Cafeteria Traditionalists

[khawk2]

Thing is, never have we been told there are two forms of the Latin Rite until the SP. Unless one reads it, they don’t know of the pope’s words. And with so many bishops keeping the SP hush hush or dissing it, it’s no wonder.

It is amazing to me that Blessed John Paul II started the Ecclesia Dei Commission in 1988 and ordered the Bishops to offer the Extraordinary Form yet many US Bishops (keeping in mind that these were many of the same Bishops from Vatican II days) made it go away or ignored it completely. It was not until 2007 and Pope BenedictXVI pushed the issue by telling all priests that they were free to celebrate BOTH FORMS without permission from their Bishop (or anyone else). The Pope went further by instructing the seminaries who had decades before abandoned the teaching of latin start instructing their seminarians enough latin so that they can say the black with correct pronunciation. This was monumental in not only showing that the Extraordinary Form (Sacred then and Sacred Now) was to be given the reverence it deserved but also that those who wished to attend this form should be accommodated NOW. I have been nothing but impressed with this new Pope. Benedict is truly a gift from God.

 

[khawk2]

Something to add to this is that when you take this attitude you are not much better than people who have organized clown masses. You have turned the mass into something that exists solely because it is pleasing to you. Think how impressed God will be that you attend a liturgy despite the fact that there are other forms of the liturgy that are much more pleaisng to you.

In an extreme case where there is a Mass where there is blatant liturgical abuses, but none that invalidate the mass, you should still attend if you have no other option as if Christ has to show up and suffer you should as well.

Unfortunately ( or fortunately) for many of us this militant attitude about the Catholic Faith was taught to us as young children by the Blessed Nuns. It was a different time. Catholics were routinely discriminated against and so the Nuns, in teaching us about the saints and martyrs taught Catholic Children who attended Catholic School that many had died for their faith rather than renounce Christ and that if we were ever in a position we should die for our Catholic Faith rather than denounce it or deny it. They used the martyrs as their examples and as young sponges you can imagine the result. I am not trying to make excuses but rather help others in understanding the stalwart opinion of the above poster.
As adults some of this inevitably wanes but frankly it was this upbringing that sustained me and many others during the dark times many of us have experienced with a crisis of faith. When you grow up amongst the plethora of statues, beautiful chants, incense and mysterious language it is a very strong pull to be drawn back in. It exemplifies, at least to me- the Perfect Prayer.
As a young adult with the Novus Ordo the only difference (at least in the beginning) was that the Mass was now in English. There was still a high altar, the Priest still faced that altar but some parts of the Mass that were said quietly by the Priest (like the Consecration) were now said aloud. That Mass was as beautiful, solemn and sacred as the Mass I grew up with. But as things changed things changed.

I am happy that we have both forms. I am sad that we do not all agree. But I understand why.

 

[JReducation]

Unfortunately ( or fortunately) for many of us this militant attitude about the Catholic Faith was taught to us as young children by the Blessed Nuns. It was a different time. Catholics were routinely discriminated against

Khawk is offering an important insight into the conflicts between American Catholics. I would add here a few historical facts and some personal experiences that the average layman does not know.

American sisters were not well educated. Most of them never went beyond high school. Theology was not allowed in convents of sisters. The only women religious who could study theology were nuns; but nuns have little or no contact with the laity. Theology was part of their on-going formation. While teaching sisters, had basic catechism. They couldn’t explain it any better than their students could explain it.

Many of these women came from Ireland, Germany and France. In Germany and France, Catholics were under fire from secularist sources. The Irish poor who immigrated to the USA were not welcome. Later, the Italians came and they too were unwelcome. Sisters came from Italy to serve them. What we had was a ghetto mentality. “Us” vs “Them”.

We also have to remember that the early Protestants and Jews who came to the USA were also running away from discrimination. Put all of these folks together and what do you get? You get a nation of people who are antagonistic toward each other, who cooperate in order to survive as a nation, but that’s as far as they’re willing to go.

American sisters were very attached to the martyrs, because they could identify with these men and women who were persecuted for their faith and their culture. Unfortunately, they were not well educated in ascetical theology, did not understand the theology of martyrdom, the history of the martyrs and they received very little guidance from the clergy and male religious who were the educated Catholics. It’s no surprise that these sisters developed a hard shell and presented martyrdom in a militant light. They did not understand the whole concept of Church Militant beyond what they read in the catechism, whereas their male counterparts were well versed in these matters.

Very early in my religious life, I was sent to the missions in the Amazon. We worked along with sisters from Spain and South America. I was very touched by their gentleness. They were very informal, friendly, nurturing, and motherly. The American missionary sisters who arrived ended up in Liberation Theology and all kinds of trouble. I believe it happened, because they could not shed the combative spirit that had been drilled into them in American Catholic schools. Meanwhile, their South American and Spanish counterparts worked for the poor without getting involved in some socio-political campaign.

I was very stunned when I arrived in Italy to go to school for theology. By that time, American sisters were starting to go for graduate degrees, including theology degrees. They were studying in European universities alongside us guys. They usually lived with local sisters. One day a sister from Nigeria approached me. She seemed very uncomfortable. I encouraged her to speak her mind. She was also a Franciscan. She whispered, “Sometimes I feel that the sisters from the United States look down on the rest of us. They have an air of authority.” I looked at her and said, “You mean they’re arrogant.” The sister was very embarrassed. I thought it was funny. I had to explain to her that our sisters had a very different background and how many of them were the daughters of immigrants and how they grew up in Catholic ghettos, which fostered a combative posture and that they were really very holy women who were taught to be on guard from early childhood.

She was fascinated and wanted to know why the American priests and brothers were different. I had to think about it for a minute. I finally figured it had to do with education. Diocesan priests and religious brothers were allowed to get higher education. They were exposed to many people from different countries, different religious communities and dioceses, even different faiths. They had outgrown the ghetto. That was the only explanation that I could offer.

The long and the short of it is that in our dialogue, be it about the form of the mass or planning a ministry, we must be sensitive to people’s background and understand that they are not always being mean and nasty. They are usually being skittish. People come to the table with a history. With patience and charity, we can get past the apprehensions and talk to each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[khawk2]

Khawk is offering an important insight into the conflicts between American Catholics. I would add here a few historical facts and some personal experiences that the average layman does not know.

American sisters were not well educated. Most of them never went beyond high school. Theology was not allowed in convents of sisters. The only women religious who could study theology were nuns; but nuns have little or no contact with the laity. Theology was part of their on-going formation. While teaching sisters, had basic catechism. They couldn’t explain it any better than their students could explain it.

Many of these women came from Ireland, Germany and France. In Germany and France, Catholics were under fire from secularist sources. The Irish poor who immigrated to the USA were not welcome. Later, the Italians came and they too were unwelcome. Sisters came from Italy to serve them. What we had was a ghetto mentality. “Us” vs “Them”.

We also have to remember that the early Protestants and Jews who came to the USA were also running away from discrimination. Put all of these folks together and what do you get? You get a nation of people who are antagonistic toward each other, who cooperate in order to survive as a nation, but that’s as far as they’re willing to go.

American sisters were very attached to the martyrs, because they could identify with these men and women who were persecuted for their faith and their culture. Unfortunately, they were not well educated in ascetical theology, did not understand the theology of martyrdom, the history of the martyrs and they received very little guidance from the clergy and male religious who were the educated Catholics. It’s no surprise that these sisters developed a hard shell and presented martyrdom in a militant light. They did not understand the whole concept of Church Militant beyond what they read in the catechism, whereas their male counterparts were well versed in these matters.

Very early in my religious life, I was sent to the missions in the Amazon. We worked along with sisters from Spain and South America. I was very touched by their gentleness. They were very informal, friendly, nurturing, and motherly. The American missionary sisters who arrived ended up in Liberation Theology and all kinds of trouble. I believe it happened, because they could not shed the combative spirit that had been drilled into them in American Catholic schools. Meanwhile, their South American and Spanish counterparts worked for the poor without getting involved in some socio-political campaign.

I was very stunned when I arrived in Italy to go to school for theology. By that time, American sisters were starting to go for graduate degrees, including theology degrees. They were studying in European universities alongside us guys. They usually lived with local sisters. One day a sister from Nigeria approached me. She seemed very uncomfortable. I encouraged her to speak her mind. She was also a Franciscan. She whispered, “Sometimes I feel that the sisters from the United States look down on the rest of us. They have an air of authority.” I looked at her and said, “You mean they’re arrogant.” The sister was very embarrassed. I thought it was funny. I had to explain to her that our sisters had a very different background and how many of them were the daughters of immigrants and how they grew up in Catholic ghettos, which fostered a combative posture and that they were really very holy women who were taught to be on guard from early childhood.

She was fascinated and wanted to know why the American priests and brothers were different. I had to think about it for a minute. I finally figured it had to do with education. Diocesan priests and religious brothers were allowed to get higher education. They were exposed to many people from different countries, different religious communities and dioceses, even different faiths. They had outgrown the ghetto. That was the only explanation that I could offer.

The long and the short of it is that in our dialogue, be it about the form of the mass or planning a ministry, we must be sensitive to people’s background and understand that they are not always being mean and nasty. They are usually being skittish. People come to the table with a history. With patience and charity, we can get past the apprehensions and talk to each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

These nuns were Americans by birth but perhaps they were daughters of immigrants. They all had college degrees. They were Dominicans. They were militant in the way that they taught. The church was much more militant in the 1950s than it is today so, at least to me as a child this was the norm. There were exceptions but the exceptions tended to be the older nuns. The younger nuns ruled with an iron fist. And steel rulers.

 

[JReducation]

These nuns were Americans by birth but perhaps they were daughters of immigrants. They all had college degrees. They were Dominicans. They were militant in the way that they taught. The church was much more militant in the 1950s than it is today so, at least to me as a child this was the norm. There were exceptions but the exceptions tended to be the older nuns. The younger nuns ruled with an iron fist. And steel rulers.

If your sisters had collee degree, then you belong to the younger generation. That did not begin until the 1950s

You’re right, they were probably daughters of immigrants.

The Church was more millitant in some countries, not across the board.

That being said, if you ask a Dominican Friar what he thought about Dominican Sisters ruling with iron fists and steel rulers, they would quickly tell you that it was contrary to the Dominican tradition. This was a cultural problem, not part of the religious tradition. As I said, if you went to South America, Spain and other countries, the same Dominican Sisters would have been very gentle and non violent.

I know that the Irish and German religious had a reputation for coporal punishment. As we know, in Ireland, it got out of hand and no one did anything about it until now. I don’t know how bad coporal punishment went in Germany. It was practially non-existent in the Romance cultures.

I believe that’s why most religious orders today stay away from the word “militant”. The term took on a whole new meaning that is more about confrontation and rigidity that about working on one’s salvation. I hate to say this, but the sisters distorted the meaning and communicated it to their students who would later become Catholic adults. Some rebelled against it and others embraced it as if the only way to be Catholic was to be in a constant state of war with everyone else, including other Catholics.

The real militant struggles with himself or herself to be quiet, to listen, to submit and obey especially when it’s hard to do, in doing so, one avoids the other problems that follow. At the same time, as St. Francis said, if the person in authority is in error and you obey (everything but sin), it is not you who are in error, because it is always pleasing to God and man that you obey. To be militant is to do battle with the self to sublimate one’s desires and one’s opinions, so as to be so poor that one owns nothing, not even one’s will. In the end, you’re left with one option, to do the Will of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[khawk2]

If your sisters had collee degree, then you belong to the younger generation. That did not begin until the 1950s

You’re right, they were probably daughters of immigrants.

The Church was more millitant in some countries, not across the board.

That being said, if you ask a Dominican Friar what he thought about Dominican Sisters ruling with iron fists and steel rulers, they would quickly tell you that it was contrary to the Dominican tradition. This was a cultural problem, not part of the religious tradition. As I said, if you went to South America, Spain and other countries, the same Dominican Sisters would have been very gentle and non violent.

I know that the Irish and German religious had a reputation for coporal punishment. As we know, in Ireland, it got out of hand and no one did anything about it until now. I don’t know how bad coporal punishment went in Germany. It was practially non-existent in the Romance cultures.

I believe that’s why most religious orders today stay away from the word “militant”. The term took on a whole new meaning that is more about confrontation and rigidity that about working on one’s salvation. I hate to say this, but the sisters distorted the meaning and communicated it to their students who would later become Catholic adults. Some rebelled against it and others embraced it as if the only way to be Catholic was to be in a constant state of war with everyone else, including other Catholics.

The real militant struggles with himself or herself to be quiet, to listen, to submit and obey especially when it’s hard to do, in doing so, one avoids the other problems that follow. At the same time, as St. Francis said, if the person in authority is in error and you obey (everything but sin), it is not you who are in error, because it is always pleasing to God and man that you obey. To be militant is to do battle with the self to sublimate one’s desires and one’s opinions, so as to be so poor that one owns nothing, not even one’s will. In the end, you’re left with one option, to do the Will of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I was born in 1950 and attended Catholic School in the mid fifties. These nuns were very structured but the Catholic Church was very structured.
They taught us well and I do not feel the need to defend them. I know that it is because of what they taught me that I actually have a chance to save my soul. They taught me how to stay in the state of grace. Regardless of how they taught it; militant or not; it worked on me. And I pray for them and thank God for them.

I struggle with the militant part but ask for help and guidance and the Holy Spirit helps with it. I take full responsibility and know that regardless of where it came from it is not in the Spirit of Christ to be militant.

We are all human. Those nuns were human as well and were actually very good role models. I looked up to all of them and loved all of them. I only feared Sister Helen Francis (RIP).
These women taught me how to have not only a deep love for God they taught me about the Blessed Mother. You cannot give a little girl a greater gift.

 

[JReducation]

I was born in 1950 and attended Catholic School in the mid fifties. These nuns were very structured but the Catholic Church was very structured.
They taught us well and I do not feel the need to defend them. I know that it is because of what they taught me that I actually have a chance to save my soul. They taught me how to stay in the state of grace. Regardless of how they taught it; militant or not; it worked on me. And I pray for them and thank God for them.

I struggle with the militant part but ask for help and guidance and the Holy Spirit helps with it. I take full responsibility and know that regardless of where it came from it is not in the Spirit of Christ to be militant.

We are all human. Those nuns were human as well and were actually very good role models. I looked up to all of them and loved all of them. I only feared Sister Helen Francis (RIP).
These women taught me how to have not only a deep love for God they taught me about the Blessed Mother. You cannot give a little girl a greater gift.

No one denies the wonderful work that the sisters did. I was only referring to the distortion of militant. Beyond that, they offered very good academic and religious education. And you are young. You came under the Vatican II sisters. We call them that, because it was the sisters and male religious of the 1950s who were old enough to emplement Vatican II. That was probably the first generation of American teaching sisters to get degrees. Prior to that the only sisters to have degrees were those in healthcare. They had nursing degrees and some were physicians, mostly Medical Mission Sisters and Maryknoll Sisters.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[khawk2]

I guess that they felt the instillment of a strong faith was mandatory in a world that had killed and persecuted so many Catholics. We were referred to as “soldiers of Christ”. Calling a six year old a “soldier of Christ” instills a very deep sense of belonging to the Catholic Army… so I absolutely understand all about the Catholic Militant. We were taught that we were different than everyone else and that the Catholic Religion founded by Christ was the only way to save your soul. I felt bad for those who were not Catholic.

When Vatican II papers were published the documents confused many Catholics. If others were schooled in the manner that I was schooled it is no wonder.

 

[JReducation]

I guess that they felt the instillment of a strong faith was mandatory in a world that had killed and persecuted so many Catholics. We were referred to as “soldiers of Christ”. Calling a six year old a “soldier of Christ” instills a very deep sense of belonging to the Catholic Army… so I absolutely understand all about the Catholic Militant. We were taught that we were different than everyone else and that the Catholic Religion founded by Christ was the only way to save your soul. I felt bad for those who were not Catholic.

When Vatican II papers were published the documents confused many Catholics. If others were schooled in the manner that I was schooled it is no wonder.

I don’t think anyone expects a school sister to be as well versed in Catholic Theology as John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Mitch Pacwa, Benedict G., Jordan Aumann, Scott Hahn and others who have helped clarify what these words meant when they were spoken and written or where the language came from.

I remember during my novitiate that we read the ancient Franciscan writings and they used a lot of the language of the knights and the troubadours. Francis even refers to his brothers as fools for Christ. But the word fool in 13th century Provencal French had a very different meaning than it does in American English. We don’t teach our novices to be fools for Christ. He also refers to the poorest of the poor as The Christian Brothers. Today, we can’t use that language, because the Christian Brothers are two congregations of religious men: The Christian Brothers and The Brothers of Christian Schools.

We had the benefit of an entire formation team that had STLs and STDs. They could take those writings and restate them in contemporary language that has the same meaning. This has always been the privilege of male religious. Sisters did not have this privilege until after Vatican II. I think that they taught more by their charity than anything did. Even when they were tough, most of them were very charitable women. If one paid close attention to their life, one learned a great deal.

I have to say, I never found the documents of Vatican II confusing. I found them very beautiful. They had a lot of meat on them. They have to be read with the references and commentaries handy and very slowly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF