Bye-bye contemporary choirs!

[Freshman88]

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/wpope120.xml

Pope to purge the Vatican of modern music

By Malcolm Moore in Rome
Last Updated: 2:19am GMT 20/11/2007

The Pope is considering a dramatic overhaul of the Vatican in order to force a return to traditional sacred music.

After reintroducing the Latin Tridentine Mass, the Pope wants to widen the use of Gregorian chant and baroque sacred music.

In an address to the bishops and priests of St Peter’s Basilica, he said that there needed to be “continuity with tradition” in their prayers and music.

He referred pointedly to “the time of St Gregory the Great”, the pope who gave his name to Gregorian chant.

Gregorian chant has been reinstituted as the primary form of singing by the new choir director of St Peter’s, Father Pierre Paul.

---

Hurrah!
Could it be that there is something objectively better in Gregorian chant? Perhaps this isn’t about mere “taste” anymore.

Pray for His Holiness!

 

[pnewton]

This is two times in two days some one has posted an article from the this website that was a total misrepresentation. The Pope did not say “Bye-bye to contemporary choirs”. He did not “purge the Vatican.” He is considering an overhaul of the Music at the Vatican. If you read down, part of the reason for changes was lack of quality and singing out of tune.

I looked up the other article and it was by this Damian Thompon character also. I would recommend avoiding his “journalism” and try and find some one who is a better reporter and less of a propagandist.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Despite the questionable accuracy of the article, I think that this is great news. I love Gregorian Chant and I believe that greater use can only be a good thing. The reasons for this “overhaul” do not matter; what matters is the fact that the Church will begin reviving her sacred liturgical traditions.

God Bless Pope Benedict XVI. May he have a long and fruitful Papacy. He is quickly becoming my favourite Pope!

 

[Freshman88]

This is two times in two days some one has posted an article from the this website that was a total misrepresentation. The Pope did not say “Bye-bye to contemporary choirs”. He did not “purge the Vatican.” He is considering an overhaul of the Music at the Vatican. If you read down, part of the reason for changes was lack of quality and singing out of tune.

I looked up the other article and it was by this Damian Thompon character also. I would recommend avoiding his “journalism” and try and find some one who is a better reporter and less of a propagandist.

yeah… part of the reason. If that were the main reason, he would just get a professional choir that would sing contemporary music. Instead, he is considering going to Gregorian. A wonderful move.

Pray the he does it!

I feel robbed that after being raised Catholic my whole life, it is only within the last year that I found out Gregorian chant even existed. We are being robbed of a great tradition. The Orthodox wouldn’t stand for it, and neither will I.

Come home Gregorian!

 

[ABiii]

Being a cantor and musician, I love both traditional and contemporary Christian music.

There are times when one is more appealing to the other. I would rather listen to Christian rock than regular rock music.

When some contemporary Christian ballads get sung during mass, I feel at home and I feel the link between my everyday life and my relationship with Christ.

I am sorry if some people hate this type of music, but there is a market for this music, more notably the younger generation.

 

[SemperFidelis]

I am sorry if some people hate this type of music, but there is a market for this music, more notably the younger generation.

Actually, many of the younger generation (myself included) seem to be interested in the Traditional Latin Mass. You won’t find any of that music at a TLM. I love Sinatra, but that doesn’t have a place at Mass, and neither does music that sounds like Hendrix (whom I also listen to). Christian Rock is a generalized type of Christian music, that doesn’t at all cater to Catholics, but to Christians in general. Why is it so hard to get actual Catholic music at a Catholic Mass? Bring back Gregorian Chant.

 

[Freshman88]

Actually, many of the younger generation (myself included) seem to be interested in the Traditional Latin Mass. You won’t find any of that music at a TLM. I love Sinatra, but that doesn’t have a place at Mass, and neither does music that sounds like Hendrix (whom I also listen to).

I agree!

All my friends DESPISE Christian rock. I am 19yrs old. I’ve never understood why the older generation insists that we like that stuff.

In fact I began to drift away from Catholicism because of those so called “teen masses”. I saw no sanctity in it. I think many people my age also see the same. If we were true to tradition, I honestly believe that alot more of our youth would stay in the Church. - I’m speaking from experience. Looking at my own brothers - their faith has been reignited by traditional Catholicism, while just like me, Christian rock makes them sick - it seems to be totally void of any kind of form of sanctity or reverence.

I just wished that parishes would offer traditional Catholicism… I wonder how many kids would have their hearts melt at the sight of the TLM - just like my own did.

Is it just me - or do “teen” version of the faith seem anything but youthful - they seem childish.

I don’t mean to be offensive, but I can’t understand why this forced upon my generation. We are thirsting for reverence and orthodoxy!

 

[ABiii]

Wow… did you like the past World Youth Day events?

Sometimes, when people take this too personally, I forget that I am talking to Christians.

I was not saying anything absolute about the topic, but did it merit not respecting other peoples perspectives?
Have I become an infidel because I am different from you, your preferences or your cultural background?

Do you know that in Africa and in Central America, they play rythmic music during the celebration of the eucharist?
As a matter of fact, Africans dance during mass, and some hymns in Central America sound like the lambada ryhtmically.

Just because people are different from you does not mean that you are right, or does it give you the
right to criticize them. Also, just because you are a majority does not mean you are right.
Just because it seems that you follow the culture and rules of your area does not mean you are right.

The pharissees crucified Jesus because they were so obsessed with their self-righteousness
and the rules they lived by. They scorned him when he healed and worked on a sabbath,
and mocked him when he ate with uncouth and uneducated sinners.

I find that after visiting the Traditional Catholicism forum of this site, this is the area with
the least compassion and love for others. It is either the Traditional way or no way.

After a few messages from other people in this area of the site, I actually find myself considering
how sad I am to belong to a compassionless church. If this is the identity of Traditional Catholicism,
I would rather not seek it.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

Being a cantor and musician, I love both traditional and contemporary Christian music.

There are times when one is more appealing to the other. I would rather listen to Christian rock than regular rock music.

When some contemporary Christian ballads get sung during mass, I feel at home and I feel the link between my everyday life and my relationship with Christ.

I am sorry if some people hate this type of music, but there is a market for this music, more notably the younger generation.

I am part of a charasmatic Catholic young adult ministry and I do enjoy the “Christian Rock” which we term Praise & Worship; but I am also a Cathecist who enjoys the quiet solemness of the Mass and Adoration. I love Latin Mass!

Anyway, there is a time and place for everything so I agree that the traditional hymns (I love the “Lord of the Dance” and “Let There Be Peace on Earth”) we use to sing often in Mass when I was young should return and leave the Christian rock (I love “Free to Dance” and “I Wanna Be with You”) to be enjoyed during praise & worship services where we can clap our hands and jump for joy for the Lord.

 

[Oshiego_Rod]

Do you know that in Africa and in Central America, they play rythmic music during the celebration of the eucharist?
As a matter of fact, Africans dance during mass, and some hymns in Central America sound like the lambada ryhtmically.

Good point actually… someone told me that they love the Catholic Church because it respects the traditions of the culture while still remaining true to its doctrines and traditions. After all the word Catholic does mean Universal.

 

[Freshman88]

Wow… did you like the past World Youth Day events?

Sometimes, when people take this too personally, I forget that I am talking to Christians.

I was not saying anything absolute about the topic, but did it merit not respecting other peoples perspectives?
Have I become an infidel because I am different from you, your preferences or your cultural background?

Do you know that in Africa and in Central America, they play rythmic music during the celebration of the eucharist?
As a matter of fact, Africans dance during mass, and some hymns in Central America sound like the lambada ryhtmically.

Just because people are different from you does not mean that you are right, or does it give you the
right to criticize them. Also, just because you are a majority does not mean you are right.
Just because it seems that you follow the culture and rules of your area does not mean you are right.

The pharissees crucified Jesus because they were so obsessed with their self-righteousness
and the rules they lived by. They scorned him when he healed and worked on a sabbath,
and mocked him when he ate with uncouth and uneducated sinners.

I find that after visiting the Traditional Catholicism forum of this site, this is the area with
the least compassion and love for others. It is either the Traditional way or no way.

After a few messages from other people in this area of the site, I actually find myself considering
how sad I am to belong to a compassionless church. If this is the identity of Traditional Catholicism,
I would rather not seek it.

No i did not like the past world youth day events. I’ve been invited to go the the next Eucharistic congress, but I absoltutley despise charismatic Catholicism and fear that it will be rampent.

Now to address a lot of what you said.

First of all, I am NOT in the majority. There are no traditioanlist services in my hometown. There is one service offered in the city of my school, and I’m talking about Montreal! There are plenty of youth masses though. So your claim that I am the majority is baseless- I am sadly the minority.

Next - I am not judging individuals. I am horribe sinner. I am, however, judging certain liturgical innovations.

Heck, where did you all those self-righteous accussations come from? I don’t think im righteous at all! ha, thats funniest claim I have ever heard. I’m not by any means a model catholic.

And finally - the Roman rite is universal. There is no need for Africans to bang on a drum while the Eucharist is being consecrated. Latin is the universal language of the Church - Gregorian is part of the sacred tradition. I think we owe it to them to pass on this rich tradition.

It has nothing to do with being different. I grew up in a home that was half Polish and half Ukrainian, and was exposed to two vary different liturgical traditions. I have no problem with Eastern liturgy, and guess what, their tradition is different. Yet it is the same in that it seems to exhibit a form of sacredness that youth masses seem to void of.

You have claimed that I have been uncharitable. This is completely unfounded. I think everyone is deserving of the rich traditions of our ecclesiastical ancestors.

Dancing during the liturgy, I truly and honestly believe is an abomination. Guess what- every culture in the world has a form of dance - Africans aren’t the only people who dance.

Plus, Africa is a whole continent! Just who exactly are you talking about?

Look at the Coptics, their African - their liturgy is quite revrent and has a very rich tradition.

 

[Freshman88]

Good point actually… someone told me that they love the Catholic Church because it respects the traditions of the culture while still remaining true to its doctrines and traditions. After all the word Catholic does mean Universal.

Every culture is able to include the Roman rite.

The Roman Rite certainly is not slavic, yet the Poles, Czechs, Slovenians and Slovaks all embrace it. Tell me, are we being unfaithful to our culture by embracing this universal rite?

 

[SemperFidelis]

Wow… did you like the past World Youth Day events?

Sometimes, when people take this too personally, I forget that I am talking to Christians.

I was not saying anything absolute about the topic, but did it merit not respecting other peoples perspectives?
Have I become an infidel because I am different from you, your preferences or your cultural background?

Do you know that in Africa and in Central America, they play rythmic music during the celebration of the eucharist?
As a matter of fact, Africans dance during mass, and some hymns in Central America sound like the lambada ryhtmically.

Just because people are different from you does not mean that you are right, or does it give you the
right to criticize them. Also, just because you are a majority does not mean you are right.
Just because it seems that you follow the culture and rules of your area does not mean you are right.

The pharissees crucified Jesus because they were so obsessed with their self-righteousness
and the rules they lived by. They scorned him when he healed and worked on a sabbath,
and mocked him when he ate with uncouth and uneducated sinners.

I find that after visiting the Traditional Catholicism forum of this site, this is the area with
the least compassion and love for others. It is either the Traditional way or no way.

After a few messages from other people in this area of the site, I actually find myself considering
how sad I am to belong to a compassionless church. If this is the identity of Traditional Catholicism,
I would rather not seek it.

There are countless Popes who have written that the Mass should be offered with reverance and solemnity. A Mass that has an electric guitar and plays Christian Rock music or a Mass with liturgical dancing is hardly reverant and solemn. If you accuse me of not being compassionate to that style of music at Mass, then you must accuse several Popes as well. There are SSPX and FSSP missions in Africa, that are doing quite well without African dance and music. There are many Traditions that I very much respect: the various Eastern Liturgies, the Anglican Use parishes, etc. However all of these have one thing in common: there is reverance and solemnity at Mass. Novelities and innovations such as guitars or dancing hardly allows for a reverant Mass, which is the ultimate goal, and are hardly worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[bear06]

Being a cantor and musician, I love both traditional and contemporary Christian music.

There are times when one is more appealing to the other. I would rather listen to Christian rock than regular rock music.

When some contemporary Christian ballads get sung during mass, I feel at home and I feel the link between my everyday life and my relationship with Christ.

I am sorry if some people hate this type of music, but there is a market for this music, more notably the younger generation.

There’s nothing wrong with Christian rock (at least the stuff that’s not theologically incorrect). That said, it doesn’t lend itself to the sacred. When we think of choirs of angels, I doubt any of us think of them having Fenders. Think of it this way, if you went to a Hitchcock movie and it had background music for a Chaplin movie, it would kind of ruin it.

 

[pnewton]

Think of it this way, if you went to a Hitchcock movie and it had background music for a Chaplin movie, it would kind of ruin it.

Good point. Next time someone thinks the music doesn’t matter if the lyrics are okay, picture the consecration to the theme of Benny Hill.

 

[ABiii]

Yes, we do not think Fenders when we think reverence… but this is because of our background.

Reverence is something that is relative, based on your education and background.

A westerner cannot say that chopsticks are inferior to knife and fork, and that easterners are lesser people.
Equally an easterner cannot say that knives and forks are inferior to Chopsticks.
Both cannot judge someone who culturally eats with their hands.

If you come from a traditional Catholic background, reverence can mean to kneel.
If you come from a charismatic Catholic background, reverence can mean to lift up your hands as you pray.

Who is the ultimate judge that one is better than the other?

If you come from Ghana (Africa), the cultural interpretation of dancing does not imply the loss of reverence. Rather, it implies that God’s love is so vibrant in your life that it moves you to dance.

Equally in countries like Panama or Costa Rica, fast songs do not imply that they revere God less.

It is when people go to extremes that it causes issues. A modern Catholic should not judge someone who is traditionalist and vice versa. We can all agree that there is reverence that is due to the Mass… but we cannot dictate to others how this is to be done or judge them if they do so differently.

Historically speaking, old testament instruments were harps and lyres (string instruments), trumpets, gongs and drums. They had huge choirs and dancers in the time of David… and he danced in his pajamas. Pianos and organs came in later… but it’s all the same. It’s the heart of the people who worship that count.

Perhaps some find that modern mass lacks reverence, but please consider that maybe there is reverence hidden in there but not in the way that our background has accustomed us to recognize.

When St. Paul criticized St. Peter because he did not eat with the gentiles,it was because St. Peter basically judged the gentiles because they were different, both in lineage as well as culture/background. Sure the gentiles had their traditions, and these got infused into our faith today… in traditions such as Christmas on Dec 25, and using votive candles. The sacrament of Marriage is performed with variations depending on the culture, and even the fact that the bridesmaids wear the same color is a practice that is not based on Christian belief.

What I ask is that you see past your criterion and see the possibility that maybe this other means gives as much reverence.

I did not mean any disrespect, but please be open… and that is the compassion that I ask.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Actually, other press releases on CA in other parts of the form say that worldwide not much will change. All types will be allowed and encouraged. If anything changes it will be locally in Rome for the duration of this Papacy and not much else.

 

[Freshman88]

I am really not convinced. When I’m happy, I dance too. Heck, my team scores a touchdown, I’m up and about dancing like a fool and it is out of happiness too.

I can also be emotionally moved during the mass, I do not get up and start dancing. There is a reason for this, and it is NOT culture. Our culture sees dance as a form of expression too, but you do not dance during mass… here’s why.

The mass is not a synthesis of culture. It is not a merely another form or expression. It is an ancient and venerable tradition handed down to us. It is suppouse to be something out of the ordinary. You aren’t suppose to be familiar with it. It should be an hour of life that stands out of the ordinary - and for good reason - something SACRED, something from beyond this world has just taken place.

So when you start mixing in everyday life, you lose that sense of special. The mass becomes ordinary.

Look at the TLM for instance, when do I genuflect outside of a Church… never
When do I hear Latin outside of mass… never
When do I hear Chant outside of mass… never
When do I smell incense outside of mass… never
When do I see golden vestments outside of mass … never

When am I offered the body of Christ outside of mass… never.

There is a reason for this. Its all to remind us that something out of the ordinary is happening. I completely resent the arguement that cultures should be brought into the mass. It will only do them a diservice by making the mass familar.

Heck, look to tradition. When missionaries went to the various tribes of Europe, they didn’t recreate the mass. They kept the mass intact! They did it for good reason, these saints where chauvinists, they were great and holy missionaries. When the people of Rus were evangelized, they were given their own sacred language, but they did not create a new mass - the Divine liturgy stayed very similar.

This is a problem I have. I am not convinced that liturgy is just a matter of taste - I truly believe that TLM and the Divine Liturgy, are objectively superior. Heck if the NO is done properly, I may argue that is objectively superior. (I still attend the NO, btw, and think it is a holy mass - when done properly … and preferably in latin)

I am not being a chauvinist - it isnt even about culture .

I have not been convinced otherwise, and until I am, I’ll continue to argue this.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I believe these liturgies are objectively superior as well. I would add only that it isn’t so much that the liturgy is out of the ordinary. It is that everything else is askew. God has brought His kingdom to earth and for the most part people would rather live in darkness.

CDL

 

[ChemicalBean]

The mass is not a synthesis of culture. It is not a merely another form or expression. It is an ancient and venerable tradition handed down to us. It is suppouse to be something out of the ordinary. You aren’t suppose to be familiar with it. It should be an hour of life that stands out of the ordinary - and for good reason - something SACRED, something from beyond this world has just taken place.

So when you start mixing in everyday life, you lose that sense of special. The mass becomes ordinary.

Look at the TLM for instance, when do I genuflect outside of a Church… never
When do I hear Latin outside of mass… never
When do I hear Chant outside of mass… never
When do I smell incense outside of mass… never
When do I see golden vestments outside of mass … never

When am I offered the body of Christ outside of mass… never.

There is a reason for this. Its all to remind us that something out of the ordinary is happening. I completely resent the arguement that cultures should be brought into the mass. It will only do them a diservice by making the mass familar.

Well if you are set in not being “convinced otherwise”, no argument can open your mind. But I happen to like contemporary music as much as I like chant, because I think both, if well done, can fulfill the function of liturgical music and have a proper place in Mass. I hope you will give it another thought.

Part of the great wisdom of the Church is that the sacred is not separate from the ordinary. We uncover the sacred in the ordinary. The Mass should be very familiar. Liturgy is our “public work”. If it is unfamiliar, how do we know that we are actually doing our job of praising God and allowing ourselves to be transformed?

When we baptize and confirm, we don’t use special fairy dust that an angel lowered down to us from a rope. We use plain, ordinary, clean water that we have blessed for this purpose. We then finish the job with plain, ordinary, high-quality olive oil that has been consecrated for this purpose.

When we celebrate the Eucharist, we use plain (wheat and water only) bread and pure grape wine. Very ordinary basics for 1st-century peoples. Bread is still an everyday staple for most of us.

(I’m glad that Jesus didn’t command the Church to cure blindness with mud!)

St. Benedict instructs his monks to treat all material objects as though they were the sacred vessels of the altar. Benedictines often bow before services to the tabernacle AND to each other to acknowledge the presence of Christ in their brother/sister monks.

No, one doesn’t genuflect outside of Church. But you probably do nod your head in passing someone, stand up when someone important enters the room, or bow in gratitude for applause after giving a performance. How do your gestures build up the kingdom of God?

No, you probably don’t hear Latin outside of Mass. It is no longer the common tongue nor the language of modern scholarship. But I suspect you use English every day. How does what you speak and listen to, in any language, build up the kingdom of God?

The Liturgy is an ancient, venerable tradition passed down to us - yes. But in as much as we are living stones, the liturgy we celebrate is a living tradition. Christ is offered up in the Eucharist as a living sacrifice. But the whole point of it is that we ourselves join in with Christ’s offering; we, our ordinary, not-yet-glorified selves; we, who glorify God through our diligent work as barbers, advertisers, and nuclear technicians; we, who give voice to the beauty of life through electric guitars and drums.

It is therefore, entirely fitting for our culture to use contemporary music in the service of Mass, so long as it is prayer and it offers up our very best.