Byzantine Rosary!

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I’ve had a life-long devotion to St. Francis of Assisi; hence my choice to attend the Franciscan University of Steubenville. When I was finally able to go to Assisi it was literally a life-long dream come true. My wife (then fiancé) was kind enough, at my request, to give me an entire day to roam the city alone. So I too have a Franciscan Crown, although it’s been years since I’ve prayed it.

I don’t know if I could make a San Damiano crucifix out of knots. That would take a good deal of experimenting.
 
I think a Catholic would have to omit the “toll-house” thing. It’s not a Catholic belief. There are even many Orthodox who say that this is a gnostic teaching (I agree).

How about this?

14) O Most Holy Sovereign Theotokos, grant me an untroubled and peaceful end and lead my soul through the terrible pains of purgatory.
I find it interesting that many RC on this forum and elsewhere make the claim that Orthodox already believe in Purgatory because of the Toll Houses, which Orthodox deny, some claiming it is gnostic.

You agree that the belief in toll houses is gnostic, then turn around and suggest Purgatory as a suitable substitute.
 
I find it interesting that many RC on this forum and elsewhere make the claim that Orthodox already believe in Purgatory because of the Toll Houses, which Orthodox deny, some claiming it is gnostic.

You agree that the belief in toll houses is gnostic, then turn around and suggest Purgatory as a suitable substitute.
Hesychios, is there actually a unified Orthodox teaching on this matter? I’ve heard some Orthodox still hold to the Tole House theory, others profess belief in purgatory, and still others maintain that there is some sort of theosis that takes place after death but before entrance into heaven, but the nature of this theosis is unknown. Interestingly, this last example most closely reflects current Roman Catholic teaching on the matter. But what is the “official” Orthodox teaching?
 
Hesychios, is there actually a unified Orthodox teaching on this matter? I’ve heard some Orthodox still hold to the Tole House theory, others profess belief in purgatory, and still others maintain that there is some sort of theosis that takes place after death but before entrance into heaven, but the nature of this theosis is unknown. Interestingly, this last example most closely reflects current Roman Catholic teaching on the matter. But what is the “official” Orthodox teaching?
The Orthodox are very fluid on the subject.

Theoretically Theosis can continue on after bodily repose, this is something I think is commonly believed.

That does not mean that Theosis is accomplished through punishment and terrors.

Could there be punishment involved in this process? Yes. Is that the only way? No.

Let us look at it through an analogy for a brief moment. If I was to tell you and your lovely better half that you were invited to dinner at the White House, a command performance before the Queen or a personal audience with the Pope, how would you prepare?

Should we take you out and beat you bloody and terrify you?

Or would you go down to the haberdasher, and pick out some new threads, get the wife’s hairdo touched up and pull out Grandma’s earrings and necklace? 🙂

Maybe you don’t quite fit in last years suit, some trips to the gym might be in order, and you buy a new tie in eager anticipation of the big day.

There is a lot of prep going on here, out of respect, and awe, and perhaps even love for this important person you are about to meet for the very first time.

Purgatory is like a penitentiary, a gulag, a place of punishment while awaiting trial. This is not how we always prepare ourselves to meet the King.

Can punishment be a part of the process of reconciliation and growth in holiness? Of course! Is it necessarily the way it is always done? That is too much to assume, it is too narrow an interpretation, it can be a pious opinion but not a dogma.

Perhaps I really deserve this bit of hellish treatment, perhaps you do, so be it.

For Orthodox, we believe that sins forgiven in confession are totally forgiven, there are no residual temporal punishments due. They are either indulgenced by Christ in confession or the priest will not absolve the sin and tell us why. We deserve justice and beg for mercy … when God forgives, He forgives unconditionally.

I recently read a very interest book by a French scholar about the origin of Purgatory as a doctrine (got it through the library 👍 ). It is called The Birth of Purgatory by Jacques LeGoff, a Medeivalist. In it he traces most of the ideas which have bubbled up on the topic since Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, notes their contradictions and how the various strands of ideas evolved. He covers to a raft of visions and dreams in the tenth and eleventh centuries which helped to formulate the idea which finally became a doctrine in the west in the eleventh century.

Fascinating reading.

The dogma itself is rather vague, which helps it accommodate the wide range of folk beliefs and theories that had arisien in so many centuries. But most Roman Catholics will agree with Tradyca above, when she refers to the dogma in such terms as “the terrible pains of purgatory”. As a theologumenon, I suppose some Orthodox could accept it, as a dogma no.

Purgatory and Theosis are in no way equivalent ideas, they meet on a tangent in one small point.
 
I’ve had a life-long devotion to St. Francis of Assisi; hence my choice to attend the Franciscan University of Steubenville. When I was finally able to go to Assisi it was literally a life-long dream come true. My wife (then fiancé) was kind enough, at my request, to give me an entire day to roam the city alone. So I too have a Franciscan Crown, although it’s been years since I’ve prayed it.

I don’t know if I could make a San Damiano crucifix out of knots. That would take a good deal of experimenting.
umm ik this is off topic, but im about ready to go to college and thats the college im gonna apply for, how hard is to get in? God bless
 
The Orthodox are very fluid on the subject.

Theoretically Theosis can continue on after bodily repose, this is something I think is commonly believed.

That does not mean that Theosis is accomplished through punishment and terrors.

Could there be punishment involved in this process? Yes. Is that the only way? No.

Let us look at it through an analogy for a brief moment. If I was to tell you and your lovely better half that you were invited to dinner at the White House, a command performance before the Queen or a personal audience with the Pope, how would you prepare?

Should we take you out and beat you bloody and terrify you?

Or would you go down to the haberdasher, and pick out some new threads, get the wife’s hairdo touched up and pull out Grandma’s earrings and necklace? 🙂

Maybe you don’t quite fit in last years suit, some trips to the gym might be in order, and you buy a new tie in eager anticipation of the big day.

There is a lot of prep going on here, out of respect, and awe, and perhaps even love for this important person you are about to meet for the very first time.

Purgatory is like a penitentiary, a gulag, a place of punishment while awaiting trial. This is not how we always prepare ourselves to meet the King.

Can punishment be a part of the process of reconciliation and growth in holiness? Of course! Is it necessarily the way it is always done? That is too much to assume, it is too narrow an interpretation, it can be a pious opinion but not a dogma.

Perhaps I really deserve this bit of hellish treatment, perhaps you do, so be it.

For Orthodox, we believe that sins forgiven in confession are totally forgiven, there are no residual temporal punishments due. They are either indulgenced by Christ in confession or the priest will not absolve the sin and tell us why. We deserve justice and beg for mercy … when God forgives, He forgives unconditionally.

I recently read a very interest book by a French scholar about the origin of Purgatory as a doctrine (got it through the library 👍 ). It is called The Birth of Purgatory by Jacques LeGoff, a Medeivalist. In it he traces most of the ideas which have bubbled up on the topic since Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, notes their contradictions and how the various strands of ideas evolved. He covers to a raft of visions and dreams in the tenth and eleventh centuries which helped to formulate the idea which finally became a doctrine in the west in the eleventh century.

Fascinating reading.

The dogma itself is rather vague, which helps it accommodate the wide range of folk beliefs and theories that had arisien in so many centuries. But most Roman Catholics will agree with Tradyca above, when she refers to the dogma in such terms as “the terrible pains of purgatory”. As a theologumenon, I suppose some Orthodox could accept it, as a dogma no.

Purgatory and Theosis are in no way equivalent ideas, they meet on a tangent in one small point.
Very good. Thank you, Hesychios. 👍 The only problem that I have with this is that the Roman Church herself has rejected the Medieval theologumenon that purgatory is a place of torture. Particularly since the Second Vatican Council Rome has opted for a more vague definition of purgatory, thinking of it more along the lines of a “refiners fire” where gold is taken to be purified. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself makes no reference to the “pains,” “tortures,” “torments,” etc. of purgatory, but simply speaks of a process of purification “entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (emphasis mine). As to the nature of that purification, the Church remains silent. All else is speculation. I’ve heard a large number of Roman Catholic theologians actually outright condemn the notion that purgatory is some sort of “miniature Hell.” Fr. Benedict Groeschell himself once spoke of a certain popular book on purgatory entitled Purgatory Explained, and said that that book should be banned from all Catholic libraries since it does not represent the Church’s teaching on purgatory at all. Other Roman theologians, such as Scott Hahn, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Regis Martin, and even Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, have spoken of purgatory as a place not of pain and suffering, but a place of great joy and hope.

If the idea that purgatory is little more than a temporary Hell, a place of agony, torment and torture, persists, then it persists primarily on the level the popular piety of the masses. But it is certainly by no means the “official” teaching of even Roman Catholicism, let alone the entire Catholic Church East and West.

But on the whole I believe you are correct. And I’m grateful for your enlightening reply. 😃
 
Sorry. I just realized we’re starting to get WAY off topic by discussing purgatory in a thread that’s about the “Byzantine rosary.” :o
 
Polite conversations among friends have a tendency to evolve by nature. There is some relevance to what we write here …
 
Polite conversations among friends have a tendency to evolve by nature. There is some relevance to what we write here …
😃

Thanks, Hesychios! Conversing with you is not only educational, it’s also a pure pleasure. 👍
 
Hello All,

I just wanted to provide some links to a few variations of the “Byzantine Rosary,” more commonly known as the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos.” This work has been in large part due to our old friend, Alex Roman, who is sadly no longer on the forums. But he provided the translation of the Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy that made the reconstruction of the Rule in one of its forms possible. 👍 I miss Alex. 😦

Anyhow, here is the Rule in three forms:

themasterbeadsman.blogspot.com/2012/05/prayer-rule-of-theotokos-ii-st-seraphim.html

themasterbeadsman.blogspot.com/2012/05/prayer-rule-of-theotokos-iii-st.html

themasterbeadsman.blogspot.com/2012/05/prayer-rule-of-theotokos-iv.html

What do y’all think?
But just a question, which of these three are recommeneded? And can someone that has a growing interest for the orthodoxy like me (ROCOR) pray the chotoki or komboskini as it is called?
 
But just a question, which of these three are recommeneded? And can someone that has a growing interest for the orthodoxy like me (ROCOR) pray the chotoki or komboskini as it is called?
Hi Padraig,

Any of those three are perfectly acceptable, and no one is recommended more than any of the others. Just pick one that is more suited to your devotion and prayer life, and then go at it!

And you can indeed pray with a chotki/komboskini/vervitsa/prayer rope. Most people pray the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner) on the prayer rope, but if you have another favorite short prayer that helps draw you more deeply into the indwelling presence of the Trinity, then you are free to say that instead. 👍
 
Very good. Thank you, Hesychios. 👍 The only problem that I have with this is that the Roman Church herself has rejected the Medieval theologumenon that purgatory is a place of torture. Particularly since the Second Vatican Council Rome has opted for a more vague definition of purgatory, thinking of it more along the lines of a “refiners fire” where gold is taken to be purified. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself makes no reference to the “pains,” “tortures,” “torments,” etc. of purgatory, but simply speaks of a process of purification “entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (emphasis mine). As to the nature of that purification, the Church remains silent. All else is speculation. I’ve heard a large number of Roman Catholic theologians actually outright condemn the notion that purgatory is some sort of “miniature Hell.” Fr. Benedict Groeschell himself once spoke of a certain popular book on purgatory entitled Purgatory Explained, and said that that book should be banned from all Catholic libraries since it does not represent the Church’s teaching on purgatory at all. Other Roman theologians, such as Scott Hahn, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Regis Martin, and even Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, have spoken of purgatory as a place not of pain and suffering, but a place of great joy and hope.

If the idea that purgatory is little more than a temporary Hell, a place of agony, torment and torture, persists, then it persists primarily on the level the popular piety of the masses. But it is certainly by no means the “official” teaching of even Roman Catholicism, let alone the entire Catholic Church East and West.

But on the whole I believe you are correct. And I’m grateful for your enlightening reply. 😃
From the Baltimore Catechism:

"Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?

A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins."

Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?

A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0104/_P2I.HTM

How would you understand the claim that we must undergo punishment for sins, and that God’s justice demands it?
 
From the Baltimore Catechism:

"Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?

A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins."

Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?

A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0104/_P2I.HTM

How would you understand the claim that we must undergo punishment for sins, and that God’s justice demands it?
I would simply point out that the Baltimore Catechism isn’t the product of a Council for the entire Catholic Church, but rather is the product of a local synod in Baltimore, Maryland. It only really exists in the United States. As such, its teachings are not “infallible” and in this case it simply puts forward the now defunct Roman theolgumenon on the dogma of purgatory. 🙂
 
To get back to the original thread, I just want to say that I copied the link to the site and sent it to Father Sopoliga over at Sts Cyril and Methodious. His response was “Nice!”
Thank you Phillip for such a wealth of information.
 
To get back to the original thread, I just want to say that I copied the link to the site and sent it to Father Sopoliga over at Sts Cyril and Methodious. His response was “Nice!”
Thank you Phillip for such a wealth of information.
rciadan,

Thanks for sending it over to Fr. Sopoliga! That’s quite a nice surprise. 😃 I currently have a good friend over at Sts. Cyril and Methodius studying for the priesthood. Hopefully Father will spread the word over there. 🙂

The blog has been really fun so far and I’ve learned a great deal just by sharing. I’m looking forward to seeing how things take off with it.

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip
 
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