C.S. Lewis: What were his disagreements with the Catholic Church?

[GKC]

That is a shame. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation. If not a fly then I would have at least liked to have read about it.

Not that I would have understood anything that those two may have decided to talk about anyways.

By the way GKC, I don’t think you pushed the right buttons on your friend request thing. Are you trying to tell me something

God bless

Yes. That I haven’t a clue which buttons to push. I have no idea if I’ve ever successfully agreed to a friends request. If so, I apologize to all. I always meant to do so.

GKC, clueless.

Added:

I went back and tried again, twice. I still can’t get your name to add to the list. I note that I did seem to get t right on 5 others. Anyone know what buttons to push?

 

[GeorgeSword]

Tolkien broke the relationship.

There wasn’t really any ‘breaking off argument’ or anything along those lines. Their contact with one another lessened, partly because of Lewis’ marriage and partly due to other matters. They maintained some occasional contact, though, and Tolkien’s wife, Edith, was in the hospital at the same time while Joy was receiving cancer treatment and they befriended one another. Tolkien attended Lewis’ funeral as well, and you can read a description of it he wrote to his son, Christopher, in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

 

[GKC]

There wasn’t really any ‘breaking off argument’ or anything along those lines. Their contact with one another lessened, partly because of Lewis’ marriage and partly due to other matters. They maintained some occasional contact, though, and Tolkien’s wife, Edith, was in the hospital at the same time while Joy was receiving cancer treatment and they befriended one another. Tolkien attended Lewis’ funeral as well, and you can read a description of it he wrote to his son, Christopher, in the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

And moving it is (pp. 341-342, THE LETTERS OF J.R.R. TOLKIEN).

And Charles WIlliams is mentioned as a barrier.

Lewis always felt the separation keenly.

GKC

Added: In a letter to his daughter Priscilla, Tolkien mentioned he had a Mass said for Lewis, and that he served at it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A couple of years ago I read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis and remember thinking, “is this man describing purgatory?” as his protagonist journeyed to heaven.

I just finished C.S. Lewis’ *Letters to Malcolm *(thanks for the recommendation GKC ) where he flat out states that, despite the traditional Reformation arguments against it, he believes in Purgatory. He then goes on to give a psychological (not scriptural) defense of the doctrine. In that book he also defends prayers for what he calls, “the dead” and a few other distinct Catholic beliefs. He talks highly of men such as Francis of Assisi and Thomas Aquinas. In another book of his (The World’s Last Night ) he credits G.K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man as the single greatest Christian Apologetic work ever done.

All of this got me thinking; why did C.S. Lewis never join the Catholic Church? Does anyone know what his disagreements were with the Catholic Church that kept him from converting? I would be interested to know.

God bless

He explains why in an essay, not dated, but seemingly late. There is a very good discussion of why not in Christianity Today, in a review of Joseph Peace’s book on him.​

For a Catholic opinion:

• [http://www.ignatius.com/PressRelease/CSLewisChurchPressRelSept2003.pdf (http://www.ignatius.com/PressRelease/CSLewisChurchPressRelSept2003.pdf)

For a very perceptive discussion by a Protestant:

• [C.S. Lewis and Mother Kirk (http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2004/006/12.30.html)

The essay is on the CT site, but it can’t be read in its entirety unless one is a subscriber - the link above, OTOH, gives all five pages of it.

An equally good question would be, “Why was Lewis a Protestant ?” That is the approach of the essay just mentioned. He is also very Evangelical - but I don’t think I recall any mention of this by Catholics.

To honour Saints is not foreign to Anglicanism:

• the 1662 Book of Common Prayer includes a Calendar with feasts of Saints, as do its successors;
• Pre-Reformation Saints are part of the Anglican past shared with Rome
• Francis of Assisi at least was much admired in the “higher” parts of Victorian Anglicanism - he is not a new-comer to Anglicanism.

There is a solid body of Anglican theology explaining & exploring the Eucharist Presence, & Anglican Mariology has a history of at least 350 years. So Anglican belief is not exactly surprising. None of these topics represents the entire spread of Anglicanism - those of Reformed sympathies would have no time for them - but neither are they as foreign to Anglicanism as a Catholic with no prior knowledge of Anglicanism might think they would be.

As for his not becoming “RC” - Catholics, surely, realise, even if nobody else does, that conversion has nothing to do with brains or theological sympathies. All the brilliance in the world does not make a man a Christian, not of any kind. If it did, then God help us thickos ! The best refutation of that idea in 1 Cor.1 - God saves by the “folly” of the Cross - not by the cleverness of man. The Gospel agrees: for it was the learned scribes who rejected Jesus, & the “rabble” who believed.

Conversion has everything to do with God’s saving grace - learning is not relevant to saving grace; it can even be an obstacle. Having RC sympathies does not make people Catholic: it never could, does not now, & never will - God Alone does so. God makes Catholics - not our sympathies, interests, intelligence, arguments, or any such thing. To deny that, is to degrade Catholicism to being a mere natural religion, with only the appearance of being Christian; it makes Catholic salvation into the salvation of man by his own native powers, without need of God & Christ.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

He was actually Irish

He was an Ulster Protestant, no less ​

 

[GKC]

“He explains why in an essay, not dated, but seemingly late.”

Which essay?

GKC

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…

As I said, this is a common subject, and I’ve done this before, and better. I’m in a great hurry, right now. But one point I would insist on. Lewis took his stand on principle, not on prejudice, background, or personal convenience. To suggest otherwise is to pollute the waters of the discourse.

GKC

Thanks for saying that. If his stand were not on principle, it would be much easier to “explain away”. A Lewis with no reason for staying Protestant but the excuses you’ve dismissed would be a much smaller, much less Christian Lewis.​

Excuses don’t to be faced - principles, OTOH, do.

The question would certainly be easier to answer, if his own essay were in the public domain…

 

[GKC]

Thanks for saying that. If his stand were not on principle, it would be much easier to “explain away”. A Lewis with no reason for staying Protestant but the excuses you’ve dismissed would be a much smaller, much less Christian Lewis.​

Excuses don’t to be faced - principles, OTOH, do.

The question would certainly be easier to answer, if his own essay were in the public domain…

I have often felt such explanations have attempted to explain away Lewis, by reducing his position to a non-rational one.

And I am still curious as to which essay you mean. I might have a clue, but I’m looking for confirmation.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

To honour Saints is not foreign to Anglicanism:

I freely confess my ignorance of Anglicanism however I did know that the honoring of the saints was not foreign to the Anglican communion. I was, however, not aware that belief in Purgatory and prayers for the dead was common knowledge in regards to Anglican beliefs.

If Lewis would have said he honored the saints and left it at that, I probably wouldn’t have gave it a second thought. If he would have made a glancing comment about this saint or that saint, my curiosity probably would have stayed dormant. However these things together with him declaring that he believed in Purgatory and that he prayed for the dead caused me to wonder.

Perhaps it was ignorance, but what better way to solve that than to ask?

I assure you that my question did not arise from the attitude that C.S. Lewis was intelligent and therefore he should naturally be Catholic. I knew before I asked the question that, the intelligent man that he was, had a reason, some dispute be it doctrinal or not, that kept him from converting. I was simply curious as to the reason.

God bless you

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“He explains why in an essay, not dated, but seemingly late.”

Which essay?

GKC

It’s in one of the printed collections - there are not a few, as you certainly will know. I’ll have to look it out. I though you were citing it a few posts ago, when you mentioned the issue of belief.​

It really would be fairer to us the great unwashed if his essays were printed in collections of which the contents did not overlap.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I freely confess my ignorance of Anglicanism however I did know that the honoring of the saints was not foreign to the Anglican communion. I was, however, not aware that belief in Purgatory and prayers for the dead was common knowledge in regards to Anglican beliefs.

If Lewis would have said he honored the saints and left it at that, I probably wouldn’t have gave it a second thought. If he would have made a glancing comment about this saint or that saint, my curiosity probably would have stayed dormant. However these things together with him declaring that he believed in Purgatory and that he prayed for the dead caused me to wonder.

Perhaps it was ignorance, but what better way to solve that than to ask?

I assure you that my question did not arise from the attitude that C.S. Lewis was intelligent and therefore he should naturally be Catholic. I knew before I asked the question that, the intelligent man that he was, had a reason, some dispute be it doctrinal or not, that kept him from converting. I was simply curious as to the reason.

God bless you

Sorry - that was addressed partly to you, & partly to People In General.​

The intelligence question keeps coming up all the time on the forums - in posts by Catholics. So I took the opportunity to point out that & why it simply cannot do certain things. Sometimes we know things, but don’t put them together Apologies for the tone.

 

[GeorgeSword]

Someone mentioned Purgatory… have a look at this: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm
It’s also quite refreshing for someone reading Lewis to see a Protestant calling Mary the Blessed Virgin. I think that if he had lived longer Lewis would likely have become Catholic, particularly when female priests became allowed in the Church of England. This is something he had written spoken and written against.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Someone mentioned Purgatory… have a look at this: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm

Yep that quote came from Lewis’ Letters To Malcolm which is what caused me to ask this question.

Lewis would likely have become Catholic, particularly when female priests became allowed in the Church of England. This is something he had written spoken and written against.

This would make for an interesting thread (based purely speculation of course) on how Lewis would have handled this and if it would have swayed him any which way. We have to be careful though. Even if Lewis left the Anglican Church (which of course he never did so this is all speculation) it wouldn’t necessarily mean he would have become Catholic the next day. He could have, for all we know, became Orthodox. Or maybe he would have shocked us all and became a Scientologist

God bless you

 

[GKC]

Someone mentioned Purgatory… have a look at this: angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm
It’s also quite refreshing for someone reading Lewis to see a Protestant calling Mary the Blessed Virgin. I think that if he had lived longer Lewis would likely have become Catholic, particularly when female priests became allowed in the Church of England. This is something he had written spoken and written against.

The OP began by mentioning he had read LETTERS FOR MALCOLM. That is not the only place where Lewis mentions his acceptance of a concept of purgation; you can also find it in the COLLECTED LETTERS (as in a July 1959 letter found in Vol. III, p. 1064). There he uses the same dentist chair comparison that he uses in LETTERS TO MALCOM, 4 years later.

But one thing should be kept in mind. Lewis’ acceptance of purgation can’t necessarily be proven by LETTERS FOR MALCOLM alone. The voice speaking in those letters is a fictional one; the letters are constructs, for an epistolary exposition of doctrine.

That being said, Lewis was an advocate of auricular confession, of purgation, of the Real Presence, and a number of other points consistent with Anglo-Catholicism, though he himself did not consciously identify with any particular part of Anglicanism.

There is no reason to suppose, and much reason to doubt, that Lewis would have become Roman Catholic, as noted (for example) in the essay that GoG linked to, above, his"Priestesses in the Church" notwithstanding .

GKC

Added: I am, as Lewis was, an Anglican, and as a RC you would refer to us both as protestant. It would surprise you to learn that we not only refer to the BVM as the BVM, but (in my parish) also have a Mary shrine and sing the Angelus (or the Regina Coeli, as appropriate)? Or commend our prayer requests to her?

 

[GKC]

Yep that quote came from Lewis’ Letters To Malcolm which is what caused me to ask this question.

This would make for an interesting thread (based purely speculation of course) on how Lewis would have handled this and if it would have swayed him any which way. We have to be careful though. Even if Lewis left the Anglican Church (which of course he never did so this is all speculation) it wouldn’t necessarily mean he would have become Catholic the next day. He could have, for all we know, became Orthodox. Or maybe he would have shocked us all and became a Scientologist

God bless you

Now, now.

GKC

 

[GKC]

It’s in one of the printed collections - there are not a few, as you certainly will know. I’ll have to look it out. I though you were citing it a few posts ago, when you mentioned the issue of belief.​

It really would be fairer to us the great unwashed if his essays were printed in collections of which the contents did not overlap.

You may address that point to Walter Hooper. It does make for increased sales.

But I’m thinking you might be thinking of “Christian Reunion”, first published posthumously in 1990, in CHRISTIAN REUNION, a collection of essays. If so, and without any prejudice to any particular point in it, one way or another, it is one of the problematic works that Hooper introduced to the world, not known until he did so.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You may address that point to Walter Hooper. It does make for increased sales.

But I’m thinking you might be thinking of “Christian Reunion”, first published posthumously in 1990, in CHRISTIAN REUNION, a collection of essays. If so, and without any prejudice to any particular point in it, one way or another, it is one of the problematic works that Hooper introduced to the world, not known until he did so.

GKC

And what does the letter state as Lewis’ disagreements with the Catholic Church? Just what you have said; authority?

God bless you

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Added: I am, as Lewis was, an Anglican, and as a RC you would refer to us both as protestant. It would surprise you to learn that we not only refer to the BVM as the BVM, but (in my parish) also have a Mary shrine and sing the Angelus (or the Regina Coeli, as appropriate)? Or commend our prayer requests to her?

I don’t remember ever reading anything by Lewis on the subject, but did he consider himself a Protestant?

God bless

 

[Writer]

Yep that quote came from Lewis’ Letters To Malcolm which is what caused me to ask this question.

This would make for an interesting thread (based purely speculation of course) on how Lewis would have handled this and if it would have swayed him any which way. We have to be careful though. Even if Lewis left the Anglican Church (which of course he never did so this is all speculation) it wouldn’t necessarily mean he would have become Catholic the next day. He could have, for all we know, became Orthodox. Or maybe he would have shocked us all and became a Scientologist

God bless you

Jospeh Pearce has a good book on Lewis entitled “C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church”. I’d recommend it. Also, the essay mentioned earlier in regards to concerns with the Anglican Church might be the “Fern-seed and Elephants”. It’s a good essay, but I don’t believe it’s still in print.

If anyone has already mentioned this… There is a rumor that Lewis converted to the Catholic Church on his deathbed when he had a meeting with Tolkien and his son Father John Tolkien (of whom there are some disturbing news stories from a few years ago). I asked Joseph Pearce about this, and he says that unfortunately this tale has no truth to it. Lewis appears to have died as an Anglican.

 

[GKC]

I don’t remember ever reading anything by Lewis on the subject, but did he consider himself a Protestant?

God bless

Likely he would have, if pressed. But he also would have thought it irrelevant.

He wasn’t perfect…

GKC