Byzantine understanding of purification

[rciadan]

Can someone explain this? The question though, is not,“What you think it means?”, but “What is the** Byzantine teaching** on this?”

 

[neokarny]

Can someone explain this? The question though, is not,“What you think it means?”, but “What is the** Byzantine teaching** on this?”

What do you mean by “purification?” Post-death purification/purgation?

 

[UncleBill]

It is a mystery. End of point. Why must Western Christians have to “understand” how everything works? The Church says we undergo purification as part of Theosis…isn’t that enough?

 

[LionHeart777]

It is a mystery. End of point. Why must Western Christians have to “understand” how everything works? The Church says we undergo purification as part of Theosis…isn’t that enough?

UncleBill,

Can we agree that the desire to understand Divine Revelation deeper throughout history is not purely a Western phenomenon?

Also, I would say that what you have written on the subject is not enough (even if you are referring specifically to a post-mortem purification) because Purgatory (as we Latins call it) was attacked by Protestants.

Finally, all of the Mystery is not left out of the Dogma as there is still room for Theological speculation.

 

[LionHeart777]

While I don’t believe Byzantine Christians (Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) would see him as representative of the Byzantine view of the final purification (please correct me if I’m wrong), the Greek Father St. Gregory of Nyssa had this to say:

‘If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire’ (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

 

[neokarny]

While I don’t believe Byzantine Christians (Catholic or Eastern Orthodox) would see him as representative of the Byzantine view of the final purification (please correct me if I’m wrong), the Greek Father St. Gregory of Nyssa had this to say:

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

I can’t help but wonder if that passage is related to his, rather controversial, form of universal reconciliation.

Also, I find the term “final purification” to be alien. Are you saying it in reference to human corruption and original sin, or to something else?

 

[LionHeart777]

I can’t help but wonder if that passage is related to his, rather controversial, form of universal reconciliation.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here, can you please explain?

Also, I find the term “final purification” to be alien. Are you saying it in reference to human corruption and original sin, or to something else?

There’s that language thing perhaps… Let me rephrase it to, post-mortem purification before one enters Heaven. Does that help more?

 

[neokarny]

I’m not quite sure what you mean here, can you please explain?

St. Gregory of Nyssa is fairly infamous for having a view, or at least so far as I’ve heard, that is pretty close to universalism. I believe it’s in him that some Orthodox look to for the “hope” of universal reconcilation, in contrast to the condemned “absolute” of universal reconcilation. Anyway, I could see this passage of a purgation tying with such a teaching.

There’s that language thing perhaps… Let me rephrase it to, post-mortem purification before one enters Heaven. Does that help more?

Somewhat. Although, I’m still unsure whether you mean it as cleansing our corruption (original sin) itself, or if it’s a purification of our sins and their effects? Or both?

 

[LionHeart777]

…Somewhat. Although, I’m still unsure whether you mean it as cleansing our corruption (original sin) itself, or if it’s a purification of our sins and their effects? Or both?

No, to my understanding (I’m a convert from Protestantism), the stain of original sin is cleansed in Baptism. Purgatory (final purification, however one name’s the concept of a post mortem purification), is the final purification of what we Latins term as venial sins and the effects of sins (whether they be venial or mortal), including the temporal punishment still due for sins and even a purging of attachment to sin. Jimmy Akin has described purgatory as the final rush of our sanctification. (Just to clarify, Mortal Sins are only forgiven in the Sacrament of Reconciliation- or a perfect act of contrition, if I’m not mistaken, coupled with the intent to have recourse to said Sacrament.- not sure about for non-Catholics.) But I digress, as we are talking about the Latin concept of Purgatory.

 

[neokarny]

No, to my understanding (I’m a convert from Protestantism), the stain of original sin is cleansed in Baptism. Purgatory (final purification, however one name’s the concept of a post mortem purification), is the final purification of what we Latins term as venial sins and the effects of sins (whether they be venial or mortal), including the temporal punishment still due for sins and even a purging of attachment to sin. Jimmy Akin has described purgatory as the final rush of our sanctification. (Just to clarify, Mortal Sins are only forgiven in the Sacrament of Reconciliation- or a perfect act of contrition, if I’m not mistaken, coupled with the intent to have recourse to said Sacrament.- not sure about for non-Catholics.) But I digress, as we are talking about the Latin concept of Purgatory.

I see.

Well, from my understanding, it seems we differ on a couple parts here.I’ve heard this applies to the EC’s as well, and you may already know this, but we don’t usually make a venial-mortal distinction. Anyway, I think a major departure is that we don’t tend to have any real concept of “temporal punishment due for sins.” I believe any purification process for us would probably not have punishment involved. Cleansing attachment of sin sounds like it could be something we would believe.

Also, you described it as “the final rush of our sanctification.” This is different from our approach as well, since I believe we tend to equate sanctification with theosis, or our deification, which is greatly an eternal process.

I think the Byzantine understanding of “particular judgment” VS “last judgment” may be important here. We believe that, after death, we face our “particular judgment,” which is a foretaste of the “last judgment.” So one that is deemed righteous will experience a foretaste - yet still imperfect - of paradise. Likewise, the unpenitent will experience an imperfect foretaste of hell. Then eventually all will be resurrected and face the last judgment, whereby those that were “saved” will taste the full fruits of the atonement, so to speak. I sadly don’t know enough, but this may be the point it’s proper to say we’re “deified” (even if never “completely”).

I’m honestly not sure how a process of purgation would feature in this. After, before, or as part of one’s particular judgment? I don’t know. I don’t think we espouse any substantial view on “purification,” unless it’s just intrinsically linked with the ongoing process of theosis after death.

 

[Boulder257]

It is a mystery. End of point. Why must Western Christians have to “understand” how everything works? The Church says we undergo purification as part of Theosis…isn’t that enough?

What is wrong with wanting to understand things? I don’t see any reason to criticize a person because they want to learn more about their faith.

 

[UncleBill]

What is wrong with wanting to understand things? I don’t see any reason to criticize a person because they want to learn more about their faith.

Some things are beyond human understanding. They are not meant to be understood on a human level. They are mysteries.

 

[Boulder257]

Some things are beyond human understanding. They are not meant to be understood on a human level. They are mysteries.

I fully accept that as such. Nobody is saying we “have” to understand, but some of us grow through meditating upon these mysteries.Why criticise someone because they choose to contemplate some of the more complicated ideas relating to God?

 

[rciadan]

What do you mean by “purification?” Post-death purification/purgation?

No offense meant, but, if I knew what I meant by it I would not be asking, “What is meant by it?”.

 

[neokarny]

No offense meant, but, if I knew what I meant by it I would not be asking, “What is meant by it?”.

Well, you asked what the Byzantine teaching on it was, so I assumed you had at least a Latin (or otherwise) understanding to give as an example.

 

[rciadan]

It is a mystery. End of point. Why must Western Christians have to “understand” how everything works? The Church says we undergo purification as part of Theosis…isn’t that enough?

Because, Peter himself instructed that I, “…sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, *** being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you." 1 Peter 3:15
Or in another version, taken from the Orthodox Bible, "….always be ready to give a defense* to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you…”
He did not tell us to insult people and to tell them not to ask questions, or to berate them for wanting to understand why you believe what you do. That kind of response is un-biblical and un-Christian.
People I know, who care about me and my walk with the Lord are asking me questions because they love me. I owe it to them to do the best I can to explain to them why I am planning to transfer Rites. I don’t have to understand it all, but I should be able to explain those aspects that are explainable and to coherently explain why other parts of the faith are not. Not just infer to them that they have no right to ask a question!

 

[rciadan]

It is a mystery. End of point. Why must Western Christians have to “understand” how everything works? The Church says we undergo purification as part of Theosis…isn’t that enough?

And, is that really all the Church has to say about it? I think not.

 

[neokarny]

And, is that really all the Church has to say about it? I think not.

I think the Eastern Churches tend to say purification is part of theosis. I’ve personally never heard them separate it from theosis into its own process or event.

 

[rciadan]

Well, you asked what the Byzantine teaching on it was, so I assumed you had at least a Latin (or otherwise) understanding to give as an example.

I don’t want to muck up the dialogue with comparisons. That happens much too much around here.
I do not think that in the Eastern Seminaries that these concepts are only studied as to how they compare with Western thought.
They are not concepts that “spontaneously” came into being with no one ever actually attempting to explain where they came from or to reconcile them with any of the scriptures?
Somewhere, someone, must be able to explain the*** concepts*** involved even if the mechanics of the concepts are, in truth, Mysteries.
There must be Early Church Fathers, or Mystics who understood and taught these concepts. The Eastern Catholic Churches are not Churches that embrace novelty, These concepts would have had to be defended when they were introduced. Where are those defenses now?

 

[rciadan]

I think the Eastern Churches tend to say purification is part of theosis. I’ve personally never heard them separate it from theosis into its own process or event.

Then explain the concept of “Theosis”, or, better yet, point me to the one who introduced it and let me read what he has to say.