L
Leo_The_Great
Guest
I think this post I made in another thread may be germain in terms of ecclesiology:
Whie I accept the papacy, I do not accept th way many Roman apologists try to defend it.
For example, the little truism: “A body with no head is dead, and a body with more than on e head is a moster.”
THis is excessively WRONG. First, the metaphor of a Body that Paul uses to describe the church is one where by MANY participate in the singular functions ANALAGOUS to different parts of the body.
SO those who journey are the feet, those who visit the imprisoned are the hands, those who pray in solitude are the heart, etc…
But when it comes to HEADSHIP all of a sudden the Roman apologist turns around and says “There can only be one supreme erthly head, the Pope, analagous to Christ the head.”
Well, what the heck have you just accepted up to this point?! An octopus?! How is that not a monstrosity?! How can you have many hands, many feet, many hearts, and only one head? This is some kind of Spiritual crustacean?
I think what needs to be made clear is that the Headship of Christ is shared by all the Bishops, with the Pope of Rome at the forefront. Instead of a downward pyramid, we should conceive of all the Bishops as a single unit guiding all the Faithful with the Pope sort of like the MC in a marching band.
Which is actually what the Catechism says. SO, just as thee is one Mystical body of Christ, we all participate in different aspects of that body in different ways. The same is true of ALL the bishops who participate as a single unit in the headshp of Christ, with our Holy Father leading the bandwagon.
And like I said before, for the Orthodox, even if we disagree about the divine institution of the Papacy, we should note that if the Whole body of the church recognizes the Pope as spokesman for the Church, it is from thence that his official actions derive their infallibility: The phronema of the Chuch has recognized her unversal hierarch, as a consequence, he cannot lead the whole church into error on a matter of faith or morals. Hence, he is infallible in his office, which is to be the oracle of the church, so to speak. As the whole church is the oracle of the Holy Spirit, so the Pope is the Oracle of the church, how about that?
“Who gives keys to their Mercedes to all their best friends? Common sense, folks… common sense.” (-TP2 My nemesis, lol.)
Uh, no. This is a lousy example that completely misses the point you are trying to make.
St. Augustine taught that Peter represents all the apostles as a whole, so that whaever christ spoke to Peter is implied to apply to the other apostles as well.
“And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer”
(John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
And this Church, symbolized in its generality, was personified in the Apostle Peter, on account of the primacy of his apostleship. For, as regards his proper personality, he was by nature one man, by grace one Christian, by still more abounding grace one, and yet also, the first apostle; but when it was said to him, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven,’ he represented the universal Church, which in this world is shaken by divers temptations, that come upon it like torrents of rain, floods and tempests, and falleth not, because it is founded upon a rock (petra), from which Peter received his name. For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, ‘On this rock will I build my Church,’ because Peter had said, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VII, St. Augustin, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5).
Whie I accept the papacy, I do not accept th way many Roman apologists try to defend it.
For example, the little truism: “A body with no head is dead, and a body with more than on e head is a moster.”
THis is excessively WRONG. First, the metaphor of a Body that Paul uses to describe the church is one where by MANY participate in the singular functions ANALAGOUS to different parts of the body.
SO those who journey are the feet, those who visit the imprisoned are the hands, those who pray in solitude are the heart, etc…
But when it comes to HEADSHIP all of a sudden the Roman apologist turns around and says “There can only be one supreme erthly head, the Pope, analagous to Christ the head.”
Well, what the heck have you just accepted up to this point?! An octopus?! How is that not a monstrosity?! How can you have many hands, many feet, many hearts, and only one head? This is some kind of Spiritual crustacean?
I think what needs to be made clear is that the Headship of Christ is shared by all the Bishops, with the Pope of Rome at the forefront. Instead of a downward pyramid, we should conceive of all the Bishops as a single unit guiding all the Faithful with the Pope sort of like the MC in a marching band.
Which is actually what the Catechism says. SO, just as thee is one Mystical body of Christ, we all participate in different aspects of that body in different ways. The same is true of ALL the bishops who participate as a single unit in the headshp of Christ, with our Holy Father leading the bandwagon.
And like I said before, for the Orthodox, even if we disagree about the divine institution of the Papacy, we should note that if the Whole body of the church recognizes the Pope as spokesman for the Church, it is from thence that his official actions derive their infallibility: The phronema of the Chuch has recognized her unversal hierarch, as a consequence, he cannot lead the whole church into error on a matter of faith or morals. Hence, he is infallible in his office, which is to be the oracle of the church, so to speak. As the whole church is the oracle of the Holy Spirit, so the Pope is the Oracle of the church, how about that?
“Who gives keys to their Mercedes to all their best friends? Common sense, folks… common sense.” (-TP2 My nemesis, lol.)
Uh, no. This is a lousy example that completely misses the point you are trying to make.
St. Augustine taught that Peter represents all the apostles as a whole, so that whaever christ spoke to Peter is implied to apply to the other apostles as well.
“And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer”
(John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
And this Church, symbolized in its generality, was personified in the Apostle Peter, on account of the primacy of his apostleship. For, as regards his proper personality, he was by nature one man, by grace one Christian, by still more abounding grace one, and yet also, the first apostle; but when it was said to him, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven,’ he represented the universal Church, which in this world is shaken by divers temptations, that come upon it like torrents of rain, floods and tempests, and falleth not, because it is founded upon a rock (petra), from which Peter received his name. For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, ‘On this rock will I build my Church,’ because Peter had said, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VII, St. Augustin, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5).
