Byzantine wife/Latin husband

[Optimus_Prime]

Our family came into the Church from Protestantism 5 years ago. Actually I am technically a revert. My wife was raised Orthodox and entered the Church as a “Greek” Catholic as the rite calls it.

We have essentially been living the Latin life but my wife has been having eastern longings when visiting her family’s Greek Orthodox Church for various events has caused her to realize she need to be a regular participant in the Divine Liturgy to feel close to God. Anyway we went to the local Melkite Church on Sunday (which we frequented years ago when consider Catholicism but chickened out at the time). Anyway, it was amazing and my kids loved it too as they are very comfortable and familiar with the Divine Liturgy. We are happy to split our time.

The concern is my 9 year old daughter (the youngest) was afraid to receive communion because she thought it was an Orthodox Church and she knows the rules. We explained to her and she seemed to get it. Now I do not want her thinking mom is having a crisis of faith and wants to be Orthodox. I do not want confusion for her or my other kids. But I do want my wife to be the Christian she was meant to be and while she loves the intellectual tradition and saints of the western Church, her soul is eastern and she needs the DL. I sympathize as I have strong eastern affections and spirituality. How do I keep our little one from perceiving this as mom being separate (in some sense) from us?

Now my question: Do any of you integrate eastern and western spirituality into your domestic church? Other than saying the Jesus Prayer during our family prayers and having an Icon corner, which we do, I would love advice.

Also I feel as though Byzantine Catholicism is a part of my children’s birthright and heritage and want them to embrace it. I want them to love both, as I do, but I want to do it right, without alienating them from either. I also want this to make my wife and I spiritually closer and united - but I feel that could be tricky. But I also see the potential, God willing, for greater beauty in our marriage by embracing both traditions and having them compliment each other. I do not want either to be suppressed by the other - which clearly was happening and cause my wife pain.

I guess my questions boil down this way: How do we maintain a healthy bi-ritual home/Church life and spirituality without confusing our kids or alienating each other? My wife really needs this but I don’t want her to go it alone.

 

[Tomdstone]

Our family came into the Church from Protestantism 5 years ago. Actually I am technically a revert. My wife was raised Orthodox and entered the Church as a “Greek” Catholic as the rite calls it.

We have essentially been living the Latin life but my wife has been having eastern longings when visiting her family’s Greek Orthodox Church for various events has caused her to realize she need to be a regular participant in the Divine Liturgy to feel close to God. Anyway we went to the local Melkite Church on Sunday (which we frequented years ago when consider Catholicism but chickened out at the time). Anyway, it was amazing and my kids loved it too as they are very comfortable and familiar with the Divine Liturgy. We are happy to split our time.

The concern is my 9 year old daughter (the youngest) was afraid to receive communion because she thought it was an Orthodox Church and she knows the rules. We explained to her and she seemed to get it. Now I do not want her thinking mom is having a crisis of faith and wants to be Orthodox. I do not want confusion for her or my other kids. But I do want my wife to be the Christian she was meant to be and while she loves the intellectual tradition and saints of the western Church, her soul is eastern and she needs the DL. I sympathize as I have strong eastern affections and spirituality. How do I keep our little one from perceiving this as mom being separate (in some sense) from us?

Now my question: Do any of you integrate eastern and western spirituality into your domestic church? Other than saying the Jesus Prayer during our family prayers and having an Icon corner, which we do, I would love advice.

Also I feel as though Byzantine Catholicism is a part of my children’s birthright and heritage and want them to embrace it. I want them to love both, as I do, but I want to do it right, without alienating them from either. I also want this to make my wife and I spiritually closer and united - but I feel that could be tricky. But I also see the potential, God willing, for greater beauty in our marriage by embracing both traditions and having them compliment each other. I do not want either to be suppressed by the other - which clearly was happening and cause my wife pain.

I guess my questions boil down this way: How do we maintain a healthy bi-ritual home/Church life and spirituality without confusing our kids or alienating each other? My wife really needs this but I don’t want her to go it alone.

Why not just join and attend the Melkite Church regularly?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Though I’m a cradle Byzantine, I was raised bi-ritual, so to speak. My mother’s family is much larger and they are faithful Latin Catholics. Personally, I feel that I benefitted tremendously from experiencing the liturgy, devotions and traditions of both.

 

[Optimus_Prime]

Hi Tom,

I think that would be disruptive for my two younger kids. Long story but shortly after coming into the Church we ended up with a new, extremely dissident pastor. So after three years of doing everything we could canonically do we left for a wonder parish in a nearby town. My kids do attend the school at the parish we left… thankfully the pastor is leaving in June.

It would represent a loss for these two children and I would likely be confusing. Also complicating this is I am discerning a call to the diaconate (which my wife has encouraged and in fact initiated the discussion). But if I thought it would not be disruptive for the kids I would make the move - of course we need to see if we fit in culturally as well.

 

[Optimus_Prime]

That is encouraging to hear, ByzCathCantor!

 

[Tomdstone]

Hi Tom,

I think that would be disruptive for my two younger kids.

But why? There are many children who attend the Roman Catholic Latin rite schools, but attend the Byzantine Churches.

 

[babochka]

But why? There are many children who attend the Roman Catholic Latin rite schools, but attend the Byzantine Churches.

Yes. My siblings and I are examples of this. We understood both very well, and were never confused. My priest’s children also attend a Roman Catholic school. Children’s minds are very flexible. I think you (OP) might be over-thinking this.

 

[dixieagle]

My husband is Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) and I am Roman Catholic, both originally from New England. As we have lived in the deep South for decades, we belong to a Roman Catholic parish, as there is no Byzantine Church within several hours.

We have attended Divine Liturgy when visiting my husband’s home town, and often when we are visiting an area with a Byzantine church. Our girls (who are actually Byzantine) were chrismated when they were little, though they were baptized, with permission, in our local Roman Catholic church; they would have been older than we were comfortable with in order to have them baptized in their Dad’s church (we got home only 1-2 times/year, as we live about 1400 miles away.)

Both girls went to our local Catholic parish school, and had the opportunity to enlighten their classmates about Byzantine Catholicism when time came for confirmation in 8th grade and they were already confirmed. At times when they have lived in other parts of the country, they have both enjoyed the opportunity to attend Divine Liturgy, as there were Byzantine parishes. They both love icons, wear three bar crosses, and are very much “at home” in Byzantine or Roman Catholic parishes.

I would just do your best to explain to your little one that Catholicism (which, itself, means “universal”) has many different, beautiful manifestations and traditions. I would see this as an opportunity to introduce them to this rich diversity, rather than as a problem.

God bless!

 

[5Loaves]

Our family came into the Church from Protestantism 5 years ago. Actually I am technically a revert. **My wife was raised Orthodox and entered the Church as a “Greek” Catholic as the rite calls it. **

Do you happen to know which Greek/Byzantine Catholic Church your wife is actually enrolled in? Greek Catholic is a generic term for Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine liturgical rite, distinguishing us from Roman/Latin Catholics.

…Anyway we went to the local Melkite Church on Sunday (which we frequented years ago when consider Catholicism but chickened out at the time). Anyway, it was amazing and my kids loved it too as they are very comfortable and familiar with the Divine Liturgy. We are happy to split our time.

… How do I keep our little one from perceiving this as mom being separate (in some sense) from us?

Now my question: Do any of you integrate eastern and western spirituality into your domestic church? Other than saying the Jesus Prayer during our family prayers and having an Icon corner, which we do, I would love advice.

…I guess my questions boil down this way: How do we maintain a healthy bi-ritual home/Church life and spirituality without confusing our kids or alienating each other? My wife really needs this but I don’t want her to go it alone.

There are a lot of things you can do in your home that would support you as Catholics and incorporate practices of Eastern Christians. One simple thing would be to “fast” on Wednesdays and Fridays, and whenever the fasts occur in preparation for major Feasts. Looking at the Melkite calendar, it looks like they have modest fasting of just abstaining from meat on ordinary Wednesdays and Fridays.

You can do morning and evening prayers from the Melkite prayer books, or any other Orthodox or Eastern Catholic prayer book. If your Melkite parish doesn’t sell them a local Orthodox Church likely does. You can look on line and read about the saints of the day. There are apps that will send you the prayers, too. I have a set of oversize “Icon Flash Cards” of the 12 Great Feasts which I use with adults, too. I got those from St Joseph School for Boys Bookstore. They have the icon on the front. On the back is a description of the icon and of the Feast and the troparion and kontakion.

Some of these leaflets might be useful. Your parish may already have copies.

If you’re anywhere near Phoenix the Eparchy of Phoenix is having their annual Myrrh Bearers Women Retreat for women and girls in June. I’m Russian Greek Catholic and they were very welcoming to me. One need not be Ruthenian to participate. Bishop Gerald is a wonderful bishop and this is an opportunity to worship and recreate with other Eastern Catholic females of all ages and spend time with the bishop. (It was thanks to babochka that I knew about this Retreat and I and another woman from my parish were able to go last year. )

Since your wife was raised Orthodox she must have ideas about how her family lived their faith at home. Those would be the same for Eastern Catholics.

 

[Brendan]

But why? There are many children who attend the Roman Catholic Latin rite schools, but attend the Byzantine Churches.

I agree, I’m Roman, but I grew up in an area with both a Ruthenain and a Roman Catholic parishes.

My Catholic grade school class was about 1/4 Byzantine. They came to school Masses, and a number of ‘sleep-overs’ at friends houses involved going to DL with them on Sunday. Or they would come to Mass with us. Nobody thought much of it.

And even now, I live in an area with a very large Chaledean population. There are two such parishes within an easy drive.

My children are familiar with the liturgy, I try and take them several times a year.

 

[Vico]

…

I guess my questions boil down this way: How do we maintain a healthy bi-ritual home/Church life and spirituality without confusing our kids or alienating each other? My wife really needs this but I don’t want her to go it alone.

Latin Canon Law:Can. 111

§1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the ritual Church to which the father belongs.
§2. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another ritual Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.
Can. 112
§1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another ritual Church sui iuris:

1º a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2º a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the ritual Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;
3º before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.
§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.
​

 

[Optimus_Prime]

But why? There are many children who attend the Roman Catholic Latin rite schools, but attend the Byzantine Churches.

Because they are in a healthy parish with excellent priests that they love. Our journey into the Church has been plagued by dissident priests ruining our parish and forcing us to move to protect our kids. Forcing change on kids who have had enough change already seems wrong. They are sensitive and are attached so I think an immediate change, rather than a slow transition would be cruel.

I appreciate your suggestion though and wish we could make a quick, smooth transition. They will remain in the Latin rite school… well one of them will at least.

 

[Optimus_Prime]

Do you happen to know which Greek/Byzantine Catholic Church your wife is actually enrolled in? Greek Catholic is a generic term for Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine liturgical rite, distinguishing us from Roman/Latin Catholics.

She never did enroll since we settled and enrolled as a family in the parish where we converted. When she enrolls I am sure it will be the Melkite Church. The only other option is a Ukrainian Church, which would be fine, but it seems to have very limited English usage in the Liturgy, if any at all.

There are a lot of things you can do in your home that would support you as Catholics and incorporate practices of Eastern Christians. One simple thing would be to “fast” on Wednesdays and Fridays, and whenever the fasts occur in preparation for major Feasts. Looking at the Melkite calendar, it looks like they have modest fasting of just abstaining from meat on ordinary Wednesdays and Fridays.

You can do morning and evening prayers from the Melkite prayer books, or any other Orthodox or Eastern Catholic prayer book. If your Melkite parish doesn’t sell them a local Orthodox Church likely does. You can look on line and read about the saints of the day. There are apps that will send you the prayers, too. I have a set of oversize “Icon Flash Cards” of the 12 Great Feasts which I use with adults, too. I got those from St Joseph School for Boys Bookstore. They have the icon on the front. On the back is a description of the icon and of the Feast and the troparion and kontakion.

Some of these leaflets might be useful. Your parish may already have copies.

If you’re anywhere near Phoenix the Eparchy of Phoenix is having their annual Myrrh Bearers Women Retreat for women and girls in June. I’m Russian Greek Catholic and they were very welcoming to me. One need not be Ruthenian to participate. Bishop Gerald is a wonderful bishop and this is an opportunity to worship and recreate with other Eastern Catholic females of all ages and spend time with the bishop. (It was thanks to babochka that I knew about this Retreat and I and another woman from my parish were able to go last year. )

Since your wife was raised Orthodox she must have ideas about how her family lived their faith at home. Those would be the same for Eastern Catholics.

Thank you! This is very helpful. Sadly we are not near Phoenix. We are New Englanders.

 

[malphono]

She never did enroll since we settled and enrolled as a family in the parish where we converted. When she enrolls I am sure it will be the Melkite Church. The only other option is a Ukrainian Church, which would be fine, but it seems to have very limited English usage in the Liturgy, if any at all.

Beyond language considerations, there are some differences between the Constantinopolitan and Slavic Byzantine usages. The Melkite usage is of the former and, while not identical, is much closer to the Greek Orthodox.

 

[Optimus_Prime]

Beyond language considerations, there are some differences between the Constantinopolitan and Slavic Byzantine usages. The Melkite usage is of the former and, while not identical, is much closer to the Greek Orthodox.

We got that sense about the Melkite usage. It felt close to home for her and the ample use of Greek was a comfort (she is Greek). I just think, culturally, Greeks and Arabs are closer as well - which will be more comfortable for my kids. Not that it should be the primary concern.

 

[Vico]

She never did enroll since we settled and enrolled as a family in the parish where we converted. …

Assuming she was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church (rather than a Catholic or reformed) and then made a profession of faith in a Catholic Church, then at that time she would automatically, by canon law, be enrolled in the corresponding eastern Catholic church sui iuris. So that would be the Greek Catholic Church which is of these fourteen of the Constantinople tradition:

Melkite, Byzantine of Italy, Ukrainian, Ruthenian (Byzantine in USA), Slovak, Hungarian, Krizivci (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro), Romanian, Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Belorussian, Russian.

 

[Optimus_Prime]

Assuming she was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church (rather than a Catholic or reformed) and then made a profession of faith in a Catholic Church, then at that time she would automatically, by canon law, be enrolled in the corresponding eastern Catholic church sui iuris. So that would be the Greek Catholic Church which is of these fourteen of the Constantinople tradition:

Melkite, Byzantine of Italy, Ukrainian, Ruthenian (Byzantine in USA), Slovak, Hungarian, Krizivci (Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro), Romanian, Albanian, Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Belorussian, Russian.

So that means she is enrolled specifically in that Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (which has no churches in America)? Do you know if there is a simple mechanism for her to be enrolled in another one of the fourteen - such as the Melkite Church?

 

[malphono]

So that means she is enrolled specifically in that Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (which has no churches in America)?

Yes and yes.

Do you know if there is a simple mechanism for her to be enrolled in another one of the fourteen - such as the Melkite Church?

In practical terms, there’s no problem. Speak with the Melkite pastor and go from there. There are limited circumstances where a specific Church is indicated, including Matrimony, Holy Orders, and religious profession, and even then dispensations are easily granted.

 

[rfournier103]

Do you know how many Catholics that are married to Protestants would love to have your problem?

 

[Optimus_Prime]

Do you know how many Catholics that are married to Protestants would love to have your problem?

I am sure there are plenty - I know some of them. Please don’t get me wrong - I realize I am very blessed that we made this journey together and are both Catholic. I do realize there is heartache for those in mixed religious marriages and certainly do not want to put my situation in the same category as them - it is entirely different. I had a Jewish parent and a Catholic parent - believe me, I get it. Still the same I do need to navigate my family’s particular situation with care - which is why I sought advice on this forum.