Byzantine Catholicism vs. Latin Catholicism?

[Vico]

I grew up in the pre-Vatican II Latin church and have NO interest in returning to that time, either for the Mass or the counter-reformation attitudes that were so prevalent then. I believe, as many, many of us did at the time of Vat. II, that the Spirit was very alive and very active in bringing fresh air to the Latin church. Unfortunately, in my opinion and those of many of my contemporaries who had such hope, much of that “fresh air” has become stagnant once again by the action of walking-back some of the important and principle thought underlying the outward changes. I can understand the EF proponents’ claims that the OF is less reverent, more casual – but it is no longer meant to be a “me and God” action, it is a community Eucharist – all of us at Mass giving thanks for the salvific action of Jesus and sharing His Body. As one poster noted, the whole of society has changed in this same way.

I spent a month in France this spring touring cathedrals and attending (OF) liturgies whenever and wherever I could. I think the one element that makes our OF Masses in the US appear less reverent is the music – and I say this as one who participated in the “guitarization” of the Mass in the 70’s and 80’s. Unfortunately, when there is no money to pay professionals, you get volunteers who are not musically trained or sophisticated, nor are they liturgically knowledgeable – and our Masses have become the poorer for it (except, of course, in their essence).

I just wrote all that as this thread has become yet another rant about EF vs OF – but what I really came to this thread for was the explanation of the differences between the Byzantine Rite and the Roman Rite – and I have to say I loved the chart, even in its simplicity – I got it - I understand now – and I thank the poster for it. I don’t think you were wrong to portray the Latin Mass exactly as you did – it is the norm for Eucharistic celebrations in the US, which is what you were trying to do. Even in the more formal liturgies I attended in France, your portrayal is spot on.

Thanks!

(To the ranters: No need to argue against what I wrote above – I won’t engage.)

I see you are in California. I was raised there and experienced the pre-Vatican II Mass, as an altar boy. Many people had problem with the Latin I think, (we had to memorize it). There was less involvement (call-response), and in 1969 I was playing guitar at the folk mass. At another parish, I attended a rock Mass (there were electric guitars and a drum set near the altar area.) It was a truly strange era.

Later I began assisting at the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, after I decided not to be a priest (I was in pre-seminary). The chant is so reverent.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Hi

I’m a Latin Catholic and I think the flier in Post #2 is an oversimplification of the Latin Church. Therefore, I don’t think it accurately answers the OP’s question as regards the Latin Church. Any comments on the Byzantine side of the flier? I don’t know the Byzantine churches does that side of the flier accurately represent the Byzantine churches?

5Loaves in Post #14 I’m not sure what you mean by we’re actually 21 different Catholic Churches. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I thought there were 23 Catholic Churches in communion with the Holy See: 1 Latin, 22 Eastern of which 14 are Byzantine.

I’ve never been to an Extraordinary Form Mass so cannot comment on it. I’ve been to Ordinary Form Mass – when on holiday, weddings, funerals, etc. I normally only go to my Parish Church rather than going to different churches. However, I have seen the OF celebrated differently.

I don’t think it’s correct to say that the left-hand side of the flier accurately reflects the ‘average’ OF Mass. Mass is never ‘average’ anyway!

If anyone has ever been to a Mass celebrated in an Oratorian church they’d find the left-hand side of the flier is very inaccurate. Mass is celebrated ad orientem; the music is ‘heavenly’; the Mass is celebrated with great reverence; the priests do the red and say the black.

Matthew

 

[Ethnmad]

Had you heard of Aglipayan church? they have the same doctrines as Catholic

 

[VetA]

Hi

I’m a Latin Catholic and I think the flier in Post #2 is an oversimplification of the Latin Church. Therefore, I don’t think it accurately answers the OP’s question as regards the Latin Church. Any comments on the Byzantine side of the flier? I don’t know the Byzantine churches does that side of the flier accurately represent the Byzantine churches?

5Loaves in Post #14 I’m not sure what you mean by we’re actually 21 different Catholic Churches. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I thought there were 23 Catholic Churches in communion with the Holy See: 1 Latin, 22 Eastern of which 14 are Byzantine.

I’ve never been to an Extraordinary Form Mass so cannot comment on it. I’ve been to Ordinary Form Mass – when on holiday, weddings, funerals, etc. I normally only go to my Parish Church rather than going to different churches. However, I have seen the OF celebrated differently.

I don’t think it’s correct to say that the left-hand side of the flier accurately reflects the ‘average’ OF Mass. Mass is never ‘average’ anyway!

If anyone has ever been to a Mass celebrated in an Oratorian church they’d find the left-hand side of the flier is very inaccurate. Mass is celebrated ad orientem; the music is ‘heavenly’; the Mass is celebrated with great reverence; the priests do the red and say the black.

Matthew

what is that?

 

[PA650]

what is that?

I am assuming Matthew Holford is writing of an Oratory parish, such as the Birmingham Oratory:
birmingham-oratory.org.uk/

Moreover, an example of the liturgy evident at the Birmingham Oratory:
newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/06/corpus-christi-from-birmingham-oratory.html

 

[5Loaves]

Hi

5Loaves in Post #14 I’m not sure what you mean by we’re actually 21 different Catholic Churches.

I meant that we are autonomous, self-governing (sui iuris) particular Churches.
Yes, we are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

what is that?

Hi VetA

PA650 is correct. I was referring to the Oratorians (http://www.oratoriosanfilippo.org/) who were founded in the sixteenth century by St Philip Neri. I don’t think they’re technically a religious order or congregation but they are priests who do live together in community. There’s several Oratories in the UK. PA650 gave you the link for the one in Birmingham. There’s another one in London (http://www.bromptonoratory.com/), there’s one in Manchester (http://www.holyname.co.uk/) and another in Oxford (http://www.oxfordoratory.org.uk/).

Regards, MH

 

[Vico]

Address Of The Holy Father John Paul II To The Confederation Of The Oratory Of St Philip Neri(2000)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2000/oct-dec/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20001005_san-filippo-neri_en.html

The oratory is a place of prayer (but not a church) most are under control of a bishop but they may be private. Catholic funerals cannot normally be held there. The Eastern Churches also have a tradition of oratories.