Cafeteria Protestants

[Bob_Crowley]

Try getting a self-labeled “Bible Christian” to explain Matt. 16:28, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock …”

He’ll make it sound like Jesus and Peter were having a scholarly discussion about the shades of meaning of Greek nouns. “The masculine noun petros means one thing, you see, but the feminine noun petra means something subtly different !”

While Christ usually spoke Aramaic and not Greek.

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Yet in Post 31 a Wels Poster noted the FOC is specifically vague and the meaning could be until Jesus was born.

?
So apparently the BOC is open to interpretation by the various synods.

Mary.

Indeed. Parts of the BOC are open to interpretation. Some Lutherans don’t even accept the FOC.

Thankfully we can hold to varying interpretations on this issue without condemning each other to hell.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Yet in Post 31 a Wels Poster noted the FOC is specifically vague and the meaning could be until Jesus was born.

?
So apparently the BOC is open to interpretation by the various synods.

Mary.

Most Lutherans including me believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary the Mother of God .

 

[Thorolfr]

Most Lutherans including me believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary the Mother of God .

Most Lutherans?

Here’s something from an ELCA blog called Living Lutheran where I found the following:

“Most Lutherans do not espouse the perpetual virginity of Mary (that she was a virgin her whole life), but interestingly, Luther did. The thing is, Mark’s Gospel even names Jesus’ brothers and sisters. One author got around this in her midrash by having Joseph die and Mary remarry another man who had children. She never has sex with husband two, so she remains a virgin, and Jesus has half-brothers. (Seems like a big stretch to me.)”

As of last year, the ELCA still had 3,765,362 members and is still the largest Lutheran denomination in the US. I doubt that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a very important belief for a lot of Lutherans. No one in my church has ever even mentioned the subject before.

 

[JonNC]

The FC is specifically vague. “Remained a virgin” can be forever, or until the birth of Jesus.

But knowing the views of the reformers, both first and second generation, including Chemnitz, its pretty clear that they meant forever.
A couple of links on the topic:gottesdienstonline.blogspot.com/2010/09/et-tamen-virgo-mansit.html

weedon.blogspot.com/2008/07/patristic-quote-of-day_11.html

In Pastor Weedon’s blog, this:

For “he did not know her” - it says - “until she gave birth to a Son, her firstborn.” But this could make one suppose that Mary, after having offered in all her purity her own service in giving birth to the Lord, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, did not subsequently refrain from normal conjugal relations. That would not have affected the teaching of our religion at all, because Mary’s virginity was necessary until the service of the Incarnation, and what happened afterward need not be investigated in order to affect the doctrine of the mystery. But since the lovers of Christ [that is, the faithful] do not allow themselves to hear that the Mother of God ceased at a given moment to be a virgin, we consider their testimony sufficient. – St. Basil the Great, Homily [PG 31, 1468]

I think St.Basil the Great states what I think the Lutheran reformers believed about this issue.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Most Lutherans including me believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary the Mother of God .

I think it more accurate to say most Lutherans other than in America. It is interesting because, for Pieper is accepted, for Walther it isn’t even debatable. She was ever virgin, and yet American Lutherans in the LCMS seem to be drifting from this pious belief. Sadly.

Jon

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Most Lutherans?

Here’s something from an ELCA blog called Living Lutheran where I found the following:

“Most Lutherans do not espouse the perpetual virginity of Mary (that she was a virgin her whole life), but interestingly, Luther did. The thing is, Mark’s Gospel even names Jesus’ brothers and sisters. One author got around this in her midrash by having Joseph die and Mary remarry another man who had children. She never has sex with husband two, so she remains a virgin, and Jesus has half-brothers. (Seems like a big stretch to me.)”

As of last year, the ELCA still had 3,765,362 members and is still the largest Lutheran denomination in the US. I doubt that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a very important belief for a lot of Lutherans. No one in my church has ever even mentioned the subject before.

I don’t know any Lutherans who believe it either.

I leaned toward the view three years ago when I became Lutheran but I have jettisoned the belief in the past year or so.

 

[Peter_J]

Mary is a sinner , what part of for all have sinned ( except Jesus) don’t you get

I’ll concede that the author of that verse probably wasn’t concerned with a teaching (certainly not a dogma then) of Immaculate Conception. But I wouldn’t take that verse in a fundamentalist way that rules out such a possibility.

 

[Peter_J]

Two examples come to mind where the Roman Catholic Church just glosses over Scriptural texts and commandments. One is the commandment of Jesus in Matthew 19 to sell all you have, give everything to the poor, and follow Jesus. The early church did just that. If you read in Acts 4, followers of Jesus lived together in common, shared what they had, ‘each according to his need.’ That is socialism/communism. Or at the very least a 1960’s version of communes.

Today it’s not something that most churches teach. So we just interpret it as something the early Christians did, not knowing it was a commandment of Jesus Himself.

Another example is the way different churches teach apocalyptic Scripture. I guess it’s on my mind because one church says that the world is going to end today. Some churches are VERY keen on end times theology. I would imagine that the Book of Revelation made the canon because Christians then were also keen on end times.

Roman Catholics - and others - interpret Revelations and the end times much more metaphorically. We don’t know. We can’t know. So don’t spend time worrying.

You haven’t spent much time on Internet forums, have you?

 

[benhur]

Hi behur! Thank You for responding!

Hi M, what would you like to see,discussion in general over this or to look at specific examples, which may have us all over the place (still ok but man, Marion doctrine can be many threads etc ) ?

 

[benhur]

I’ll concede that the author of that verse probably wasn’t concerned with a teaching (certainly not a dogma then) of Immaculate Conception. But I wouldn’t take that verse in a fundamentalist way that rules out such a possibility.

Hi P.

But the at the same time IC might rule out the efficacy of cleansing and righteousness, even being "perfect’’ in OT. It may also rule out that Mary was just like us, or that Jesus was tempted or walked the same steps as all men ( a perfect mother is quite “different” ).

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

Hi P.

But the at the same time IC might rule out the efficacy of cleansing and righteousness, even being "perfect’’ in OT. It may also rule out that Mary was just like us, or that Jesus was tempted or walked the same steps as all men ( a perfect mother is quite “different” ).

Blessings

This is a common question. Note the teaching says “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

 

[exnihilo]

I think it more accurate to say most Lutherans other than in America. It is interesting because, for Pieper is accepted, for Walther it isn’t even debatable. She was ever virgin, and yet American Lutherans in the LCMS seem to be drifting from this pious belief. Sadly.

As you know American Christianity is a cacophony of ideas. So many men, including unfortunately Catholics, hold to a mismash of novel ideas that make no sense when put together. The cross pollination of different theologies hasn’t been good for Christianity. And Lutheranism might be the biggest victim. As much as I appreciate the Evangelical, in a general sense, enthusiasm its lack of coherent theology is what leads to ‘me and Jesus’ religion, which is no religion at all.

If the Catholic Church wants to claim that the words “brother” and “sisters” do not mean real brothers and sisters but only cousins or relatives, even though Greek does have separate words for “cousin” and “relative,” they can certainly make that claim, but it cannot be proven. It seems to me that the belief that Jesus did not have full brothers and sisters is driven more by theology rather than what can be demonstrated from the historical record which is quite sparse on this question.

Actually, it can be proven. The Gospels actually tell us who the mother of some of the brothers are, and it isn’t the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the Septuagint Lot is called Abraham’s brother when we know from the ancestry he would be what we call a nephew in modern English. We have definitive proof that not all brothers in Holy Scripture are brothers in the sense of from the same mother and father. To insist that the brothers of the Lord are son’s of Mary is the more ideologically driven position.

 

[benhur]

This is a common question. Note the teaching says “that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

yes , all merits , OT and NT, pivot around Jesus Christ. And yes , that is the teaching.

 

[campeador]

Ineffabilis Deus:

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way thhat he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.

 

[JonNC]

Ineffabilis Deus:

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way thhat he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds.

Amen

Jon

 

[cmodrmac]

the elephant in the room

Birth control - Catholic in the American catholic Church practice birth control in the same % as the general population

 

[campeador]

Amen

Jon

Careful my friend.

Responses like this may lead me to believe that my prayers for you are having their desired effect.

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Amen

Jon

As a Lutheran you are comfortable with a de fine doctrine being de fine simply because it’s “fitting” and not commanded in scripture?

 

[JonNC]

As a Lutheran you are comfortable with a de fine doctrine being de fine simply because it’s “fitting” and not commanded in scripture?

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”. - Luther

One does not have to claim a belief is doctrine to say amen. Is it not Lutheran to allow personal piety regarding Marian beliefs that are adiaphoron?

Jon