CAF Bible Study - James

[Church_Militant]

James 2:13: For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

Sirach 8:5: Do not reproach a man who is turning away from sin; remember that we all deserve punishment.

Matthew 6:12: And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Subtle as a hand grenade in your cereal bowl in the morning.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello everyone. I found this thread the other day. It took me a little while to read through everything but I’ve finally caught up with you. I don’t post very much but I am here.

[SIGN]Welcome![/SIGN]

 

[lak611]

James 2:13: For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

Sirach 8:5: Do not reproach a man who is turning away from sin; remember that we all deserve punishment.

Matthew 6:12: And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Subtle as a hand grenade in your cereal bowl in the morning.

I need to show mercy to my brothers and sisters because God has shown mercy to me although I certainly did not deserve it. I need to get that log out of my own eye before I start telling my brothers and sisters that they have specks in their eyes.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

James 2:13: For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

Sirach 8:5: Do not reproach a man who is turning away from sin; remember that we all deserve punishment.

Matthew 6:12: And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;

Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Subtle as a hand grenade in your cereal bowl in the morning.

Church Militant:

I think what Jesus had to say on this is really appropriate:

But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matt. 9:12-13 RSV-CE

He was quoting this:

For I desire mercy[a] and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6 RSV-CE

[a] Septuagint

And, Then you have this from Matthew 18:23-35:

*"The kingdom of God is like a king who decided to square accounts with his servants. As he got under way, one servant was brought before him who had run up a debt of a hundred thousand dollars. He couldn’t pay up, so the king ordered the man, along with his wife, children, and goods, to be auctioned off at the slave market.

"The poor wretch threw himself at the king’s feet and begged, ‘Give me a chance and I’ll pay it all back.’ Touched by his plea, the king let him off, erasing the debt.

"The servant was no sooner out of the room when he came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him ten dollars. He seized him by the throat and demanded, ‘Pay up. Now!’

"The poor wretch threw himself down and begged, ‘Give me a chance and I’ll pay it all back.’ But he wouldn’t do it. He had him arrested and put in jail until the debt was paid. When the other servants saw this going on, they were outraged and brought a detailed report to the king.

“The king summoned the man and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave your entire debt when you begged me for mercy. Shouldn’t you be compelled to be merciful to your fellow servant who asked for mercy?’ The king was furious and put the screws to the man until he paid back his entire debt. And that’s exactly what my Father in heaven is going to do to each one of you who doesn’t forgive unconditionally anyone who asks for mercy.”*

Matthew 18: 23-33 The Message

Because we have all had our debts to God forgiven and paid in full, we are all the first servant in the story. If we examine our debt to God, there is no way that any of the debts of any of our brothers and sisters could ever amount to more than a fraction of that debt.

Since that is the case, and since our Lord told us to pray, “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,” it would be insanity not to forgive those who have wronged us, and not to call on the Lord to help us forgive those who have wronged us when we have difficulty doing so - For the Holy Spirit who helps us to pray most certainly will help us to forgive.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I actually sat doewn and read the whole book of James last night. I’ve never to my memory read an entire book of the Bible at one sitting. The comprehension wasn’t good, but the experience was.

Katy:

While it’s usually not recommended that you try to read an entire Book of the Scriptures in one night (unless that’s how you usually do things), I think you’ll see passages that will look familiar and remind you of other Scriptures that are connected to the Scriptures that we’re studying.

I think one thing that will help is to try to read a Chapter and then to read the “Cross-References”. If the copy of the Bible you have at home has few or no cross-references, try Bible Gateway - Here is an example of Cross-References for James 2:16-27 - many are worthless, but some will be gems:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%202:16-27;&version=49;77;

I hope this helps.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[vern_humphrey]

17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Therefore what is this saved by faith only doctrine? Why remove the works part of the equation? Why choose death?

There is a kind of exegesis I call, “Sola Scriptura But Not Wholla Da Scriptura.” It starts with a belief and looks for “proof texts” to support it. And that’s where the “faith only” doctrine comes from.

Clearly, you can’t buy your way into Heaven. If you don’t believe, all the charitable giving in the world won’t save you. But equally clearly, one who has faith must have works. Faith without works is like a ham sandwich without the ham.

 

[Church_Militant]

Since that is the case, and since our Lord told us to pray, “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,” it would be insanity not to forgive those who have wronged us, and not to call on the Lord to help us forgive those who have wronged us when we have difficulty doing so - For the Holy Spirit who helps us to pray most certainly will help us to forgive.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Couldn’t’ve said that any better myself.

 

[Church_Militant]

There is a kind of exegesis I call, “Sola Scriptura But Not Wholla Da Scriptura.” It starts with a belief and looks for “proof texts” to support it. And that’s where the “faith only” doctrine comes from.

Clearly, you can’t buy

your way into Heaven. If you don’t believe, all the charitable giving in the world won’t save you. But equally clearly, one who has faith must have works. **Faith without works is like a ham sandwich without the ham.**What can I say…It’s a Friday in Lent!

 

[Pug]

Often when thinking of “faith without works” I think of works like service to my neighbor, and that is especially easy given the context of the brother without food, but I don’t think that is all that James has in mind. Abraham is being commended for offering his son Issac on an altar in this instance, not a work of service to his neighbor. Abraham considered God as going to fulfill his promise even if Isaac were to die. In fact, at the start of that whole Moriah incident, the OT says that God *tested *Abraham. Isn’t that like chapter one in James, and how we should count it all joy at the testing of our faith?

Abraham didn’t see how, but believed, and obeyed. He acted on his faith. He stretched out his hand to slay Isaac. A faith that you won’t act upon, what kind of faith is that? Obviously you then don’t trust God really, do you? (do I?)

 

[nobody]

Often when thinking of “faith without works” I think of works like service to my neighbor, and that is especially easy given the context of the brother without food, but I don’t think that is all that James has in mind. Abraham is being commended for offering his son Issac on an altar in this instance, not a work of service to his neighbor. Abraham considered God as going to fulfill his promise even if Isaac were to die. In fact, at the start of that whole Moriah incident, the OT says that God *tested *Abraham. Isn’t that like chapter one in James, and how we should count it all joy at the testing of our faith?

Abraham didn’t see how, but believed, and obeyed. He acted on his faith. He stretched out his hand to slay Isaac. A faith that you won’t act upon, what kind of faith is that? Obviously you then don’t trust God really, do you? (do I?)

I went back and re-read it and see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out - acting on faith - or the faith is dead.

I might be going too far off track here, but the Abraham & Isaac story, it’s always bothered me. It seems contradictory - though shalt not kill, but He tells Abraham to kill. Can anyone make this easier for me to understand?

 

[lak611]

I went back and re-read it and see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out - acting on faith - or the faith is dead.

I might be going too far off track here, but the Abraham & Isaac story, it’s always bothered me. It seems contradictory - though shalt not kill, but He tells Abraham to kill. Can anyone make this easier for me to understand?

From the Haydock Commentary: “Ver. 1. God tempted, &c. God tempteth no man to evil, James i. 13. But by trial and experiment, maketh known to the world and to ourselves, what we are; as here by this trial the singular faith and obedience of Abraham was made manifest. (Challoner)”

Also from the Haydock Commentary: “Ver. 10. To sacrifice; a thing hitherto unprecedented, and which God would never suffer to be done in his honour, though he was pleased to try the obedience of his servant so far. The pagans afterwards took occasion, perhaps, from this history, to suppose, that human victims would be the most agreeable to their false deities: (Calmet) but in this misconception they were inexcusable, since God prevented the sacrifice from being really offered to him, in the most earnest manner, saying, Abraham, Abraham, as if there were danger lest the holy man should not hear the first call. (Haydock)”

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I went back and re-read it and see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out - acting on faith - or the faith is dead.

I might be going too far off track here, but the Abraham & Isaac story, it’s always bothered me. It seems contradictory - though shalt not kill, but He tells Abraham to kill. Can anyone make this easier for me to understand?

Nobody:

I believe the word “Tempt” here is the wrong word, because tempt has the connotation of “into sin” or “away from God”. That isn’t what happened here or what was intended here.

God was doing 3 things here, one to Abraham, one to His People, the Israelites, and 1 for the sake of prophecy:

1. Abraham - God Tested Abraham to see if Abraham would give up the person (could be thing - here, it’s his son, Isaac) who means the most to him to and for God - To see which was most important to Abraham, Abraham’s son or God. This may even have been for the sake of Abraham to show him how important his relationship with God had to be. and, As should be apparent, and will be even more apparent in the next two points, God never intended for Abraham to harm Isaac.
2. To His People - Most of the people in the world at that time had HUMAN SACRIFICE - Molech demanded that sons and daughters who were 5-8 be killed by being immolated (“Passed through the fire”). When the Angel stayed Abraham’s hand and pointed to the Ram in the thicket, God replaced the children who were sacrificed to Molech and the other gods with bulls and rams - God replaced the slaughter of the innocent to capricious gods for good harvests, fertility, etc. with the Animal Sacrifice for sin which found its fulfillment in the cross. To do this, God needed to have Abraham do what so many parents in the world did then and then pull him back and say, “Don’t do that - Here’s the Ram. Use Him.”
3. Prophecy - “God will provide the sacrifice,” became the Ram in the thicket which became the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” or “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Isaac who was spared becomes Jesus who was crucified for your sins and for mine.

Or as Isaiah 53:1-12 said:

*Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.*

Isaiah 53:1-12 NIV

I hope this helps.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[MTD]

It seems contradictory - though shalt not kill, but He tells Abraham to kill. Can anyone make this easier for me to understand?

I think it’s important to remember that killing of itself is not intrinsically evil. What’s evil is murder. Did you know that although the Fifth Commandment is normally translated into English as “Thou shalt not kill,” a more accurate rendering of the original Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder”?

If you think of it this way, it’s easier to understand how killing is justified in self-defense (it’s not murder). It’s also easier to understand God’s words to Noah in Gen. 9:5-6 when he tells him murder is to be punished by capital punishment (again, capital punishment is not murder).

God is the one in charge of our lives. He has control of when we begin and when we end. And that’s the whole reason why murder is evil: we are not the ones in charge. But killing of itself is not necessarily murder.

Also, the others have a good point. It’s important to remember that it was a TEST; in other words, God had no intention of Isaac being killed; He was going to prevent the actual killing in one way or another. He only wanted to see how much trust Abraham had in Him even without understanding. Abraham is showing you how to trust even if you don’t understand God’s ways/commands. “And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.” (Rom. 8:28)

Maria

 

[vern_humphrey]

Often when thinking of “faith without works” I think of works like service to my neighbor, and that is especially easy given the context of the brother without food, but I don’t think that is all that James has in mind. Abraham is being commended for offering his son Issac on an altar in this instance, not a work of service to his neighbor. Abraham considered God as going to fulfill his promise even if Isaac were to die. In fact, at the start of that whole Moriah incident, the OT says that God *tested *Abraham. Isn’t that like chapter one in James, and how we should count it all joy at the testing of our faith?

Abraham didn’t see how, but believed, and obeyed. He acted on his faith. He stretched out his hand to slay Isaac. A faith that you won’t act upon, what kind of faith is that? Obviously you then don’t trust God really, do you? (do I?)

We are dealing with two different kinds of “works” here. There are the Pharasitical “works” of not walking too far on Sabbath, not trimming the corners of the beard, and so on (Orthodox Jews will tell us there are not 10 commandments, but 613.)

The other kind of “works” are what we would recognize as good works – feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, and so on.

Paul often emphasizes the first kind in a negative manner – salvation cannot be achieved by these “works.” James is talking about the second kind, and that kind of works goes hand-in-hand with faith.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Originally Posted by nobody
I might be going too far off track here, but the Abraham & Isaac story, it’s always bothered me. It seems contradictory - though shalt not kill, but He tells Abraham to kill. Can anyone make this easier for me to understand?

There are two points to be considered here. Abraham existed before the Ten Commandments. Abraham was the first of the Chosen People – he was the Chosen Person.

Abraham lived in a world where sacrificing the first born was not uncommon. God tested Abraham, and used that test to show that human sacrifice was not what He wanted. It was a major step in the education of Abram (his original name), and part of his transition to Abraham (the father of many).

 

[katy]

Katy:

I think one thing that will help is to try to read a Chapter and then to read the “Cross-References”. If the copy of the Bible you have at home has few or no cross-references, try Bible Gateway - Here is an example of Cross-References for James 2:16-27 - many are worthless, but some will be gems:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%202:16-27;&version=49;77;

I hope this helps.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Thank you. That is an interesting site, and I will do some more comparisons. I do wish it had more Catholic translations.

 

[Efrain]

We are dealing with two different kinds of “works” here. There are the Pharasitical “works” of not walking too far on Sabbath, not trimming the corners of the beard, and so on (Orthodox Jews will tell us there are not 10 commandments, but 613.)

The other kind of “works” are what we would recognize as good works – feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, and so on.

Paul often emphasizes the first kind in a negative manner – salvation cannot be achieved by these “works.” James is talking about the second kind, and that kind of works goes hand-in-hand with faith.

Excellent point here. Works alone are useless if there is no faith and love involved. These types of works are mainly for show or to impress others in order to recieve praise from man. Pharisees were notorious for works that were a burden to keep which had no real meaning behind them and also had lost the sense of trying to please God. This is why St. Paul stresses faith as an essential over works of the law: Gal 3:2-18and again in Rom 4.
The faith James speaks of produces good works as opposed to senseless works without faith. Some early scholars believed that St. James was trying to clarify St. Paul’s epistles while others saw no contradiction between the two (which I agree). I have came across with some Reformers who state that by the doctrine of justified by faith only, good works only come naturally. But, they were just backpeddling and are stumped when they come across the book of James. This frame of believe can easily be refuted by the simple of verse in James 2:17 for it is possible to have faith only without works.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Excellent point here. Works alone are useless if there is no faith and love involved.

Adn these are the sort of “works” Christ had in mind in the Parable of the Pharasee. he also foresaw the Medieval practice of “mort main” (dead hand) where an evil man would leave property to the Church in hopes of getting into Heaven.

These types of works are mainly for show or to impress others in order to recieve praise from man. Pharisees were notorious for works that were a burden to keep which had no real meaning behind them and also had lost the sense of trying to please God. This is why St. Paul stresses faith as an essential over works of the law: Gal 3:2-18and again in Rom 4.
The faith James speaks of produces good works as opposed to senseless works without faith. Some early scholars believed that St. James was trying to clarify St. Paul’s epistles while others saw no contradiction between the two (which I agree). I have came across with some Reformers who state that by the doctrine of justified by faith only, good works only come naturally. But, they were just backpeddling and are stumped when they come across the book of James. This frame of believe can easily be refuted by the simple of verse in James 2:17 for it is possible to have faith only without works.

Paul of course was a Pharasee (he studied under Galaliel) as was James.

 

[lak611]

Paul of course was a Pharasee (he studied under Galaliel) as was James.

I knew about Paul being a Pharisee (he even mentions it himself), but I was not aware of James being one. Where did you find that out about James? Is it in the Bible, or is it from Tradition or the Early Church Fathers?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I knew about Paul being a Pharisee (he even mentions it himself), but I was not aware of James being one. Where did you find that out about James? Is it in the Bible, or is it from Tradition or the Early Church Fathers?

He is called “James the Just” – a title that was usually given to ultra-Pharasees (implying rigid adherence to the Law.) That’s why his participation in the Council of Jerusalem was so critical – he was a leader of the Pharasitical sect of Christianity – and why his judgement was so critical. it prevented a split in the early Church between the supporters of Peter and Paul and the Pharasitical sect.