Byzantines and Plenary indulgence

[Ghosty]

Ematouk: Well, here’s the stickler, and the reason why quotes like those above are being provided: forgiveness of sins doesn’t happen apart from Sanctity. Neither the Orthodox nor the Catholics hold to the view of “imputation of Grace”, the view that we are “snow covered dung-hills” who remain dirty but are “covered over” by the Grace of God. Where there is God’s Mercy, there is real Holiness within the person, and the real Presence of the Trinity within them. When God forgives, He fills us up with Himself; in fact we could even say that He forgives BY filling us up with Himself.

So when we pray for God’s Mercy on the dead, we are indeed praying for their Sanctification by definition. We are praying that they will be filled with His Life, and their sins will be washed away. Remember, God’s Grace doesn’t merely pushed aside or overlook a still-existing sin, it puts it to death and fills us up in its place.

This is more implicit many Byzantine writings (at least in this context), rather than explicit as in Latin writings, but it’s necessarily implied and not merely a hopeful reading-in of details. If forgiveness of sins doesn’t imply filling with Divine Life, then our entire Sacramental system is a lie.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Woodstock]

Thankyou for these posts. But I still do not see “sanctification” or “making holier” of dead persons by the liturgy of the departed in Orthodox teaching.

I don’t understand your distinction.

A man died without faith or baptism in a drunken bout. He was not saved. His wife devoted all of her charitable acts on earth to the salvation of her husband’s soul. She was granted a vision which assured her that she had gained her husband’s salvation.

This sounds exactly like the concept of purgatory to me with the exception of the west not allowing for the salvation of the damned.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother ematouk,

Brothers Woodstock and Ghosty have said it all.

I would just like to add that to the Orthodox, salvation is measured in holiness. We share in God’s holiness (i.e., sanctification or theosis) and thereby we are saved. Salvation and holiness go hand in hand in Orthodox (and Catholic) teaching, East, West, Orient and every place in between where the apostolic Tradition is preached and believed. One cannot have one without the other.

When God grants a person His Mercy for salvation, He imparts in that person His very own Holiness for the sake of that person’s salvation.

With brother Woodstock, I do not see the distinction you are making. Perhaps you can elaborate, or perhaps we have already answered your questions.

I will provide you with some quotes from our common Fathers in the faith next week.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ematouk]

Ok. I can see what you are saying. I guess it is not explicitly said by the byzantine tradition, but merely implied.

But, still there is ‘iffy’ business in this area. Because we do not pray with certainty that God will have mercy on them, but we hope. We do not know God will sanctify them, but we hope. I think it needs to be emphasised that it is God who does the sanctifying, not our prayers, not the mass, not the rosary, etc… It is God who may listen to this and may do as He wishes in accordance with His will.

Thats how I’m starting to see this issue. Also can anyone answer my other questions above on post #113 .

Thankyou so much everyone and God bless you all.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother ematouk,

Sorry for the long delay. Other threads occupied my time, and I was not sure if you were reading this thread anymore.

But, still there is ‘iffy’ business in this area. Because we do not pray with certainty that God will have mercy on them, but we hope. We do not know God will sanctify them, but we hope. I think it needs to be emphasised that it is God who does the sanctifying, not our prayers, not the mass, not the rosary, etc… It is God who may listen to this and may do as He wishes in accordance with His will

Your concern is appreciated, but there is no need for it. The Liturgies of all the apostolic Churches already emphasize that the cause of our prayers for the dead is hope, not certainty. Further, the prayer of the Church to sanctify is ALWAYS TO GOD. However, it is always to be remembered that we indeed have a share in the responsibility of our own santification/theosis, as well as that of others. And this is done through our good works and prayers.

Also can anyone answer my other questions above on post #113

The next post from me will address the rest of your post#113. Thank you for your patience.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother ematouk,

Ok, now im a bit confused. Sorry I’m a bit ignorant of this, but if you say it is the penitential act that increases holiness, then how does the indulgence actually work in the case of the dead?

Like how is the person who is in purgatory “made holier” by an indulgence gained on Earth by a loved one? I ask this because the dead person didnt do anything. I fail to see how they did any penitential acts. Sorry ur statement has just muddled it up in my mind.

As already mentioned (sorry you didn’t catch it), an indulgence does not make a person holier, neither on earth nor in Purgatory. As already mentioned, an indulgence is defined as the lessening of punishment due to sin, not the increase of holiness. It is penitential/holy acts (e.g., almsgiving, prayer, visiting the sick, loving our neighbor AND enemy, etc.) that increase holiness for us and for others (whether on earth or in that third State after death).

As already mentioned, what a person PRIMARILY gains through his prayers/suffrage on earth for a loved one in Purgatory is NOT an indulgence. The indulgence is a fringe benefit – the TRUE and PRIMARY benefit is increase in holiness. Here’s how it works (according to Latin soteriology – though I’m sure much of the explanation will be familiar to you). First, let me give five foundational points agreed by all apostolic Churches:

1. When we sin, God punishes us in order that we may share in his holiness. When we go through the punishment, we increase in holiness.
2. When we repent, God punishes us along with forgiving our sins.
3. ALL of us sin and need to make reparation for sin in the form of penance. When we do penance contritely and voluntarily (whether given by the priest or self-imposed), we increase in holiness. God looks at that and the punishment He would otherwise mete out on us for the sake of our holiness will be lessened or cancelled. In other words, God sees through our sincere actions that we are sorry for our sins and, to use the language of the Old Testament, He stays His hand. What God just did was grant you an indulgence from the punishment He would have meted out had you not done contrite and voluntary penance.
4. God has given his Church both the authority to determine punishment that will satisfy God’s Justice AND the authority to grant indulgence from that punishment.
5. We obtain holiness by God’s Grace.

Now, let’s apply these five points to explain the Latin soteriological understanding. Take Christian sinner A1 and Christian sinner A2 who are alive on earth. A1 sins, confesses, and makes reparation for his sins. A2 sins, confesses, and dies WITHOUT making reparation for his sins. While A1 is making reparation for his sins, he prays for the soul of A2, and offers up his works and suffering for the sake of A2’s soul. Eventually, A1 completes his reparation (in other words, God’s Justice is satisfied) through his good works and prayers with a contrite heart. He has now gained indulgence for the punishment God or the Church would otherwise have meted out if he had not performed those penitential/good works. In other words (and this is key): the measure of holiness one would have gained by undergoing the chastisement, has instead been obtained in virtue of penitential good works. In either case, we obtain holiness by God’s Grace. In Latin parlance, the effect of God’s Grace upon the repentant soul who demonstrates evidence of contrition through penance and other good works (resulting in increased holiness) is called MERIT (and from now on, I will be using the word “merit”).

As mentioned in a previous post, the grace one obtains through one’s good works or penance that increases our holiness (IOW, merit) is always applied to the satisfaction of reparation for one’s own sins FIRST. We have assumed A1 has done sufficient reparation (satisfied God’s Justice) for his sins. At this point, the merits (or Grace for the sake of holiness) of A1 can begin to be applied to A2. A2’s punishment for the sake of holiness is now lessened (i.e., he has gained an indulgence, a lessening of punishment) because he has obtained that holiness by another means – the application of A1’s merits.

In effect, it is not that indulgence gains holiness. Rather, it is that holiness gains indulgence.

Has that helped you out in your understanding?

The same is true for the mass. You say that Orthodox Christians believe the liturgies for the departed sanctify the souls of the departed and make them holier. But I have never come across this in my church, nor in my reading. I havent really studied this topic in depth though, but would you please point me to an Orthodox source which confirms this? I was unaware of this belief. I was always told the prayers for the dead are to give the dead person comfort and confidence before the throne of God on the Day of Judgement much like how Paul prayed for Onesiphorus “that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day” (2 Timothy 1:18).

I believe we have already alleviated your concerns on this topic.

]
I agree 100% with this. I very much like the Coptic Orthodox Church. I liked Pope kyrillos and I like Pope Shenouda. I just await the day when us EO sign the document of communion with the OO. Anyways thats my personal oppinion - I dont want to go off topic.

Thank you for your support of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Penitential spirituality is common among all the Oriental Orthodox Churches. I hope you can also begin to appreciate the penitential spirituality of the Latin Catholic Church.

CONT’d

 

[mardukm]

CONT’d

Ahh, yes I heard about this. Like Pope John Paul issued one for the Jubilee year. I always wondered, why doesnt the Pope just apply these indulgences to everyone and thus eliminate the need for purgatory. Wouldnt that be great? I heard his vault of indulgences is unlimited due to the overabundent merit of Christ. So technically cant he just apply it permanently to everyone? (I know u’ll probably be laughing at me because to a Catholic it probably sounds like a funny question, but it is honest)

If I was laughing (and I’m not ), it would not be because I am Catholic – it would be because I was Orthodox (in communion with Rome, that is ) If the Pope applied the superabundant merits of Christ freely to everyone – and remember, merit is for the sake of increasing holiness – then we would no longer need to work out our salvation, which would make God a liar. There would no longer be a need for theosis. We would be divinized without deserving it at all, our free will no longer having value. There would no longer be a need for God to chastise us, which would make Him a liar once again, for it contradicts his sacred Word (see Hebrews). Is that what you really want?

For this and other reasons, plenary indulgences MUST and CAN ONLY be obtained through the performance of penance and other good works.

I agree 100% with synergy. But I misunderstood what “Merit” was. It sounds very strange to me. I don’t understand why the Roman Church cant just use the word “grace”. lol. And I thought learning Calvinist terminology was overwhelming.

See post #114.

In all honesty, I havent really ever heard any anti-Catholic comments in my church or any of the Orthodox Churches I’ve attended.

Then you’re in a good, spiritually edifying environment.

I’ve seen a few anti-Catholic articles on the net and a few anti-Catholic forum posters though. But if it comes up, I could point them to this forum…

The effort would be appreciated.

it still sounds a bit strange that the terminology developed.

Like us EO have been seperated from the OO for over 1600 years and yet I can easily understand Coptic Orthodox articles of faith and perfectly understand what they are saying if I attend their bible studies. But as for the Latins, who have only been seperated from us for about 1000 years, their theological language seems completely alien to me.

The theological language of the Church has developed throughout the centuries. The terms homoousion and theotokos (et al) developed in response to controversy; just as the language of the Latin Church (after the separation of Easterns and Westerns occurred) developed in response to controversy. Not only that, but terms can take on new meaning. For instance, in the early Church, a distinction between the Essence and Energies of God is evident among the Eastern and Oriental Fathers, but it is only in the Eastern (not Oriental) Tradition where you find the language of “Essence IS God and Energy IS God.” This language developed during the Barlaam/Palamas controversy, so it is something foreign to the Oriental Tradition which did not go through that controversy… Thus, though I can understand that the theological language of the Westerns might seem strange to you, I don’t understand how or why you would think it is strange that terminology – even meanings of words - HAS developed (since that is very normal for the Church).

The EOC is more basic in its theological development than the Latin Church and the Oriental Church is more basic in its theological development than the Eastern Church (though, ironically, the Oriental Church is more accepting of theological development than the Eastern Church, which makes the Oriental Church more similar to the Western Church in that particular way). You might understand the language of Oriental Orthodoxy, but it is not always the case that Oriental Orthodoxy will easily understand the terminology of Eastern Orthodoxy (or Latin Catholicism)– and that is because of internal developments within our individual Churches.

Does the Catholic church believe a person can repent after death?

Definitely not.

Can someone in purgatory - from the suffering - turn away from God and fall into hell? Earthly chastisement can bring us closer to God or cause us to fall away, this is the test of our faith. Is it the same for purgatory? If not, then why not?

All souls in Purgatory are bound for heaven. It is not uncommon to hear Catholics speak of Purgatory as being part of heaven, and the fires of Purgatory being the fires of the Holy Spirit (which is actually theologically acceptable to the Eastern/Oriental mind).

One would logically only run into the problem you are proposing when one attempts to define the fires of Purgatory as a physical fire, or the suffering of Purgatory as a physical pain – for then it would indeed be no different from earthly chastisement. Fortunately, the Latin Catholic Church has left that facet of the doctrine undefined, undogmatized and unexplained. It is theologoumenon.

There is one last very important thing to consider. From what I’ve read of the Latin teaching, the chastisement or punishment souls in Purgatory experience for the sake of holiness comes with the knowledge that they have ALREADY won the prize(as St. Paul states). That is the HUGE difference between someone suffering on earth and someone suffering in Purgatory. So it is quite impossible for a soul to renege in Purgatory.

God bless you both for helping me understand.

God bless you for responding to the Spirit’s prompting to understanding and patience.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk