"Byzantine bitterness" and relations with fellow Catholics

[Peter_J]

Dr. Anthony Dragani coined the term “Byzantine bitterness” (something I believe I’ve been guilty of at times) many years ago, in response to the question “Why does there seem to be so much hostility toward Latin Catholics by SOME Byzantines?” on the EWTN website (and later included it in the FAQ on his website).

Granted there are a few different directions we could go with this topic – for example, people may want to weigh in on whether or not they agree with Dr. Dragani concerning how common “Byzantine bitterness” his or what the reasons for it are. I don’t mind that but I’d especially like to focus on this question: How (if at all) has “Byzantine bitterness” affected our relationship with other Catholics? Note that I’m thinking here not only of Latin Catholics but also Maronites and other “Oriental” (non-Byzantine) Catholics.

 

[DrStachys]

Dr. Anthony Dragani coined the term “Byzantine bitterness” (something I believe I’ve been guilty of at times) many years ago, in response to the question “Why does there seem to be so much hostility toward Latin Catholics by SOME Byzantines?” on the EWTN website (and later included it in the FAQ on his website).

Granted there are a few different directions we could go with this topic – for example, people may want to weigh in on whether or not they agree with Dr. Dragani concerning how common “Byzantine bitterness” his or what the reasons for it are. I don’t mind that but I’d especially like to focus on this question: How (if at all) has “Byzantine bitterness” affected our relationship with other Catholics? Note that I’m thinking here not only of Latin Catholics but also Maronites and other “Oriental” (non-Byzantine) Catholics.

I think “Byzantine bitterness” will ultimately play a huge role in the future of the BCC – at least in the USA. The amount of legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust that is continually nursed by some is appalling. I think this is especially true in the Eastern and Midwestern sections of the country.

I think that’s perhaps the biggest practical difference between the BCCs and the Orthodox – the Orthodox don’t have Rome to blame for their shortcomings.

If it were my decision (and it’s not) I would move the Metropolia out of Pittsburgh and well away from these hard legacy feelings. I would likely move it to Los Angeles (amongst 5+ MILLION Catholics) and begin anew.

 

[Peter_J]

I think “Byzantine bitterness” will ultimately play a huge role in the future of the BCC – at least in the USA. The amount of legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust that is continually nursed by some is appalling. I think this is especially true in the Eastern and Midwestern sections of the country.

I think that’s perhaps the biggest practical difference between the BCCs and the Orthodox – the Orthodox don’t have Rome to blame for their shortcomings.

Hi DrStachys and thanks for those thoughts.

Let me add, in order to avoid possible misunderstandings (not that you’re misunderstanding, but readers might) that I wasn’t referring to the BCC specifically (unless you’re using that acronym in a way that I’m not used to). I meant Byzantine (i.e. Greek) Catholics inclusively – hence why I said “us” and not “them”.

If it were my decision (and it’s not) I would move the Metropolia out of Pittsburgh and well away from these hard legacy feelings. I would likely move it to Los Angeles (amongst 5+ MILLION Catholics) and begin anew.

Interesting idea. Seems a little “out there” to me … but then, as a Melkite I’m hardly the one to say.

 

[Domnall]

Before I post my commentary I’d like to make a few points that explain my bias/perspective

1. I am Roman Catholic
2. I have had interractions with Melkite, Ukrainian, and Maronite Catholics
3. I attend a Ukrainian church regularly and a few Melkite ones occasionally

It seems from my outside perspective that the “Byzantine bitterness” (I use scare quotes because I’m not 100% sure how I feel about the term) has split into two camps. On one side you have the bitterness fading and turning into Latin-influenced liturgical and spiritual life. Here, the unfairness of the Roman hierarchy towards the Eastern Churches caused some sort of submission. And, now that there have been generations in between, these practices seem to be the norm.

On the other hand, with the dawning of the internet era, we are able to research and learn much more at ease than we have in the past. So, I think amongst the laity a “neo- bitterness” is developing. Here, you have people from the group I mentioned above learning about what has happened in the past of their Church and they are now frustrated and angry for the damage to tradition it has caused.

I’m not sure, but it doesn’t seem to me that there are too many groups that have been bitter since Roman imposition that has still remained loyal, yet non-complacent since then.

If that made no sense, i’m sorry.

 

[MorEphrem]

Well to be honest, Byzantine history has been reactionary to all other Christian Churches: be they Western or Oriental (hence why, as has been visited many times, there is essentially one rite amongst all the Eastern, i.e. Greek, Churches).

Don’t get me wrong, some of it is not unfounded bitterness. There certainly have been unprovoked injustices done against the Eastern Churches (in mind I have an anecdote of Pius IX and the Melkite patriarch). However, the Byzantines are most prone to act on their bitterness for whatever reason, which then prompts people to dismiss the Eastern/Oriental Churches as anti-Latin.

 

[DrStachys]

Hi DrStachys and thanks for those thoughts.

Let me add, in order to avoid possible misunderstandings (not that you’re misunderstanding, but readers might) that I wasn’t referring to the BCC specifically (unless you’re using that acronym in a way that I’m not used to). I meant Byzantine (i.e. Greek) Catholics inclusively – hence why I said “us” and not “them”.

My apologies. I realize the Ruthenian Church uses the label “Byzantine” in the USA but I did mean all Byzantine recensions.

Interesting idea. Seems a little “out there” to me … but then, as a Melkite I’m hardly the one to say.

Yes, it’s very “out there” but the legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust on the East Coast and Midwest is appalling. It seems to be getting nursed along so it is not allowed to die.

I think demographics – “not enough Catholics” is also being used as a huge excuse so why not get out of the East Coast/Midwest and head to where HUGE numbers of Catholics reside.

 

[DrStachys]

Before I post my commentary I’d like to make a few points that explain my bias/perspective

1. I am Roman Catholic
2. I have had interractions with Melkite, Ukrainian, and Maronite Catholics
3. I attend a Ukrainian church regularly and a few Melkite ones occasionally

It seems from my outside perspective that the “Byzantine bitterness” (I use scare quotes because I’m not 100% sure how I feel about the term) has split into two camps. On one side you have the bitterness fading and turning into Latin-influenced liturgical and spiritual life. Here, the unfairness of the Roman hierarchy towards the Eastern Churches caused some sort of submission. And, now that there have been generations in between, these practices seem to be the norm.

On the other hand, with the dawning of the internet era, we are able to research and learn much more at ease than we have in the past. So, I think amongst the laity a “neo- bitterness” is developing. Here, you have people from the group I mentioned above learning about what has happened in the past of their Church and they are now frustrated and angry for the damage to tradition it has caused.

I’m not sure, but it doesn’t seem to me that there are too many groups that have been bitter since Roman imposition that has still remained loyal, yet non-complacent since then.

If that made no sense, i’m sorry.

Interesting you say that. Here in CA the actual “cradle Byzantines” from places like PA who actually lived through some of the difficult past do not fixate on it in my parish. They seem to be quietly relieved of the nationalism and the “latinizations” that were such a huge part of their churches growing up.

It’s they fundamentalist Catholics from the West who have never known nationalism and “latinizations” that harp about it the most, by far.

 

[DrStachys]

Before I post my commentary I’d like to make a few points that explain my bias/perspective

1. I am Roman Catholic
2. I have had interractions with Melkite, Ukrainian, and Maronite Catholics
3. I attend a Ukrainian church regularly and a few Melkite ones occasionally

It seems from my outside perspective that the “Byzantine bitterness” (I use scare quotes because I’m not 100% sure how I feel about the term) has split into two camps. On one side you have the bitterness fading and turning into Latin-influenced liturgical and spiritual life. Here, the unfairness of the Roman hierarchy towards the Eastern Churches caused some sort of submission. And, now that there have been generations in between, these practices seem to be the norm.

On the other hand, with the dawning of the internet era, we are able to research and learn much more at ease than we have in the past. So, I think amongst the laity a “neo- bitterness” is developing. Here, you have people from the group I mentioned above learning about what has happened in the past of their Church and they are now frustrated and angry for the damage to tradition it has caused.

I’m not sure, but it doesn’t seem to me that there are too many groups that have been bitter since Roman imposition that has still remained loyal, yet non-complacent since then.

If that made no sense, i’m sorry.

Interesting you say that. Here in CA the actual “cradle Byzantines” from places like PA who actually lived through some of the difficult past do not fixate on it in my parish. They seem to be quietly relieved of the nationalism and the “latinizations” that were such a huge part of their churches growing up.

It’s they fundamentalist Catholics from the West who have never known nationalism and “latinizations” that harp about it the most, by far.

 

[rciadan]

I think “Byzantine bitterness” will ultimately play a huge role in the future of the BCC – at least in the USA. The amount of legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust that is continually nursed by some is appalling. I think this is especially true in the Eastern and Midwestern sections of the country.

I think that’s perhaps the biggest practical difference between the BCCs and the Orthodox – the Orthodox don’t have Rome to blame for their shortcomings.

If it were my decision (and it’s not) I would move the Metropolia out of Pittsburgh and well away from these hard legacy feelings.** I would likely move it to Los Angeles **(amongst 5+ MILLION Catholics) and begin anew.

CA?! I can hardly think of a worse place! The *home *of the push for gay marriage, homosexual Masses, clown Masses, women in the priesthood, liturgical dancers, and other liberal/post modern nonsense? No thank you!

 

[Peter_J]

Hi all. I’m not spending as much time on the forum as I expected to this weekend, but may I say that I greatly appreciate your responses.

Well to be honest, Byzantine history has been reactionary to all other Christian Churches: be they Western or Oriental (hence why, as has been visited many times, there is essentially one rite amongst all the Eastern, i.e. Greek, Churches).

Don’t get me wrong, some of it is not unfounded bitterness.

I quite agree.

I would add that I suspect (though of course it’s hard to be sure) that all that has contributed to a “one size fits all” approach to Greek Catholicism.

 

[DrStachys]

CA?! I can hardly think of a worse place! The *home *of the push for gay marriage, homosexual Masses, clown Masses, women in the priesthood, liturgical dancers, and other liberal/post modern nonsense? No thank you!

Much of what you say is simply silly and reactionary. In any event are you actually suggesting the Byzantines would adopt the things you mentioned if they moved to CA?

The legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust nursed by the Byzantines in the East and Midwest is going to kill them unless something radical happens. They are eroding right now – as the faithful pass away there are no replacements to take their places.

I suspect the Eparchies of Parma and Passiac will be gone altogether within 50 years. Phoenix is even more vulnerable but it has one advantage. It’s not mired in the legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust. Pittsburgh will continue on in a reduced state due to inertia, but even it too is vulnerable.

 

[Peter_J]

In any event are you actually suggesting the Byzantines would adopt the things you mentioned if they moved to CA?

:tsktsk: Now now, he didn’t say that, just that it’s a place he wouldn’t want to be.

 

[rciadan]

:tsktsk: Now now, he didn’t say that, just that it’s a place he wouldn’t want to be.

It is not silly. Can you deny all the silliness that has come out of California? I think not. And if it is reactionary, it is because there almost every “new idea”, or “new beginning” that comes out of CA* needs to be reacted* too, lie one reacts to an infectious disease. The Eastern Churches do not need to" begin anew" or become “novel and hip”.

 

[DrStachys]

It is not silly. Can you deny all the silliness that has come out of California? I think not. And if it is reactionary, it is because there almost every “new idea”, or “new beginning” that comes out of CA* needs to be reacted* too, lie one reacts to an infectious disease. The Eastern Churches do not need to" begin anew" or become “novel and hip”.

It was a VERY silly comment. Actually I’ like to use other words but they are not allowed here.

Please don’t try to speak for me. I never suggested that ECs need to become “novel and hip.” NEVER did I say that! They just need to get away from all the legacy hatred, bitterness and mistrust. It’s clearly not being eradicated from parishes and eparchies – it’s being nursed. The eparchies will die largely because of that.

Physically moving is about the only solution I see. I am almost certain that phoenix, passiac and parma will be gone in 50 years and pittsburgh will be far smaller.

 

[babochka]

It is not silly. Can you deny all the silliness that has come out of California? I think not. And if it is reactionary, it is because there almost every “new idea”, or “new beginning” that comes out of CA* needs to be reacted* too, lie one reacts to an infectious disease. The Eastern Churches do not need to" begin anew" or become “novel and hip”.

First of all, the Archdiocse of Los Angeles is not representative of California. We have several dioceses in this state that are quite conservative.

As far as the Byzantine Catholic church goes, I think our “progressive” nature has only helped the process of recovering our own tradition. I was once told by one of my former pastors that priests who were too “Orthodox leaning” were exiled to California in the early days of the Eparchy of Van Nuys (and before). My own parish practiced infant communion in the early 1970s, and had since its founding (in 1968). I was very surprised to learn (as an adult) that this was not the practice in the majority of Byzantine Catholic churches in the U.S. until the 1990s. I just assumed that was the way all Byzantines did it. Perhaps it was the “progressive” nature of the Latin-rite priest at my parish school that caused him to give me Communion when I was in 1st grade, over the strong objection of the Sister who taught 1st grade. I’ve never seen some of the Latin practices that I’ve learned have been somewhat prevalent in churches back east: Stations of the Cross, Adoration, etc. Our parishes have Vespers and Pre-sanctified Liturgies, and several of them always have. Some even pray Matins or the 3rd hour before Sunday Liturgies. Our parishes are small and struggling, but growing and vibrant, and you certainly won’t see any of the “silliness” that you seem to believe is the only thing that can come out of our state.