By what/who are we saved?
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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fhansen,
I am loathe t disagree with you.
You wrote:
To sum it up another way, to be saved means to come to the knowledge of God, and from there is a matter of what we do with that knowledge, that truth.
I am not fully happy with this as love is not considered.
We are here to know, love and serve God. We cannot love what we do not know. But I would think that love should play a part in our salvation. We need to consider intellect and will.
I am loathe t disagree with you.
You wrote:
To sum it up another way, to be saved means to come to the knowledge of God, and from there is a matter of what we do with that knowledge, that truth.
I am not fully happy with this as love is not considered.
We are here to know, love and serve God. We cannot love what we do not know. But I would think that love should play a part in our salvation. We need to consider intellect and will.
fhansem #22
previously I wrote I am loathe to disagree with you. In most things I almost fully agree with you.
Traditionally Catholics considered the ‘both/and’ of faith and works. In most things Catholics seem ‘both/and’ people, while Protestants are ‘either/or’.
But I believe we are saved by faith, and by this I tend to believe the fath/faithfulness of Jesus, so in translations of Paul the NET bible seems to get this.
The imputed/infused argument goes back, but now I think most Christians believe we are changed/transformed by grace.
I think we need good works to remain in the state of grace, but to get grace good works are not enough. We need grace to be saved, and this is a gratuitous unearned gift.
previously I wrote I am loathe to disagree with you. In most things I almost fully agree with you.
Traditionally Catholics considered the ‘both/and’ of faith and works. In most things Catholics seem ‘both/and’ people, while Protestants are ‘either/or’.
But I believe we are saved by faith, and by this I tend to believe the fath/faithfulness of Jesus, so in translations of Paul the NET bible seems to get this.
The imputed/infused argument goes back, but now I think most Christians believe we are changed/transformed by grace.
I think we need good works to remain in the state of grace, but to get grace good works are not enough. We need grace to be saved, and this is a gratuitous unearned gift.
D
DebChris
Guest
We love because God first loved us.We respond to love by love.
St. John says, “How can you love the God you have not seen if you do not love the brother you have seen?”
It comes back to faith/grace. Our obedience to God comes not mere servitude, as a slave to a master, but as a love response…Obedience to the will of the Father, not merely calling ‘Lord, Lord,’ comes from a recognition of the gift received. We are part of the Body of Christ, part of the Family.
“You have faith with works. I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”
Scripture often uses the marriage covenant to convey God’s love for His people. When couples love one another, they spend time with each other, and continue to grow in that love. Menial daily tasks become tokens and acts of love. Commitment even during difficulties remains even if it is not always felt.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Jesus saved us by his death and resurrection…
And it is* our* faith. Yet that faith is given us by God. Gift. One we cooperate with of course - in our “I” by his grace.
Our Faith *in *Christ and Baptism into him. (initial justification).
Not the “faith* of* Christ”. Jesus can be said not to have had “faith” like us but rather “sees”.
He is the witness who has seen the Father…who knows him…who reveals him whom he knows…he is the witness we have Faith in!
(unfortunately some of our Protestant brothers go off in the wrong direction here).
And it is* our* faith. Yet that faith is given us by God. Gift. One we cooperate with of course - in our “I” by his grace.
Our Faith *in *Christ and Baptism into him. (initial justification).
Not the “faith* of* Christ”. Jesus can be said not to have had “faith” like us but rather “sees”.
He is the witness who has seen the Father…who knows him…who reveals him whom he knows…he is the witness we have Faith in!
(unfortunately some of our Protestant brothers go off in the wrong direction here).
Bookca #23
We are saved by the life, passion, dearth and resurrection of Jesus.
If we are saved by our faith, we save ourselves. I thought we agreed we are saved by Jesus, not by our work in accepting grace.
Jesus is God, hence everything he has is different from what we have. Fundamentally Catholics and Protestants diffet in what is meant by faith; for us it is one of the theological virtues. For Protestants it is trust, acceptance.
B
Bookcat
Guest
No.
We do not enter into salvation by our works - we do not enter by ourselves into that state of initial justification thus “saving ourselves”.
Rather it is by Faith.
Our faith in Jesus Christ and the gift of baptism. Faith is a gift. All is grace. We of course *by grace engage our “I” - but it is all by gift nothing is earned by works of the law or other works.
Tis by Faith.
Our faith in Christ.
Yes Jesus saved us by his death and resurrection…
And it is* our* faith. Yet that faith is given us by God. Gift. One we cooperate with of course - in our “I” by his grace.
Our Faith *in *Christ and Baptism into him. (initial justification).
Not the “faith* of* Christ”. Jesus can be said* not *to have had “faith” like us but rather “sees”.
He is the witness who has seen the Father…who knows him…who reveals him whom he knows…he is the witness we have Faith in!
(unfortunately some of our Protestant brothers go off in the wrong direction here).
B
Bookcat
Guest
“It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28).”
~ Pope Benedict XVI
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html
See the full context here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14549733&postcount=5
Not about some idea of a Faith *of Christ - he sees! *Faith does not see (Heb 11.1).
It is we who have Faith in him. And yes that Faith is a gift. Grace. Yes it involves us - our yes - but it is indeed a gift.
~ Pope Benedict XVI
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html
See the full context here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14549733&postcount=5
Not about some idea of a Faith *of Christ - he sees! *Faith does not see (Heb 11.1).
It is we who have Faith in him. And yes that Faith is a gift. Grace. Yes it involves us - our yes - but it is indeed a gift.
Bookcat #26
I read here “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift,”
That sums up the whole thing.
It is amazing that after all the effort in a few short words of the Holy Spirit, St Paul, B XVI, Bookcat the issue is resolved fully and clearly.
Again Bookcat, thanks!.
I read here “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift,”
That sums up the whole thing.
It is amazing that after all the effort in a few short words of the Holy Spirit, St Paul, B XVI, Bookcat the issue is resolved fully and clearly.
Again Bookcat, thanks!.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Bonus 
"… there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.
The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14).""
~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20111011_porta-fidei.html
"… there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.
The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14).""
~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei
w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20111011_porta-fidei.html
F
fhansen
Guest
Maybe I was being a bit too concise in echoing St John the Apostle but I’m certain he meant to agree with you by his statement as well. Faith is to know and come into relationship with God, to commune with Him. The more we know God the more we love Him, and obedience flows naturally from that love. That should be the product of faith, ultimately the purpose of grace, but isn’t necessarily so.
Anyway, the best summary IMO would be from St John of the Cross : “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” And this is still what John the Apostle was getting at in John 17:3 I’m sure. Love is the highest form of man’s justice. As Augustine put it, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing"
D
DebChris
Guest
“Whatever you do for the least of my brothers, you do for me?”
How are we judged on the Last Day? By our works.
The works that we do are a response of Faith to the Grace that we have received.
“How can I love the God I have not seen if I hate the brother that I have seen?”
Throughout His ministry, Jesus first forgave, then healed the physical body.
He constantly reminded followers and those healed that faith was the saving factor.
He also called everybody to forgiveness and reconciliation.
“If when you go the altar to present your gift, you remember that your brother has a grievance against you, go and be reconciled and then return.”
We are called to forgive as the Father has forgiven us.
No, our works do not save us. Faith underlies our works, and makes them possible.
F
fhansen
Guest
Well, yes, but it’s a bit more than faith. Faith is the beginning-the root and foundation of our justification according to Church teachings, not the* end* of it. So the council of Trent goes on to say: “For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body.”
The catechism actually quotes St John of the Cross in this paragraph addressing the final judgement:
**1022 "Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."**
So the works done for “the least of these” in Matt 25-31-46 are actually reflections of the virtue of love, as they are its fruits.
“The only thing that counts is faith working through love” Gal 5:6
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
We are saved by the trinity?
D
DebChris
Guest
If we could save ourselves, we would not need God.
There would have been no need for the cross.
It is also why Dietrich Boenhoeffer warns in his book, The Cost of Discipleship against what he calls cheap grace.
It is not enough to cry, ‘Lord, Lord’ to enter the kingdom of heaven.
The gift of salvation is free, but calls for all that we have to give.
When we open our hearts to the gift, we are given the Holy Spirit to strengthen us. We are never left to our own devices.
F
fhansen
Guest
And yet our response to grace-or lack of it-will determine our eternal destiny. We work out our salvation with He who works in us (Phil 2:12-13), which is why salvation isn’t universal. As the Church teaches, neither faith nor works merit the grace of justification. And yet, again, the Church teaches:
"At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."
That’s what faith should lead to. God is after* change in us; He doesn’t suddenly decide to ignore *justice, but rather to restore it to His wayward creation. So our righteousness, defined by love, obtained by our cooperation with grace, is the measure of our justice.
DebChris #30,
Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I like hearing abut Bonhoeffer, as he is so admired.
Your post leaves me a bit confused. At mass last Sunday the blind man’s faith only led him to see Jesus as a prophet.
Your post also left be confused (my usual state). Are we saved by the cross, by faith, by daily mass, by baptism or by the Holy Spirit?
Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I like hearing abut Bonhoeffer, as he is so admired.
Your post leaves me a bit confused. At mass last Sunday the blind man’s faith only led him to see Jesus as a prophet.
Your post also left be confused (my usual state). Are we saved by the cross, by faith, by daily mass, by baptism or by the Holy Spirit?
H
Herculees
Guest
We are saved as a result of His birth, life, passion, death and resurrection.
PS: Thank you Mary for agreeing to give birth to my Lord, and God.
PS: Thank you Mary for agreeing to give birth to my Lord, and God.
Mammoths #31
Again I have a problem. I read somewhere that love is not love unless it is free. With us love is a command, an order. We are told to love God. In the Shema we read
Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Deut. 6:5 NAB)
Jesus repeated this command.
We are told to obey or go to hell.
There is also another problem about the possibility of loving when status is different.
So we are not invited to love, we are ordered.
That is the way God chose. We obey, or else.
Again I have a problem. I read somewhere that love is not love unless it is free. With us love is a command, an order. We are told to love God. In the Shema we read
Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength. (Deut. 6:5 NAB)
Jesus repeated this command.
We are told to obey or go to hell.
There is also another problem about the possibility of loving when status is different.
So we are not invited to love, we are ordered.
That is the way God chose. We obey, or else.
- Status