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BVMFatima
Guest
You mentioned that it kinda was in communion, and since it was orthodox I didn’t know if you were referring to the great schism or the Orthododx Churches reuniteing with rome etc.
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Cyrillic
Guest
Ever heard of the false union of Florence?You mentioned that it kinda was in communion, and since it was orthodox I didn’t know if you were referring to the great schism or the Orthododx Churches reuniteing with rome etc.
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BVMFatima
Guest
Sounds familiarEver heard of the false union of Florence?
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Elizium23
Guest
It was a Catholic cathedral from its foundation in AD 360 until the schism when there gradually became a distinction between us and the Orthodox; in 1204 it was sacked by Crusaders of the Latin Church (a shameful occurrence for which the Latin Church is very sorry) and became again a Catholic cathedral until 1261, at which point it was again converted to a Greek Orthodox cathedral until the city was overrun by Muslim hordes in 1453.It was not a Catholic church, but an Orthodox one.
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
Perhaps an easier way to think about it …Really? Well why do Byzantine Catholics honor it if it was Orthodox? They are not in communion with us
Byzantine = of the Byzantine Empire, the center and capitol of which was Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) where Hagia Sophia is located.
One might consider Hagia Sophia to be the Eastern equivalent of St. Peter’s Basilica in its day - it was the center of Byzantine Christianity, from which the Byzantine rite originated, grew and developed.
There are several Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, that follow the Byzantine Rite to this day. We all follow the liturgical traditions that originated in Byzantium, with Hagia Sophia viewed as the pinnacle of such tradition.
For Byzantine Catholics from the Slavic regions of Eastern Europe (including the Ruthenians - Fr. Loya’s church, the web address you cited is that of his parish, is part of this particular Church), it holds a special meaning. Christianity was brought to the territory by Sts. Cyril & Methodius, at the request of Prince Vladimir of Kiev. He famously sent envoys to several religious centers, in a quest for a religion for his people. His envoys to Hagia Sophia reported back that they “knew not whether they were in heaven or on earth” after experiencing the Divine Liturgy there.
The rest, as they say, is history!
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BVMFatima
Guest
Wow, i really want to visit it some day!
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
BTW - you might find this video interesting, narrated by Fr. Loya:
The Eastern Churches - An Introduction
The Eastern Churches - An Introduction
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Green_Umbrella
Guest
No mention of the sack of Constantinople by Latin Crusaders is complete without mention of the riots in 1182. Scholar Dr. Warren Carroll says…It was a Catholic cathedral from its foundation in AD 360 until the schism when there gradually became a distinction between us and the Orthodox; in 1204 it was sacked by Crusaders of the Latin Church (a shameful occurrence for which the Latin Church is very sorry) and became again a Catholic cathedral until 1261, at which point it was again converted to a Greek Orthodox cathedral until the city was overrun by Muslim hordes in 1453.
**…it should in justice be remembered that it was not totally unprovoked; more than once (as in the massacre of 1182) the Greeks of Constantinople had treated the Latins there as they were now being treated …
(massacre of 1182)
…a nightmarish massacre of thousands in which the slaughterers spared neither women nor children, neither old nor sick, neither priest nor monk. Cardinal John, the Pope’s representative, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog; children were cut out of their mother’s wombs; bodies of dead Westerners were exhumed and abused; some 4,000 who escaped death were sold into slavery to the Turks.**
The boys in the east babes in the woods, not quite.
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Green_Umbrella
Guest
¨The Massacre of the Latins was a large-scale massacre of the Roman Catholic or “Latin” inhabitants of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire, by the Eastern Orthodox population of the city in May 1182¨
Deaths Unknown, tens of thousands
I doubt it took much to get the Latins fired up to create havoc.
Massacre of the Latins
Deaths Unknown, tens of thousands
I doubt it took much to get the Latins fired up to create havoc.
Massacre of the Latins
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
Well we can all be proud of the outcome, as it relates to the OP.The boys in the east babes in the woods, not quite.
Hagia Sophia, the center of Byzantine Christianity (Orthodox and Catholic) is now a museum. If you wish to pray there, be prepared to spend time in a Turkish prison.
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Green_Umbrella
Guest
The loss of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia is not the outcome of events in 1204 but rather an event in 1054.Well we can all be proud of the outcome, as it relates to the OP.
Hagia Sophia, the center of Byzantine Christianity (Orthodox and Catholic) is now a museum. If you wish to pray there, be prepared to spend time in a Turkish prison.
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Elizium23
Guest
1054 was in some ways the beginning of a process, and in some ways also the culmination of an unfortunate series of events. It was a turning point that we say marks the beginning of the East-West Schism. The Church at that point did not cleanly split into two. 1204 contributed notoriously to the acrimonious split. However, the division we see between Catholic and Orthodox in the modern times is the aggravated result of 1000 years of separation. The Schism continues to act as a wedge today, although there are also meaningful efforts to reduce and soothe the wounds with an ultimate hope of unity.The loss of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia is not the outcome of events in 1204 but rather an event in 1054.
At first when I read your words about the “loss of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia” I thought you were saying that the Western Church lost it. But they were truly lost when the Muslim hordes captured them, and I am sure this is what you meant.
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Green_Umbrella
Guest
This is correct.At first when I read your words about the “loss of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia” I thought you were saying that the Western Church lost it. But they were truly lost when the Muslim hordes captured them, and I am sure this is what you meant.
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Befink
Guest
It is true that they forbid prayer in Hagia Sofia for both Muslims and Christians. Unless you’re part of a major protest, I’m sure the worst that would happen is security personnel would just ask you to stop. My guess is they are just trying to avoid unnecessary tension between Muslims and Christians. I would still pray inwardly and not worry about it.
hagiasophia.co
In case you’re wondering about modern Catholicism in Turkey:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._Anthony_of_Padua,_Istanbul
I’ve been by this church. It’s pretty prominent in a major shopping and business district of Istanbul. Obviously the congregation is not being sent to Turkish prisons. I would certainly look forward to mass there next time I go. There are other Roman Catholic churches in Turkey as well as many other forms of Christianity. Not to say that there is never religious tension but Turkey does very well mixing east and west.
Many mosaics and other Christian images have been found and restored. Here’s one example, also in Istanbul. There are many others around the country.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chora_Church
Hope you get to go sometime.
hagiasophia.co
In case you’re wondering about modern Catholicism in Turkey:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._Anthony_of_Padua,_Istanbul
I’ve been by this church. It’s pretty prominent in a major shopping and business district of Istanbul. Obviously the congregation is not being sent to Turkish prisons. I would certainly look forward to mass there next time I go. There are other Roman Catholic churches in Turkey as well as many other forms of Christianity. Not to say that there is never religious tension but Turkey does very well mixing east and west.
Many mosaics and other Christian images have been found and restored. Here’s one example, also in Istanbul. There are many others around the country.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chora_Church
Hope you get to go sometime.
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5Loaves
Guest
Like you I have been told that anyone who appears to pray inside Hagia Sophia with any outward gestures (sign of the Cross, kneeling, prayer rope) will at the least be escorted out if not arrested. Christian clergy are not allowed to wear clerical garb on the streets. Our deacon was there last year. It sounded like he saw a priest in his cassock out on the street within the Phanar/Fener which was an “improvement” compared to his previous trip a few years before.Well we can all be proud of the outcome, as it relates to the OP.
Hagia Sophia, the center of Byzantine Christianity (Orthodox and Catholic) is now a museum. If you wish to pray there, be prepared to spend time in a Turkish prison.
60 Minutes “Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew feels Crucified”(CBS) seems to have gotten most of it right in their program a couple of years ago about the Orthodox Church in Turkey.
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Aramis
Guest
Except for the Italo-Albanians.In 1453 the Byzantine Catholics were Orthodox.
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Cyrillic
Guest
And a few Basilian monks in Rome, IIRC.Except for the Italo-Albanians.
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Green_Umbrella
Guest
Nothing ¨false¨ about it.Ever heard of the false union of Florence?
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
This was a well done segment. Highly recommend it!60 Minutes “Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew feels Crucified”(CBS) seems to have gotten most of it right in their program a couple of years ago about the Orthodox Church in Turkey.
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Cyrillic
Guest
Why then did the union collapse within a few years? Why then did most of the Orthodox bishops repudiate the union as soon as they got back?Nothing ¨false¨ about it.
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