Cafeteria Catholicism re: homosexuality

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Slkmcphee

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Greetings,

This is my first real post other than the meet & greet. This topic has bothered me for a while.

I was recently confirmed early in RCIA for reasons you can see in the meet & greet thread. I came into the Church with my husband and it was a wonderful experience. However, there is a small issue between the DH and myself that hits close to home.

His uncle is a homosexual who has been living in a monogamous relationship for 9 years. He is exceptionally talented (as many homosexuals seem to be) and is financially successful. In the past he has even helped us out financially. I have a high regard for him in everything except his sexual choices (although his “partner” is in many ways a talented and kind person).

When we came into the Church it was my understanding that we agreed to accept all doctrine and dogma even if we did not understand it fully. Before our confirmation, I spoke with our DRE about this very topic, I just had to get a better understanding. Given that there is scientific evidence that homosexuals are chemically different (pheromones and all that) than heterosexuals, this orientation doesn’t always appear to be a “choice,” just acting on it. The DRE put it this way, that it is essentially their cross to bear, that not all people are suited to the vocation of marriage, and that it is their lot to be chaste and celibate unless they can defeat that orientation and have a proper marriage.

My husband doesn’t like to talk much about this one topic. I feel as though if I can accept that altar bread becomes the body of Christ and that my sins are forgiven in confession and that contraception is wrong, I can accept this as well. I don’t think he can, and I am concerned.

What are the consequences if he does not truly accept it? Is there anything that I can do or refer to him that might clear up this issue? What are the limitations in dealing with his uncle? I have a hard time explaining the relationship to my children.

Also, since he is reenlisting in the army, the topic of gays in the military (and Obama’s promise to them) has come up. He thinks that they should be able to serve because it is not really an issue to morale. I am on the fence with that, because many people in the military do not live moral/holy lives but are allowed to serve, and maybe I should not impose my faith on soldiers. However, the military is often the harbinger of change in society (women in the workforce, the civil rights movement, etc) and this is not a change that I believe is beneficial to society.
Any thoughts?:confused:
 
Congratulations and welcome to the Church!

Please go to the website for the Courage apostolate, where you will find much helpful information about homosexuality from a Catholic perspective, as well as a link to Encourage, a ministry to family and friends of homosexuals.

Try calling your Diocese to see if there is an Encourage group in your area. It can be very helpful for those dealing with family members living a homosexual lifestyle.

Betsy
 
Unfortunatly there isn’t much you can really do to make your husband accept this. It’s something that God will work with him on, I am sure. Just pray for him, and be ready to give a kind (but truthful!) answer when he asks.

As for gays in the military, if Obama repeals DADT (don’t ask, don’t tell) it doesn’t mean there will necessarily be any more or any less homosexuals in the military. They are already serving our country. Repealing DADT will allow the military to address this issue in the open, and hopefully help all involved reach comfortable way to approach the situation. As you have seen, homosexuals can be (and in most cases ARE) upstanding and kind members of society. They are not sex-crazed deviants that are looking to pervert the minds of all around them. Only the loud minority are behaving that way, as radical minorities in groups tend to do. I myself know several homosexual men and women, and all of them are upstanding members of society, and keep their sexual choices behind closed doors. I just can’t see the fuss of finding ways to get shower curtains in the barrack’s showers so these people don’t have to feel second class or somehow inferior because of their struggles that they have to hide from everyone around them because people can’t accept that they are sinners too.

My belief is this, homosexuality is not a choice for many gays. It’s the struggle they are born with, and it’s heartbreaking. I pray for them constantly that they will be able to overcome this, find someone suitable to marry and follow the Lord. They are indeed good people, and I think they should be allowed to serve. It’s not my job to beat them over the head for their choices and undercut them at every turn to make their lives miserable until they “crack” and somehow they turn straight. It’s my job to show them Christ, so that they may see the light in me, and choose to follow CHRIST rather than callings of the flesh. Just as is true with unmarried straights. I can’t force them to stop being gay by denying them the right and priveleges that straight people enjoy. I can only love them, and JESUS will change their hearts. (for the record, I don’t support gay marriages, as marriage is for men and women, but I don’t see civil unions as some horrible violation to provide protection to these people so they aren’t abused by the system if they never come to Christ and overcome their troubles).

I personally wonder why we aren’t getting just as “up in arms” as it were about the liberal agenda of pushing fornication as the “norm” in our society. It seems like we’ve just zeroed in ONLY on the sin of homsexuality and are beating that horse to death. It’s not solving anything, and is turning gays away from many christians because they see them as these hateful people that just want to make their lives miserable to they’ll convert. I think we need to show ourselves as not believing that homosexuality is a valid lifestyle, but that we aren’t out to ruin them. They should see us as beacons of love, rather than the enemy.

I guess I’ll get off my soapbox now 😉
 
Homosexuality is very often a result of a chemical imbalance or some other neurological problem. That means, as you pointed out, that they don’t necessarily choose to be the way they are. This ought not to come as a surprise to Christians, however, because the Christian faith has always believed that man has concupiscence (a tendency to sin) ever since the Fall. All stuff like that does is prove that concupiscence exists.

There are genes that have shown someone to be more likely to be a murderer. Personally, I rather suspect that there are some genes that make one more likely to be a pedophile. These genes do not absolve someone from their guilt. I myself struggled with masturbation a great deal at a younger age. I don’t know if this was due to genetics, stuff on tv, or some combination of the two. But I never assumed that since I was just behaving on my impulses that I was justified. I always knew it was wrong, and fortunately through the grace of multiple confessions, I am free of that sin and any other sexual perversions.

One should never take our fallen nature as grounds to act against God’s wishes. Rather, we should recognize our fallen nature and ask God’s forgiveness for our sins.
 
Aaron_I said:
Homosexuality is very often a result of a chemical imbalance or some other neurological problem. That means, as you pointed out, that they don’t necessarily choose to be the way they are. This ought not to come as a surprise to Christians, however, because the Christian faith has always believed that man has concupiscence (a tendency to sin) ever since the Fall. All stuff like that does is prove that concupiscence exists.

There are genes that have shown someone to be more likely to be a murderer. Personally, I rather suspect that there are some genes that make one more likely to be a pedophile. These genes do not absolve someone from their guilt. I myself struggled with masturbation a great deal at a younger age. I don’t know if this was due to genetics, stuff on tv, or some combination of the two. But I never assumed that since I was just behaving on my impulses that I was justified. I always knew it was wrong, and fortunately through the grace of multiple confessions, I am free of that sin and any other sexual perversions.

One should never take our fallen nature as grounds to act against God’s wishes. Rather, we should recognize our fallen nature and ask God’s forgiveness for our sins.
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While I agree with most of what you said I have to speak up on the genes issue.
There is absolutely ZERO evidence of a gene that makes anyone homosexual or a masturbator.
 
thistle said:
While I agree with most of what you said I have to speak up on the genes issue.
There is absolutely ZERO evidence of a gene that makes anyone homosexual or a masturbator.
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Not true to the extent of a genetics, there is plenty of evidence and data that shows there is a genetic trait for sexual orientation in social animals. The key is the environmental influence that is involved.
 
Jermosh said:
Not true to the extent of a genetics, there is plenty of evidence and data that shows there is a genetic trait for sexual orientation in social animals. The key is the environmental influence that is involved.
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Sorry but there is NO evidence of a gay gene despite gays being desperate for there to be one to justify their gravely disordered behaviour as being beyond their control.
 
Slkmcphee said:
Greetings,

This is my first real post other than the meet & greet. This topic has bothered me for a while.

I was recently confirmed early in RCIA for reasons you can see in the meet & greet thread. I came into the Church with my husband and it was a wonderful experience. However, there is a small issue between the DH and myself that hits close to home.

His uncle is a homosexual who has been living in a monogamous relationship for 9 years. He is exceptionally talented (as many homosexuals seem to be) and is financially successful. In the past he has even helped us out financially. I have a high regard for him in everything except his sexual choices (although his “partner” is in many ways a talented and kind person).

When we came into the Church it was my understanding that we agreed to accept all doctrine and dogma even if we did not understand it fully. Before our confirmation, I spoke with our DRE about this very topic, I just had to get a better understanding. Given that there is scientific evidence that homosexuals are chemically different (pheromones and all that) than heterosexuals, this orientation doesn’t always appear to be a “choice,” just acting on it. The DRE put it this way, that it is essentially their cross to bear, that not all people are suited to the vocation of marriage, and that it is their lot to be chaste and celibate unless they can defeat that orientation and have a proper marriage.

My husband doesn’t like to talk much about this one topic. I feel as though if I can accept that altar bread becomes the body of Christ and that my sins are forgiven in confession and that contraception is wrong, I can accept this as well. I don’t think he can, and I am concerned.

What are the consequences if he does not truly accept it? Is there anything that I can do or refer to him that might clear up this issue? What are the limitations in dealing with his uncle? I have a hard time explaining the relationship to my children.

Also, since he is reenlisting in the army, the topic of gays in the military (and Obama’s promise to them) has come up. He thinks that they should be able to serve because it is not really an issue to morale. I am on the fence with that, because many people in the military do not live moral/holy lives but are allowed to serve, and maybe I should not impose my faith on soldiers. However, the military is often the harbinger of change in society (women in the workforce, the civil rights movement, etc) and this is not a change that I believe is beneficial to society.
Any thoughts?:confused:
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Hi Slkmcphee, and welcome to the CAF. This may help, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

CCC
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; I Cor 6:10; I Tim 1:10.

CCC
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Peace.
 
I would just point out that whether same-sex attraction (SSA) is the result of nature, nurture, or a combination of the two, it really has no bearing on the objective morality of homosexual acts. It may affect an individual’s level of culpability, but that’s something we aren’t really in a position to judge anyway.

Some people may be “born with” a hot temper, but that doesn’t mean it’s not sinful for those people to lay into everyone they meet because they “can’t help it.” Others may be born with a propensity to be an alcoholic, but that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for those people to go binge drinking every night. There are a vast number of personality traits that people are “born with”, but should nonetheless strive not to act upon.

In your husband’s situation, I would say that he might just need time. Having a close family member that you love who is engaged is such behavior definitely makes it more difficult to come to terms with the Church’s teaching. We are all sinners, even the most decent of us. Simply because someone is an upstanding citizen doesn’t mean that all of their life choices are automatically morally upstanding. I have close family members who have cohabitated, committed adultery, etc. I still love them, but I don’t condone their behavior. However, I find no need to turn every interaction with them into a conversation about the worst parts of them. I certainly wouldn’t want the conversation to always be about my failings.

When my children are old enough to ask questions, I’ll be honest with them if they ask question, but I’m certainly not going to volunteer information about others faults. Of course, children may assume that a cohabitating couple are married. Looking at a same sex couple, it’s a little more confusing. If it were me, I would just be clear about the Church teaching, but then say that we still love people even when they do bad things.
 
Slkmcphee said:
Given that there is scientific evidence that homosexuals are chemically different (pheromones and all that) than heterosexuals, this orientation doesn’t always appear to be a “choice,” just acting on it.
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Perhaps your confusion would dissipate by providing some link to this “evidence.”

A better place to start would be here – Andrew J. Sodergren, M.S. paper on the Causes of Homosexuality: A Christian Appraisal of the Data. Sodergren is a scholar at the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family. It is lengthy but highly informative.

It says nothing BTW of “pheromones” which a quick look on the web gave me this: “Half a century after the discovery of pheromones in animals, scientists have yet to conclusively identify a single such chemical in humans. Yet the term is bandied about regularly in reference to people and the supposedly silent means by which they communicate.”

Sodergren is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/

dj
 
Joe_5859 said:
I would just point out that whether same-sex attraction (SSA) is the result of nature, nurture, or a combination of the two,
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You might enjoy the Sodergren study also. A portion here:

"Sexual orientation does not emerge immediately upon conception and birth but takes time to develop throughout childhood, adolescence, and even adulthood. Thus, there is a great deal of room for experience to affect this process. Consequently, researchers investigating the various factors discussed above agree that rather than causing homosexual orientation directly these influences likely precipitate a set of pre-homosexual traits and dispositions that in turn increases the likelihood of adult homosexuality (Bailey & Zucker, 1995; Dunne, Bailey, Kirk, & Martin, 2000).

The term coined for this is childhood gender nonconformity (CGN), which simply refers to a certain conglomeration of sex atypical traits (physical, psychological, and behavioral features). CGN is known to be consistently associated with later homosexual orientations as well as many of the biological and familial factors discussed above (Bailey & Zucker, 1995).

However, since not everyone with CGN develops an adult homosexual orientation, there must be some environmental influences that contribute to such a development. These could include for instance failed relationships with one’s parents and/or peers. Indeed, classic psychodynamic theory held that male homosexuality was primarily caused by a maladaptive family pattern in which the father is weak and distant and the mother is over-controlling (roughly the reverse is posited for females).

While there has been very little data in the last 20 years supporting these specific claims, research does emphasize the importance of relationships in the development of sexual orientation. For instance, an interesting study by Landolt, Bartholomew, Saffrey, Oram, and Perlman (2004) examined the relationship between CGN and rejection from parents and peers in a sample of 191 gay and bisexual men. They found, “Gender nonconforming behavior in childhood was associated with maternal, paternal, and peer rejection” among these gay and bisexual men (p. 124).

Another recent study, though methodologically weak, found that among a sample of Catholic seminarians, those admitting a homosexual orientation also reported “more emotional distance from their fathers than heterosexual seminarians” (Seutter & Rovers, 2004, p. 46)."

I would be careful with the “result of nature” phrasing because that seems to takes us back down the old “gay gene” trail.

The link once again: payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/

dj
 
I think there are two sides to look at. One is the spiritual side and the other is the practical side. I will leave the spiritual side to the other on the board. I am also not Catholic, so I don’t have much to say on the matter regardless.

What I would like to point out though, is that regardless of how you work out your beliefs in your mind/spirit/church, I would be mindful of how you treat your Uncle and his family going forward. What I have gathered so far is: he is nice, intelligent, supportive (loving?), welcomes you into his life, and even supports you financially, likely with the help of his partner. Now, if you in any way decide to change the terms of your relationship, particularity as a result of your conversion, I would not imagine that going over to well. After all he has done, and how he treats you, if after a decade you decide that you are to pass judgment on him and his choices, well, I don’t think I would stand for it. I don’t think he would either. Especially considering your history, I would tread very very lightly, if at all.

Just my opinion.
 
Slkmcphee said:
Greetings,

This is my first real post other than the meet & greet. This topic has bothered me for a while.

I was recently confirmed early in RCIA for reasons you can see in the meet & greet thread. I came into the Church with my husband and it was a wonderful experience. However, there is a small issue between the DH and myself that hits close to home.

His uncle is a homosexual who has been living in a monogamous relationship for 9 years. He is exceptionally talented (as many homosexuals seem to be) and is financially successful. In the past he has even helped us out financially. I have a high regard for him in everything except his sexual choices (although his “partner” is in many ways a talented and kind person).

When we came into the Church it was my understanding that we agreed to accept all doctrine and dogma even if we did not understand it fully. Before our confirmation, I spoke with our DRE about this very topic, I just had to get a better understanding. Given that there is scientific evidence that homosexuals are chemically different (pheromones and all that) than heterosexuals, this orientation doesn’t always appear to be a “choice,” just acting on it. The DRE put it this way, that it is essentially their cross to bear, that not all people are suited to the vocation of marriage, and that it is their lot to be chaste and celibate unless they can defeat that orientation and have a proper marriage.

My husband doesn’t like to talk much about this one topic. I feel as though if I can accept that altar bread becomes the body of Christ and that my sins are forgiven in confession and that contraception is wrong, I can accept this as well. I don’t think he can, and I am concerned.

What are the consequences if he does not truly accept it? Is there anything that I can do or refer to him that might clear up this issue? What are the limitations in dealing with his uncle? I have a hard time explaining the relationship to my children.

Also, since he is reenlisting in the army, the topic of gays in the military (and Obama’s promise to them) has come up. He thinks that they should be able to serve because it is not really an issue to morale. I am on the fence with that, because many people in the military do not live moral/holy lives but are allowed to serve, and maybe I should not impose my faith on soldiers. However, the military is often the harbinger of change in society (women in the workforce, the civil rights movement, etc) and this is not a change that I believe is beneficial to society.
Any thoughts?:confused:
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Being a homosexual I would like to address a couple things in your post. I’m not sure they’re even really relevant to your questions but I feel drawn to comment.

You mentioned the homosexual orientation being “defeated”. I would like to just say that this is something very controversial and as a gay man, my experience is that it can’t be “defeated”. I tried for years to wish, work, and pray away a part of me that is who I am and I was lead to psychological and mental instability for trying to ignore that part of me, so it completely floors me when a heterosexual will talk about the gay orientation this way.

Imagine someone telling you that you can’t love your husband or that being with him is wrong and you need to like women (yes, it sounds so wrong and gross but that is how this falls on a gay person’s ears when they are told that homosexuality can be “cured” or “defeated”).

Also, regarding Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, I would like to give you the perspective of a gay individual. I have values, goals, and abilities that I would like to contribute to the armed forces (speaking Arabic, being a physically fit person, being patriotic, etc.), but I am deterred because of DADT. For me to live 4-8 or even more, years having to hide who I am from my brothers in arms would be stressful to the point of breaking. I don’t see how any random kid can be recruited off the street and given a gun and sent abroad to serve, but I can’t if I’m an out gay man finishing a college education, from a good family, respect for life/dignity, and have valuable skills to use in the War on Terror…

:twocents:
 
Having homosexual tendancies is not wrong. There is no reason for people who have these tendancies not to be in the military, or be in our lives as friends, family, or whatnot. It is so important to love and accept these people for who they are.

Acting on homosexual urges is immoral. At the same time, who among us is not immoral? Should reject people for being immoral when we have a beam in our own eyes? It is a difficult situation you are in for sure though.

Think of people who are liars. Some people just seem to be born with the tendancy to lie, or exagerrate, or whatever. They have the urge to do this. Sometimes they do lie even though they know its wrong. We shouldn’t judge or reject these people…they are just imperfect like us.

Now imagine someone that has urges to lie, and thinks its ok to lie. They do it all the time, and out in the open. This is a different situation…but we have to be careful not to label them as “bad people” or necessarily try to cut them out of our lives! They are just misguided, and don’t understand why their natural tendancies should be “repressed” or “changed.” It is also important to love these people, and try to serve as good examples for them if we can. Try to tell them the importance of telling the truth, if we can.

Now, I fully admit that sexual sin is different than lying, and can be a little more serious, or heavy. But when I think of homosexuality as what it is…a sin…and compare it to other sins, it helps give me perspective. I wouldn’t recoil in horror at a young adult that thinks its ok to use birth control. I would disapprove, but I wouldn’t condemn them. Likewise, I wouldn’t completely reject an open homosexual. I just do my best not to judge them, love them, pray for them, and perhaps help them see the light if I’m in a position to do so. Every one of my family members (even all my aunts, uncles, and cousins) think that its ok to use birth control (a mortal sin, equal to homosexual acts perhaps). I love and accept them for who they are anyways. I don’t try to cut of my relationships with them, and I wouldn’t hide my children from them if I had any.

When explaining to your children this mans relationship, perhaps you can just take the same approach and attitude that you would if you were explaining to them someone who habitually lies and thinks its ok. They will get the point that its wrong, but we can love the person without loving what they do. Many people understand that homosexuality is wrong, but they seem to act like it is more scandolus than any other sin. In fact, it is “just” another sin…the world is full of them. We can overcome them instead of fearing them.

I don’t know if this helps at all, but its my perspective!
 
thistle said:
Sorry but there is NO evidence of a gay gene despite gays being desperate for there to be one to justify their gravely disordered behaviour as being beyond their control.
Click to expand...
I did not say a Gay Gene, but gentic trait of which is plenty of evidense. There is a direct signal contrasted between identical(52%) an fratenal(22%) twins, showing that there is a genetic trait and enviromental signal. While I am not found of useing Wiki as a source, they do have good general overviews and criticisms, they also have good or even scholary referances.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Also, the Church has never stated that there is not a biological or enviromental cause for homosexuality as well.
 
Jermosh said:
I did not say a Gay Gene, but gentic trait of which is plenty of evidense. There is a direct signal contrasted between identical(52%) an fratenal(22%) twins, showing that there is a genetic trait and enviromental signal. While I am not found of useing Wiki as a source, they do have good general overviews and criticisms, they also have good or even scholary referances.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

Also, the Church has never stated that there is not a biological or enviromental cause for homosexuality as well.
Click to expand...
This twin story is always the only study ever brought up when people are trying to show people can be born gay. Its not supported by any other studies. If it is direct me to them.

The bottom line is that nobody is born gay. Homosexuality is the result of one or more of upbringing, environment, choice.
 
thistle said:
This twin story is always the only study ever brought up when people are trying to show people can be born gay. Its not supported by any other studies. If it is direct me to them.

The bottom line is that nobody is born gay. Homosexuality is the result of one or more of upbringing, environment, choice.
Click to expand...
There are others, read the resources on the wiki page.
 
Aaron_I said:
Homosexuality is very often a result of a chemical imbalance or some other neurological problem. That means, as you pointed out, that they don’t necessarily choose to be the way they are. This ought not to come as a surprise to Christians, however, because the Christian faith has always believed that man has concupiscence (a tendency to sin) ever since the Fall. All stuff like that does is prove that concupiscence exists.

There are genes that have shown someone to be more likely to be a murderer. Personally, I rather suspect that there are some genes that make one more likely to be a pedophile. These genes do not absolve someone from their guilt. I myself struggled with masturbation a great deal at a younger age. I don’t know if this was due to genetics, stuff on tv, or some combination of the two. But I never assumed that since I was just behaving on my impulses that I was justified. I always knew it was wrong, and fortunately through the grace of multiple confessions, I am free of that sin and any other sexual perversions.

One should never take our fallen nature as grounds to act against God’s wishes. Rather, we should recognize our fallen nature and ask God’s forgiveness for our sins.
Click to expand...
Comparing homosexuality to pedophilia or maasturbation is ridiculous. Pedophilia is a peversion that harms innocent children. The same can’t be said for the other two to the same extent.
 
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