruously by God’s gratuitous gift) but it is not unconditioned (we are expected to respond).

However the ‘faith of Christ’ that saves us is his faithfulness, not our faith in God. If it were our faith we would save ourselves by our actions or works.
Click to expand...
Jesus saved us by his death and resurrection…

And it is* our* faith. Yet that faith is given us by God. Gift. One we cooperate with of course - in our “I” by his grace.

Our Faith *in *Christ and Baptism into him.

Not the “faith* of* Christ”. Jesus can be said not to have had “faith” like us.

(initial justification of the person)
 
“It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28).”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html

See the full context here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14549733&postcount=5
 
“At this point I would like to sketch a path intended to help us understand more profoundly not only the content of the faith, but also the act by which we choose to entrust ourselves fully to God, in complete freedom. In fact, there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

“In the mystery of his death and resurrection, God has revealed in its fullness the Love that saves and calls us to conversion of life through the forgiveness of sins (cf. Acts 5:31). For Saint Paul, this Love ushers us into a new life: “We were buried … with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4). Through faith, this new life shapes the whole of human existence according to the radical new reality of the resurrection.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20111011_porta-fidei.html
 
Mammoths #11
I appreciate very much all your replies.
I am going through them slowly. It is taking me a lot of time, as your content is so profound, and you may be using terms in a way slightly different from my understanding. I am enjoying your solid posts, and feel we differ little in beliefs.
You understanding of ‘sacrament’ may not agree with my rather confused understanding.
 
Mammoths #12
You wrote “it seems a bit speculative to say what God could have done”.
I fully agree. I thought that is a point I made. But God is almighty, so he could do things differently from the way he did them.

Can we believe all are saved? I cannot see how God could create a person who will suffer in hell for all eternity.
As a Catholic as far as I can go is to acknowledge that it is not contrary to Catholicism to believe all may be saved. This idea was advocated by Hans Urs von Balthasar. But is is not within Catholicism to claim all are saved.
 
Mammoths
#13
No comment

#14
Barclay claims grace is a gift given to us first (priority) and without our merit (incongruous). You and I would (I think) agree with this, which is in agreement with traditional Catholic ideas of prevenient grace and grace being a free gratuitous gift of God.

We love because he first loved us. (1 Jn. 4:19 NAB)
 
Although he was not Catholic, Dietrich Boenhoeffer warned against what he called cheap grace–That is taking the gift of the Cross lightly.

Yes, we are saved by grace, and we are saved by faith.
Throughout the gospel, when Jesus heals somebody, He often states, “Your faith has saved you.” The person has responded to their faith in God as manifested in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

The Gospel message was “Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.” Our Lord further states, “It is not the one who cries,'Lord,Lord who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but the one who does the Will of the Father.”

As Catholics, we recognize the saving power of the Cross. We were indeed Saved 2000 years ago and we continue to be saved each and every time the Mass is celebrated anywhere on the earth until the end of time.

The Saving Act of the Cross requires a response on our part. We are not called to remain in our sins. We are called to a continued conversion. That conversion is made possible through Baptism and the working of the Holy Spirit within us. The Church was born at Pentecost, and we are reminded by St. Paul that each of us is the temple of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Spirit gave the Apostles the courage and zeal they needed to spread the gospel worldwide. That same Spirit dwells within each Christian, but just as a child must listen to his/her parent, we respond in faithful obedience to the Father who created us.
“If you would be my disciple, pick up your cross and follow after me.”
We are not always successful in following God’s will. That is where the grace of the Sacraments strengthens us along the journey that each of us follows through life.

“I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from me you can do nothing. With God all things are possible.”
 
NoelFitz said:
Mammoths #12
You wrote “it seems a bit speculative to say what God could have done”.
I fully agree. I thought that is a point I made. But God is almighty, so he could do things differently from the way he did them.

Can we believe all are saved? I cannot see how God could create a person who will suffer in hell for all eternity.
As a Catholic as far as I can go is to acknowledge that it is not contrary to Catholicism to believe all may be saved. This idea was advocated by Hans Urs von Balthasar. But is is not within Catholicism to claim all are saved.
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Anyone who will may be saved. We are not told all will–although the invitation is to all.

I am not sure this is Catholic but, I think of choice as being necessary for love. Without choice we could not fulfill the greatest commandment–to love God entirely. Thus in creating mankind with the capacity for rebellion, God makes himself vulnerable to man for the prize of being loved by man. Jesus told us hell was created for the devil and his angels–not for man. Hell is God’s last option for those who refuse Him. It is not a careless or impulsive judgement on his part but a just one.
 
Mammoths said:
Anyone who will may be saved. We are not told all will–although the invitation is to all.

I am not sure this is Catholic but, I think of choice as being necessary for love. Without choice we could not fulfill the greatest commandment–to love God entirely. Thus in creating mankind with the capacity for rebellion, God makes himself vulnerable to man for the prize of being loved by man. Jesus told us hell was created for the devil and his angels–not for man. Hell is God’s last option for those who refuse Him. It is not a careless or impulsive judgement on his part but a just one.
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That’s very Catholic. In Catholicism the will of man is always involved in some capacity. We cannot move ourselves to justice or obedience of God; we cannot say ‘yes’ without His help, and yet we can still always say ‘no’.
 
Roseeurekacross #15
Is Jesus our Saviour?
Do you imply we are saved by our own acceptance or by the faithfulness of Jesus and/or by keeping commandments and going to mass? Are these works we do?
 
pacloc #16

I am not sure I agree fully with what you claim. For example you wrote “There is no punishment from God that does not have behind it the greatest love one could imagine.”
How can suffering excruciating pains for all eternity without any hope of release show love?
 
NoelFitz said:
pacloc #16

I am not sure I agree fully with what you claim. For example you wrote “There is no punishment from God that does not have behind it the greatest love one could imagine.”
How can suffering excruciating pains for all eternity without any hope of release show love?
Click to expand...
I notice from this post and a previous one, that you have a hard time dealing with punishment of eternal hell. It is definitely one of the hardest realities to make sense of, but there are lots of reasons for it that can help you deal with its severity.

But to start, in my previous post, I was talking about punishments before the great judgment. But I suppose even the result of the great judgment can be seen as an act of great love. That love does not necessarily mean that the person who suffers is the target of the Love, but they usually are. Would you say that in theory, parents and police, are acting out of love or justice? I know in reality, both fail and end up doing things without love, but in theory their actions are very loving to both the disobedient child and criminal, because their punishment can help bring them around to a life of virtue, and to the rest of the family or community because they do not have to fear the danger from the criminal and can be deterred from entering into a sinful life themselves because they see the consequences, both self-inflicted and from authority.

All I was alluding to was that in God’s providence, He has helped to lay out a life with the most long-term benefit for each of us, including both trials and comforts. No matter how they appear now, the end result potentially could be that we have grown in perfection in the way in which God intends.

Now as far as Hell goes, think of how many people have become inheritors of the Kingdom of God because of the initial fear of suffering for eternity. If even one person were to become one with God because of this reality, it would be worth it. It is not as if the ones that will be in Hell did not have the same level opportunity to inherit the kingdom of God. Even if it appears that some don’t have the same opportunity, we must trust that God will make up the rest after they die similar to how Christ went to the dead after His Crucifixion and taught them what they were missing. Also there is the possibility that the extreme punishment in Hell is compared to the limitless delight of Heaven, and really is not what we imagine when we see graphic images of hell, these visions of hell could be symbolic of the eternal darkness that could have been a blissful life with God and the Saints. It is very important to remember that God is not partial, and that if even one man makes it into the Kingdom of God, all were capable and are therefore responsible for their own actions. It is more like they have chosen to stay in darkness, not really being cast into it.
 
Bookcat said:
“It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28).”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html

See the full context here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14549733&postcount=5
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And what this means, IMO, different from a common Protestant position, is that man is made just only by virtue of communion with God, ‘Apart from Whom he can do nothing’ (John 15:5), a relationship which is established or realized by faith, a relationship which is faith.

This justice, IOW, is not merely declared or imputed, but placed or made real in us as per Jer 31:33, as God comes to indwell and transform us into His image. It constitutes the only righteous that man was made to have, that which God provided for us in the beginning, rather than man’s so-called righteousness, whatever we have as a result of autonomy from Him.
 
Bookcat said:
Pope Benedict XVI on the subjects of Faith and Works in St. Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
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I love this:
"This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith."

Faith/justification isn’t a sort of mechanical transaction whereby we’re declared just-and then simply intellectually believe ourselves to be justified, but rather it’s about a real change. And then love is the measure of that justice in the end, the defining mark of that change, that this communion is occurring.
 
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