Caffeine question

[Casen]

Tmaque:

Actually, that’s incorrect. In Korea(where I served my mission) we specifically taught (by request of Church leadership, because I challenged it at first) that Coca Cola(and other like caffeineated beverages) was forbidden along with the other items you mentioned. At the time it troubled me that God had a different standard for Koreans than for Americans. I later came to realize that the reasoning for this was Koreans would accept a total ban on caffeine and Americans wouldn’t.

If that really happened it was the mistake of local leadership and I don’t think your conclusion about Americans not accepting something Korea would is correct. On my mission I once heard a member of the Stake Presidency tell the members that chewing gum was against the Word of Wisdom. He simply was wrong. Leaders sometimes make mistakes. If you read the New Testament you see the Apostles were constantly trying to keep local leadership from changing the doctrine. Even today these little “doctrinal herasies” naturally pop up in a worldwide church and centralized leadership squashes them as necessary.

Regarding the health benefits of green tea, I won’t disagree with you. At its core the Word of Wisdom is a spiritual law and I personally believe it has a purpose in separating the members of the church from the world much like the Israelite dietary restrictions did in the Old Testament. One could make an argument that eating shrimp or pork is not so bad but the restrictions had symbolic spiritual significance and also separated “God’s People” from the world and I think the Word of Wisdom as give by God in His wisdom (our belief) functions the same way for LDS. This is just my own theory however.

Regarding your question about eating meat sparingly and only in times of famine and why that is no longer emphasized I can’t answer. I’ve wondered the same thing myself. We recently covered the topic in a Gospel Doctrine class and I asked that very question and didn’t get a satisfactory answer.

 

[UtahMaggie]

Tmaque:

There are no dry counties and yes, the liquor stores are state owned. There is plenty of alcohol consumed in Utah. In fact, most of the revenue from the non-LDS liquor sales goes to the public school system. So, if Utah ever went dry there would be an educational funding crisis.

Come on, Todd. There already is an educational funding crisis.

Maggie

 

[Casen]

UtahMaggie:

Come on, Todd. There already is an educational funding crisis.

While it’s true that Utah spends less money on each child’s education than any other state in the nation and average class size is larger than any other state’s, it’s also true that in terms of spending as a percentage of all state and local government spending, it’s ranked 3rd in the nation, while in terms of spending as a percentage of personal income, it’s ranked about 2nd. This apparent paradox is simply a reflection of Utah’s unique demographics with the highest birthrate in the nation, 50% higher than the nation as a whole (but dropping). And in spite of the low per-child spending Utah high school seniors rank 3rd in the nation in earning college credits through AP exams and 4th in the nation for the percentage of persons who completed high school, and second in the nation for higher education spending. Of course… if we killed our awful teachers union we could do a lot better.

 

[Jerusha]

And the status of the state of Utah in terms of compliance with NCLB is-- what???

Utah high school seniors rank 3rd in the nation in earning college credits through AP exams and 4th in the nation for the percentage of persons who completed high school, and second in the nation for higher education spending

And the high school dropout rate among minority group (including non-Mormon) students is?? Or is that data even available given the level of compliance with NCLB??

 

[Tmaque]

Casen:

If that really happened it was the mistake of local leadership and I don’t think your conclusion about Americans not accepting something Korea would is correct. On my mission I once heard a member of the Stake Presidency tell the members that chewing gum was against the Word of Wisdom. He simply was wrong. Leaders sometimes make mistakes.

The teaching on Coca Cola was part of our printed discussion teaching material. It wasn’t the opinion of a local branch president or our mission president. I questioned my zone leader about it and he told me he had asked the mission president himself and was told the discussion material had been approved by the General Authorities of the Church. The materials were printed in the U.S. at the LDS Salt Lake City printing and distribution center. So, this was a Korean WoW teaching, from Church leadership, at odds with WoW teachings elsewhere in the world.

 

[Tmaque]

Casen:

While it’s true that Utah spends less money on each child’s education than any other state in the nation and average class size is larger than any other state’s, it’s also true that in terms of spending as a percentage of all state and local government spending, it’s ranked 3rd in the nation, while in terms of spending as a percentage of personal income, it’s ranked about 2nd. This apparent paradox is simply a reflection of Utah’s unique demographics with the highest birthrate in the nation, 50% higher than the nation as a whole (but dropping). And in spite of the low per-child spending Utah high school seniors rank 3rd in the nation in earning college credits through AP exams and 4th in the nation for the percentage of persons who completed high school, and second in the nation for higher education spending. Of course… if we killed our awful teachers union we could do a lot better.

Casen,

I agree wholeheartedly. I’d also add tuition tax credits to your suggestion.

 

[Casen]

Tmaque:

I agree wholeheartedly. I’d also add tuition tax credits to your suggestion.

Very true.

Regarding your Korea Coke story I have no explanation for it. Perhaps Korea is living the “higher law”… You already knew the Utah Saints weren’t the best Saints anyway, right?

 

[Diaconia]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

To All:

I’m a Catholic deacon that grew up in Utah. What is passed off as “fact” on this threat, and many others in the LDS sub-forum is usually not fact, but only opinion or conjecture.

Just as there are Catholics that are orthodox, heterodox, liberal & conservative, so it is with the LDS church.

Here are the FACTS regarding caffeine:

the Word of Wisdom prohibits “hot drinks.” Just as Talmudic rabbis argue over the meaning of a phrase in the Law, so too, exists various opinions regarding what “hot drinks” mean.

The most likely explanation, and most accepted, and most widely held is that “hot drinks” are coffee & tea.

Jack Mormons use caffeine & tobacco without giving it a second thought.

Every Temple-recommend holding Mormon that I know would not drink any beverage containing caffeine for any reason. Period. That’s why all the fast food restaraunts in Utah always have orange soda, root beer, and 7-up or sprite available – all three of them.

And by the way, Harry Reid is a very poor example of a Mormon. He has voted before for positions that are pro-choice. He previously held a position in Nevada as a Gaming Control Commissioner. If you want to see an orthodox, temple-going Mormon in politics, take a look at Orrin Hatch.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Chris

 

[Casen]

Diaconia:

The Word of Wisdom prohibits “hot drinks.” Just as Talmudic rabbis argue over the meaning of a phrase in the Law, so too, exists various opinions regarding what “hot drinks” mean.

The most likely explanation, and most accepted, and most widely held is that “hot drinks” are coffee & tea.

Jack Mormons use caffeine & tobacco without giving it a second thought.

Every Temple-recommend holding Mormon that I know would not drink any beverage containing caffeine for any reason. Period. That’s why all the fast food restaraunts in Utah always have orange soda, root beer, and 7-up or sprite available – all three of them.

And by the way, Harry Reid is a very poor example of a Mormon. He has voted before for positions that are pro-choice. He previously held a position in Nevada as a Gaming Control Commissioner. If you want to see an orthodox, temple-going Mormon in politics, take a look at Orrin Hatch.

Diaconia,
You’re close. First, the difference between Rabbi’s interpreting the Talmud and our interpretation of the Word of Wisdom is that Joseph Smith, who received the revelation, interpreted it for us, so we don’t need to ask scholars to guess what it means. Also our prophets since have consistently interpreted “hot drinks” to mean coffee and tea and not specifically caffeine. Drinking Coke will not prohibit you from getting a temple recommend. As an LDS missionary in South America every missionary I knew or ever had as a companion drank Coke since it was generally considered the safest thing to drink. I developed quite a tate for it myself. I can’t imagine anyone being called a “Jack Mormon” because they drink caffeinated soda so I don’t know what ultra-orthodox Mormons you hang with.

Regarding Harry Reid, I’m not sure what you mean when you call him a “very poor example of a Mormon”. He’s a former bishop and I’m told currently teaches Gospel Doctrine in his ward in D.C. so he sounds pretty active to me. But perhaps you’re referring specifically to his politics, in which case I would tend to agree with you.

 

[majick275]

If Joseph Smith was the one who defined “hot drinks” as coffee and tea (temperature not important) then why did Brigham Young tell the pioneers specifically to pack these things in their handcarts/wagons for the trek west?

 

[Casen]

majick275:

If Joseph Smith was the one who defined “hot drinks” as coffee and tea (temperature not important) then why did Brigham Young tell the pioneers specifically to pack these things in their handcarts/wagons for the trek west?

You are correct that the saints brought coffee when they crossed the plains. The Word of Wisdom wasn’t considered a commandment when it was given, “not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom”. There were also spittoons in the SL temple for some time. The WoW wasn’t made a requirement for temple attendance until much later.

 

[majick275]

Yes, I realize that it was “not given by way of commandment” initially.

My confusion though stems from Joseph apparently saying something to the effect of “don’t use coffe or tea and God will bless you” and then some time later the new “prophet” who is instructing the members on behalf of the Lord stating basically “make sure you have coffee and tea to cross the plains”

Either Brigham Young was (name removed by moderator)ired to provide specific instructions for the good of these people OR he was “leading them astray” by instructing them to do something that would deny them these blessings that Joseph Smith so clearly outlined.

I realize that this might seem a small difference, but I see it as the difference between “allowing” people to do something that the Lord counsels against and Deliberately “encouraging” people to act contrary to the Lords will as expressed in scripture.

does this explain my confusion?

 

[rmw82]

Diaconia:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

And by the way, Harry Reid is a very poor example of a Mormon. He has voted before for positions that are pro-choice. He previously held a position in Nevada as a Gaming Control Commissioner. If you want to see an orthodox, temple-going Mormon in politics, take a look at Orrin Hatch.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Chris

I’m sorry, Diaconia, but Orrin Hatch is a horrible example of an orthodox Mormon. That is, of course, if the LDS Church is still considered pro-life. Both Bob Bennet and Orrin Hatch support federal funding of embryotic stem cell research.

All of you probably know that this research results in the destruction of these embryos (human life) and can’t be tolerated. I live in Salt Lake City and am disgusted by our two Senators. Orrin Hatch even had the courage to say he “prayed about” this topic and felt the Holy Spirit was giving him the green light to support this destruction of life.

It is unfortunate that the LDS church is so quiet on this topic. This is probably the reason why the majority of the State supports the idea of embryotic stem cell research (according to a recent SLTrib poll).

I’m not LDS, but I encourage all LDS members of this board to write your Church leaders asking them for clarification on this issue. The reason is that Orrin Hatch has a lot of power in the Senate and can get this thing to pass with such a majority that Pres. Bush won’t be able to veto it.

Our society is doomed if we continue to murder our own childred.

Okay. I’ll stop preaching. It is just such an important issue and we have very public LDS members leading the charge to get this passed.

My original point was that Orrin Hatch is not a good example of a orthodox, temple-going Mormon in politics. Maybe Chris Cannon? See his position:
house.gov/cannon/Press_2005/may24.htm

-rmw82

 

[Diaconia]

No Mormon in politics hs going to have the sort of pro-life view that the Catholic Church holds to.

But a previous poster mentioned Harry Reid, Minority Leader as a Mormon.

My point was, concerning his activity as a Senator, he is a MUCH MORE EXAMPLE of the LDS Church and their view than Orrin Hatch is.

Frankly, I don’t have any idea how a Mormon could be a democrat anyway. One of the central planks of the Democratic Platform is abortion on demand for any reason at any time.

I have many Mormon friends, and I like lots of things about the LDS church. In GENERAL, they have a more consistent view of the sanctity of life than most other Christians (Catholics & Orthodox not included).

And I stand by my previous note - ALL the Mormons I know (most of them holding Temple recommends) do not drink caffeine of any sort. And it’s not because they have special diets, it’s because of the Word of Wisdom.

Utah Mormons do tend to be more orthodox than others, but if I were LDS, I would want to strive toward the most authentic teaching of the church.

Here’s another way of looking at it: Would the President of the church drink Coke? How about the First Presidency? The Apostles? Seventies?

Just because you know elders that drink Coke does not make it right. Lots of my friends went on missions that probably shouldn’t have. And a couple of them did things while on their missions that they CERTIANLY SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE. Examples of members that act in a given way is not a reflection of the authentic teaching - just of their individual behavior. For example, lots of Jews don’t keep kosher,* but that doesn’t mean it isn’t the official teaching of their faith*.

Of any religious group I can imagine, I would think Mormons (collectively) would want to strive for the fullest, most correct, and most complete undertaking of any of their doctrines, teachings and beliefs. It’s a core value for the Mormons I know.

Obviously, my remarks are in no way an endorsement of the LDS church, or anything like that. But if Catholics are interested in what Mormons believe, they should ask orthodox Mormons.

God bless you all,