CAF Bible Study - James

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nobody said:
I posted this question a couple of years ago on this forum. It still perplexes me:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=69468
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I struggle with doubts, and pray for an increase in faith. The following passage troubles me, because it makes me feel I am stuck in a Catch-22.

James 1:6-8
“But he should ask in faith, not doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed about by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, since he is a man of two minds, unstable in all his ways.”

If you are lacking in faith to begin with, and you pray for faith, you will not receive any because of your lack in faith???I have long concluded that our faith in this particular respect is much more simple than we realize.

Consider it this way. You have asked for faith and wisdom as it is promised here. Would Our Lord lie to us? No. Then you can rest assured of your answer.

I have found that often God’s answer is the perseverance to hang in there while I wait upon His resolution to whatever the matter is. Is that easy for me…not always. I am most definitely a vessel of clay.

I don’t believe that God plays Catch 22 games with us because that doesn’t fit the compassionate and loving God that I see in Jesus. I believe that when God promises graces and we ask for them that He readily opens His hands to us. Remember what Our Lord said.
7: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8: For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9: Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
10: Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11: If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Regarding the above, “if He didn’t plan to bring us through it.”…why, then are there so many suicides and drug addicted people in this world? I find it sooo hard to count it all joy
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.I understand and have been there.

I think that the reason for these things is the very deep and essential loneliness and despair in our society today.

I know for fact that I could not live without God and might very well do away with myself in despair without Him.

Yet I have also felt the hand of an angel over my heart at my darkest moment as I cried in prayer and pain. It was a mystical experience that is very difficult to put into words, but it certainly turned me around and healed me.

May you also find peace and healing in the compassion of Christ.
 
nobody said:
I posted this question a couple of years ago on this forum. It still perplexes me:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=69468
I struggle with doubts, and pray for an increase in faith. The following passage troubles me, because it makes me feel I am stuck in a Catch-22.

James 1:6-8
“But he should ask in faith, not doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed about by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, since he is a man of two minds, unstable in all his ways.”

If you are lacking in faith to begin with, and you pray for faith, you will not receive any because of your lack in faith???
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You have saving grace – we all do. If you use it, you will receive faith. The very act of praying for faith is, in itself an act of faith.
nobody said:
Regarding the above, “if He didn’t plan to bring us through it.”…why, then are there so many suicides and drug addicted people in this world? I find it sooo hard to count it all joy.
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I don’t want to hijack the thread, but you are asking the most difficult question in Christianity – “Why do bad things happen to good people?”

John’s answer in Revelation is that there is a war, between those of the faith and those without faith. Saint Augustine shows us that evil is not a positive thing – it is the absense of good.
 
nobody said:
I posted this question a couple of years ago on this forum. It still perplexes me:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=69468
Regarding the above, “if He didn’t plan to bring us through it.”…why, then are there so many suicides and drug addicted people in this world? I find it sooo hard to count it all joy.
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Nobody:

Jesus never wants us to count another’s suffering as “pure joy” - When Jesus was saw Jerusalem that last time, and he saw a glimpse of how the people of that city would suffer over the next 2000 years, the Gospel said that Jesus stopped and wepted! (Luke 19:41-44 - Luke 13:34-35; Matt 23-37-39)

God wants to bring all of us through all of those things, but to be brought through the trials of this life, we have to trust in Him and His Love and Mercy. When one doesn’t trust in His love and Mercy, one can get into dispair. And, If you are in hell already, and you don’t believe in the eternal hell, suicide can look real atractive as a way of solving your problems.

When I was in my 20 year walkabout, I had had brain surgery that lasted over 18 hours. Afterwards, I develped Spinal Headaches which were so painful I broke 2 morphine pumps trying to get pain relief (someguideline wouldn’t allow enough morphine in injectd to kill the pain) and screamed while in coma (that is unconscious). Never once did I call for a priest or any other minister of the Gospel - I was that far removed from God.

I’m sure that I didn’t call for that help because my heart had really become that heard, and I was really in Satan’s grasp. It’s only God’s Grace and persistance that I’m here.

The people James told to, “Count it all pure joy,” had been fired because they were Christians and their fellow Jews had been refusing to hire them because they had been fired and because they were Christians. Their Landlords had them evicted from their homes because they didn’t have the money to pay the taxes, rent. etc. because they were unemployed because they were Christians. Then, The Romans arrested them for Vagrancy/Violation of Curfew because they didn’ have a place to stay, beacuse they had been fired from their jobs and everyone refused to hire them, because they were Christians.

And, If that wasn’t enough, they were starving because of a FAMINE.

It was in response to the above that the Churches in Greece & Asia Minor sent as much as they could with St. Paul to Jerusalem (Acts 11:29, Rom 15:25-28, Acts 24:17), and that St. Paul risked his life to deliver it.

The Church in Sudan went through worse than that, but we didn’t do nearly as much to help tham as the Churches St. Paul founded did to help these. And, yet, I still heard Archbishop Gasis say this:

Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
James 1:2-4 RSV-CE

If you still can’t buy that, try this:

Consider it a sheer gift, friends, when tests and challenges come at you from all sides. You know that under pressure, your faith-life is forced into the open and shows its true colors. So don’t try to get out of anything prematurely. Let it do its work so you become mature and well-developed, not deficient in any way.James 1:2-4 The Message

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
This is a great thread and study! Just wanted to pass that along, thanks for all of your hard work and posts, everyone, including CM!
 
First of all, thank you CM!

Does anyone wonder if the meaning of ‘faith’ used may be far different than the way we use it today? I have often found it virtually impossible, as a Catholic, to seperate my faith from my actions. I see the waning of my faith when my actions wane, and I experience a deepening of my faith when I take the actions, on faith, that will deepen said faith…it is as though they are like two bodies of water that flow into each other.

When St. James told us to ask, in faith, for Faith, could it be that we are instructed to go forward with our actions (asking, for instance, as an action) with the idea that by doing so our Faith will be deepened, i.e. the grace received from frequent reception of the Sacraments strenghthens (spelling? I am the worst, I must warn you) us in our continual fight against sin and temptation.

Does that make any sense or am I chasing my own tail, figuratively speaking of course?
 
12: Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him.
13: Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
14: but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
15: Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.
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There is a lot in this passage that is worth discussing.

Verse 12 promises help and blessing to those who endure temptations. Remember here that temptation is not sin. In fact resisting temptation actually makes us better at it.

Does this not also tie in with Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26? “Endure to the end…”

Perhaps that is what St. James is saying about counting it all joy. Sort of like when you face a test that you are well prepared for and say to yourself something like, “I can handle this!”

Verses 13-16 are interesting. Has anyone ever heard someone say that even Our Lord was tempted and because of this verse He couldn’t have been God? Weird, I know, but I have heard it from non-Trinitarians.

The problem for them is that they ignore the whole concept of the incarnation. In John 1 what does it say?
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. and then 9: The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. and then 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. and more 18: No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

The unity of the natures of Christ are difficult to comprehend but it is a fact that it is taught in the New Testament.

Anyway…this is very important for us. Don’t we all sometimes think that God cannot possibly understand what we are going through? Well here is the a key to knowing better. Although God cannot be tempted, the human nature of Christ was just like our own and in that respect He could and was tempted. Remember the 40 days in the desert? What about Gethsemane?I think the book of Hebrews offers something that pulls all this together.(Chapter 4:15 & 16) 15: For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16: Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. So rest assured that God does understand. Sometimes I find myself praying. “Lord, I am grateful that you understand me so well, because I need you to help me to be more like you.”

BTW…Want a verse relative to mortal sin? Look at James 1:15.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
15: Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death. I think this verse relates well to what happens if we do not examine ourselves in the mirror clearly “[23] For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
[24] for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.” Sometimes we may give in to our temptations and commit venial sins, but if we ignore them and act like nothing happened, our consciences become dull due to our sins and they get worse. Then we end up committing mortal sins. In order to grow in holiness, we need to do a good examination of conscience and seek the Sacrament of Penance, not just as a cure for mortal sin but as a preventative spiritual medicine for our souls.
 
MTD said:
I can PM you with more. I really need to stay off this thread since I’m a notorious debater and will be sure to get myself entangled in another debate if I’m not careful! :o

Maria
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Maria:

This is Lent, when Catholics & most other Christians are called on, with God’s help, to work on those areas in their lives which God has indicated are sources of sin or stumbling blocks for their brothers and sisters. As you’ve identified debating/controversy as a weak point in yur character that God may want to work with you on, do you think that this debate, where you’ve already shown you can contribute, might be a place where you could do that?

Just for Lent? And, Just for your own growth and the edification of your bothers and sisters?

I really think that you’ll find the growth from this experience will be well worth the discomfort from having to control your urge for controversy.

Know this, my beloved brethren. Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God. James 1:19-20 RSV-CE

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
LSK said:
First of all, thank you CM!

Does anyone wonder if the meaning of ‘faith’ used may be far different than the way we use it today? I have often found it virtually impossible, as a Catholic, to seperate my faith from my actions. I see the waning of my faith when my actions wane, and I experience a deepening of my faith when I take the actions, on faith, that will deepen said faith…it is as though they are like two bodies of water that flow into each other.

When St. James told us to ask, in faith, for Faith, could it be that we are instructed to go forward with our actions (asking, for instance, as an action) with the idea that by doing so our Faith will be deepened, i.e. the grace received from frequent reception of the Sacraments strenghthens (spelling? I am the worst, I must warn you) us in our continual fight against sin and temptation.

Does that make any sense or am I chasing my own tail, figuratively speaking of course?
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Leslie:

What you’ve given is the Pauline definition of Faith, and why there really is no contradiction between St. Paul and St. James. For St. Paul, and for almost all Early Christians, Faith was something that was done with the heart and was active, and wasn’t equivalent to “Belief” at all.

The best simily I can think of is the difference between someone who “believes” that a bridge will hold his weight but refuses to use it to get to the other side and someone who exercises his faith and walks on it to get himself and his friends to the other side.

I think we know which is more like the one you’re talking about and is more like what James woud call “Faith with Works” (James 2:18), and I think we know which one he would say would be “as dead as a body without a spirit”. (James 2:26)

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Traditional_Ang said:
Leslie:

What you’ve given is the Pauline definition of Faith, and why there really is no contradiction between St. Paul and St. James. For St. Paul, and for almost all Early Christians, Faith was something that was done with the heart and was active, and wasn’t equivalent to “Belief” at all.

The best simily I can think of is the difference between someone who “believes” that a bridge will hold his weight but refuses to use it to get to the other side and someone who exercises his faith and walks on it to get himself and his friends to the other side.
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If I may use your analogy, what if a person isn’t sure if the bridge is going to support them, but they cross it anyway, afraid?
 
In James 1:12, what is the definition of “endures trial”?
-accept the trial joyfully?
-accept it, but grudgingly?
-accept it, but wavering?
-anything but running away?
 
LSK said:
First of all, thank you CM!

Does anyone wonder if the meaning of ‘faith’ used may be far different than the way we use it today? I have often found it virtually impossible, as a Catholic, to seperate my faith from my actions. I see the waning of my faith when my actions wane, and I experience a deepening of my faith when I take the actions, on faith, that will deepen said faith…it is as though they are like two bodies of water that flow into each other.

When St. James told us to ask, in faith, for Faith, could it be that we are instructed to go forward with our actions (asking, for instance, as an action) with the idea that by doing so our Faith will be deepened, i.e. the grace received from frequent reception of the Sacraments strenghthens (spelling? I am the worst, I must warn you) us in our continual fight against sin and temptation.

Does that make any sense or am I chasing my own tail, figuratively speaking of course?
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It isn’t so much a difference in defining faith as a difference in definting “works.”

Both James and Paul were Pharasees, and to the Pharasees the Law was paramount – and that included all the commandments, incluging those that forbade cutting the corners of the beard, dictated the tassels on the cloak, and so on. Following the Law was “works.”

That is why Paul stresses faith over works – you cannot get to heaven by not trimming your beard. And that is why James re-interprets “works” to mean the charitable acts that flow from faith. James’ definition is a “Christian” definition of the word, while Paul’s is more Jewish.
 
Traditional_Ang said:
As you’ve identified debating/controversy as a weak point in yur character that God may want to work with you on, do you think that this debate, where you’ve already shown you can contribute, might be a place where you could do that?
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Actually, I was referring to the fact that Ferdinand Mary and Church Militant expressly stated that this was not to be a debate thread. Since I’m terrible for getting myself into a debate of some sort anywhere I post, I thought it would be a good idea to stay off this thread as much as possible. 😉
Traditional_Ang said:
Just for Lent? And, Just for your own growth and the edification of your bothers and sisters?

I really think that you’ll find the growth from this experience will be well worth the discomfort from having to control your urge for controversy.
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Thanks for the kind invitation. I’ll think about it. 😃 I’m sure I can jump in here and there, but frankly, I’m not very good at reflections or meditations. My words really flow mainly when I’m challenging something somebody else said! :o However, you have a good point.

Maria
 
nobody said:
In James 1:12, what is the definition of “endures trial”?
-accept the trial joyfully?
-accept it, but grudgingly?
-accept it, but wavering?
-anything but running away?
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The New American Bible for Catholics translates this as “Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation.” The meaning there would be “who carries on despite temptation.”
 
vern_humphrey said:
The New American Bible for Catholics translates this as “Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation.” The meaning there would be “who carries on despite temptation.”
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Very good observation, vern humphrey. The Douay-Rheims also renders it temptation: “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been proved, he shall receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him.”

Maria
 
MTD said:
Very good observation, vern humphrey. The Douay-Rheims also renders it temptation: “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been proved, he shall receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him.”

Maria
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It always helps to have two or three different translations at hand when studying the Bible. Translating ancient writings is as much an art as a science.

That’s why I like to say, “Read the book as a book first.” Grasp the writer’s intent before picking verses apart – that makes things a lot easier.

I like to remember the first sentence of a book report, "The theme of this book is . . . " If you can write that sentence, you understand the book.
 
vern_humphrey said:
The New American Bible for Catholics translates this as “Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation.” The meaning there would be “who carries on despite temptation.”
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In my mind perseverance is like warfare (spiritual in this case). If we are set back… we recover, regroup, and then get back in the battle. It doesn’t mean that we never fall. It means we will die trying.
 
Church_Militant said:
In my mind perseverance is like warfare (spiritual in this case). If we are set back… we recover, regroup, and then get back in the battle. It doesn’t mean that we never fall. It means we will die trying.
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I think that’s a very good analogy – sort of like when the landing craft went aground on the reef at Tarawa, and the Marines had to wade neck-deep (and sometimes deeper) through the lagoon.

None of us is without sin, the issue is, do we surrender ourselves to it, or do we keep trying?
 
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