Byzantine Liturgy

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English IS the liturgical language of the Pittsburgh Metropolis.

I assume that there are provisions for the use of slavonic under some circumstances, and that some parishes are still using bits of it anyway, but everything is English now.

A couple of years ago at the eparchial conference for clergy, the handouts double-underlined that the Rutheniann immigration is over, no more are coming, making the point that if the parishes want to continue existing, they better get their **** in gear evangelizing their communities.
 
a strong majority simply aren’t Ruthenian.

some stop by by accident (not knowing it’s not RC, or even having heard of Eastern Christianity), some visit on purpose, some hear our priest covering an RC Mass and come to check us out, and so forth. Many end up staying.
 
dochawk said:
but everything is English now.
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Generally speaking, this is true. I would disagree with the use of the word everything. Absolutes are almost always wrong (and I can cite examples of this particular absolute being wrong).
dochawk said:
the Rutheniann immigration is over , no more are coming,
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Except for a whole lot of priests, along with their wives and children, and the occasional bishop. I guess they are missionaries and not immigrants. 🙂
 
dochawk said:
a strong majority simply aren’t Ruthenian.

some stop by by accident (not knowing it’s not RC, or even having heard of Eastern Christianity), some visit on purpose, some hear our priest covering an RC Mass and come to check us out, and so forth. Many end up staying.
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I think this is more true in the Eparchy of Pittsburgh than in the Eastern United States. It is certainly true of my parish, but I would hesitate to say the same thing about a parish in Pittsburgh.

Not that I disagree with you about the Ruthenian Church being the best bet for an English Liturgy.
 
the nearest Ruthenian Church near me is 11 miles away. 20 minutes away. I was planning to pay a visit just before this covid crisis. I notice the priest has a Eastern European type name but his accent is American. So I figure he could be a 2nd/3rd/4th gen Euro-American.
 
Alexandria2020 said:
the nearest Ruthenian Church near me is 11 miles away. 20 minutes away. I was planning to pay a visit just before this covid crisis. I notice the priest has a Eastern European type name but his accent is American. So I figure he could be a 2nd/3rd/4th gen Euro-American.
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What part of the country are you in?
 
I’m near Trenton, NJ. I figure this area must be under the Eparchy (Diocese) of Passaic.
 
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How many Eparchies Do you guys have here? The Syro Malabar Catholic Church has 1 Eparchy (A pretty big one though, with 44 parishes (15 Knanaya parishes) , and 32 missions (5 Knanaya missions.) We had thought of splitting the eparchy into East and West, but that eventually went out of priority. We also have a different Eparchy in Canada (12 parishes and 34 missions)
 
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Explain how?

The litanies are the prayers of the people, asking for God’s mercy, led by the deacon.

The priest holding up the chalice, facing the people, is combined with one of our oldest prayers and something we share with many West Syriac liturgies for example. The prayer is: “The Holy Gifts for the holy people of God”. The response of the people is “One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen”, which indicates that the whole gathering partakes in Christ and is transformed into His Body, as God alone is holy.

Most commentaries that I would like to recommend require that you are somewhat familiar with the Liturgy, but I’ve heard that “Let Us Attend: A Journey Through the Orthodox Divine Liturgy” is a good introduction for those interested in our faith. If you want to know the history and how the different gestures came about, Taft’s “The Byzantine Rite: A Short History” is probably the best place to start. I have read that one several times, along with some of his other works. He was a Jesuit and highly respected among us Orthodox.
 
They are different from the Syro-Malabar Church in the sense that the Ruthenian Church has a good majority of the church based in the US. Immigrants from the church arrived some 100+ years ago. While the major chunk of the Syro-Malabar Church is primarily in India.
 
as per wikipedia … I don’t think the Ruthenian Church has one synod. Mainly because the Eparchy of Mukachevо in Ukraine wants to join and be a part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC).

Metropolia of Pittsburgh (USA) (one archeparchy, three suffragan eparchies)
  • Ruthenian Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh (established in 1924)
  • Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Parma(1969)
  • Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Passaic (1963)
  • Ruthenian Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix(founded 1981)
Immediately subject to the Holy See (Eastern Europe)
  • Eparchy of Mukachevо(1771) - Ukraine
  • Apostolic Exarchate of Czech Republic(1996)
 
Lasse said:
The priest holding up the chalice, facing the people, is combined with one of our oldest prayers and something we share with many West Syriac liturgies for example. The prayer is: “The Holy Gifts for the holy people of God”. The response of the people is “One is Holy, one is Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen”, which indicates that the whole gathering partakes in Christ and is transformed into His Body, as God alone is holy.
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Not to disagree with you or anything but I feel like that prayer was probably already there before the West Syriacs started getting Hellenised because in the East Syriac rite, we do have a similair prayer
"C:The Holy Qurbana is for the Holy People
A: God the Father alone is Holy, God the Son is alone is Holy, God the Spirit alone is Holy. Glory be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
Se:Let us praise the Living God.
ALL: Let there be eternal praise to Him in the
Church. Let His blessings and mercy be on us at all
times.
 
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I thought this was the case, but I wanted to double check my books before writing it in public, and they are all in boxes right now.

As for the Wesr Syriac tradition: we pretty much got our liturgical foundation from Antioch, so I guess it was a matter of give and take. 😊
 
You are Syriac Orthodox? You guys have the best liturgy! I am Syro Malabar and we have a cordial relationship with the Jacobite Syrians in Kerala! And as for the Antiochian tradition…We probably used the East Syriac form of the Holy Qurbana, but eventually we separated into our separate ways. We formed our own church, the Church of the East, so we weren’t hellenised (I do have some proof. First, the Liturgy starts with Manitho Of Mor Severus, which is basically the Great Incensing in the Byzantine rite. Then you have the Trisiagion and the readings. That’s how it was in the East Syriac rite until we added a lot more prayers like Laku Mara! Also many things are expanded or contracted upon too. Like the Dipytchs were expanded upon while the 3 other karozuthas became obsolete in the West Syriac rite. The Hoothomo in the West Syriac is just a hymn while in the East Syriac rite both the hymn and a couple of prayers before that exist. In the West Syriac rite a sedro is said which asks for mercy, and is also a meditative prayer too while in the East Syriac rite a Karozuza is said which also asks for mercy and are also dypitchs) Both the 2 churches were orginally under the Patriarch of Antioch until we split
 
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Elvis_George said:
You are Syriac Orthodox? You guys have the best liturgy! I am Syro Malabar and we have a cordial relationship with the Jacobite Syrians in Kerala! And as for the Antiochian tradition…We probably used the East Syriac form of the Holy Qurbana, but eventually we separated into our separate ways. We formed our own church, the Church of the East, so we weren’t hellenised (I do have some proof. First, the Liturgy starts with Manitho Of Mor Severus, which is basically the Great Incensing in the Byzantine rite. Then you have the Trisiagion and the readings. That’s how it was in the East Syriac rite until we added a lot more prayers like Laku Mara! Also many things are expanded or contracted upon too. Like the Dipytchs were expanded upon while the 3 other karozuthas became obsolete in the West Syriac rite. The Hoothomo in the West Syriac is just a hymn while in the East Syriac rite both the hymn and a couple of prayers before that exist. In the West Syriac rite a sedro is said which asks for mercy, and is also a meditative prayer too while in the East Syriac rite a Karozuza is said which also asks for mercy and are also dypitchs) Both the 2 churches were orginally under the Patriarch of Antioch until we split
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so are you saying the Byzantine Rite, West Syriac Rite and East Syriac Rite all originated at Antioch? the East Syriacs were later called heretics as they later became the Church of the East which was never in communion with any of the Orthodox churches.
 
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Byzantine rite, I doubt it. I just stated that the West Syriac rite was heavily influenced by the Byzantine rite. The Byzantine rite was not used in the territory of Antioch until the Melkite aligned themselves to Constantinople and gradually accepted the Byzantine Rite. The other 2 did orginate from Antioch, but probably used different anaphorae. The West Syriac rite and those of the Levant area primairly used the Anaphora of St James. Those in the Mesopotamia region and those in India used the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mari. Because most East Syriacs lived in the Sassanian Empire, China, Mongolia, or India, it was difficult for us to attend the Ecuemnical Councils plus we were accused of being pro-roman by the sassanians so we made our own church, the church of the East
 
I’ve heard that the West Syriac liturgy was originally in Syriac. This version has been lost. Then it was translated to Greek. And then re-translated to Syriac. I think the Byzantine Rite might have been influenced by the West Syriac. Can’t be the other way around?

About the Melkites - does that mean they were originally West Syriac and then accepted the Byzantine Rite?
 
It probably wasn’t the other way around because theologians like Bar Hearbeus and Jacob Bordono were proficient in Greek philosophy and theology and were influenced by it. Not just that, but west syriac uses greek vowels as it vowels and uses many greek words in its liturgy like Staomen Kalos and Kyrie Eleison…and for Melkites…thats what I have heard
 
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