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twinc
Guest
Did Cain go to hell and Abel to heaven - any comments - twinc
- Status
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LilyM
Guest
We don’t have the faintest hope of having enough information to form an educated opinion, and won’t know this side of Judgement Day. It’s fruitless to speculate on the salvation of individuals, and not our place to do so either.
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
J
Jesus_123
Guest
+There are several portions of Sacred :bible1: Scripture that speak of the goodness and holy faithful obedience of Abel’s immortal soul . . . and speak of him as a man whom God highly esteems . . . he is actually included in the great "Faith Hall of Fame" our** Wonderful God **inspired to be written for our encouragement in the Faith . . . even unto our day and age . . . *centuries later *. . . in the **New Testament **book of Hebrews - Chapter 11 . . .
On the other side of the coin . . . there are . . . devastating insights . . . in the portions of **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **in the **New Testament **regarding Cain’s immortal soul . . . which contain an inkling of understanding as to his possible dreadful end . . .
Heaven and hell are specific real places as revealed in** Sacred Scripture** . . . God alone is our judge . . . He alone has the power to understand fully the heart of a soul and whether that soul has any real desire to love God and be holy. . . or prefers and desires evil and to be always separate from God . . . and He has included . . . for the good and guidance of our souls . . . wonderful insights . . . and grave warnings . . . in all the portions of **Sacred Scripture **He has made available . . . regarding Cain and Abel . . . for His good purpose . . . and for the continuing salvation of the fallen sinful souls of mankind . . . .
:bible1:
**Thy word is a lamp to my feet,
and a light to my paths. **
- Psalm 118[119]:105
*Peace . . . *
:bible1: Genesis 4:4
Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings.
:bible1: Matthew 23:35
That upon you may come all the **just blood **that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
:bible1: Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that** he was just**, God giving testimony to his gifts; and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings.
:bible1: Matthew 23:35
That upon you may come all the **just blood **that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
:bible1: Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that** he was just**, God giving testimony to his gifts; and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
On the other side of the coin . . . there are . . . devastating insights . . . in the portions of **Sacred :bible1: Scripture **in the **New Testament **regarding Cain’s immortal soul . . . which contain an inkling of understanding as to his possible dreadful end . . .
:bible1: 1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of the wicked one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked: and his brother’s just.
:bible1: Jude 1:11
Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core.
Not as Cain, who was of the wicked one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked: and his brother’s just.
:bible1: Jude 1:11
Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core.
Heaven and hell are specific real places as revealed in** Sacred Scripture** . . . God alone is our judge . . . He alone has the power to understand fully the heart of a soul and whether that soul has any real desire to love God and be holy. . . or prefers and desires evil and to be always separate from God . . . and He has included . . . for the good and guidance of our souls . . . wonderful insights . . . and grave warnings . . . in all the portions of **Sacred Scripture **He has made available . . . regarding Cain and Abel . . . for His good purpose . . . and for the continuing salvation of the fallen sinful souls of mankind . . . .
:bible1:
**Thy word is a lamp to my feet,
and a light to my paths. **
- Psalm 118[119]:105
*Peace . . . *
. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Wonderful Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . Holy Counselor+
. . . thank You Wonderful Spirit of our Holy God+
. . . Holy Counselor+
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Apollos
Guest
Cain went to hell and Abel to heaven, because in marking Cain God guaranteed that vengeance would be reserved to himself, and this would have been unnecessary unless he were planning to send him to hell, and because Abel’s blood cried out to heaven from the earth, Abel could not have gone all the way to hell, and so must have gone to heaven.
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twinc
Guest
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Apollos
Guest
Up and down are metaphorical.
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Shin
Guest
‘But first we must struggle with the demon of dejection who casts the soul into despair. We must drive him from our heart. It was this demon that did not allow Cain to repent after he had killed his brother, or Judas after he had betrayed his Master.’
St. John Cassian
'Suppose that, in the case of unhappy Cain, weeping in hell, he shed in every thousand years just one tear. Now, O my soul, recollect your thoughts and suppose this case: For six thousand years at least Cain has been in hell and shed only six tears, which God miraculously preserves. How many years would pass for his tears to fill all the valleys of the earth and flood all the cities and towns and villages and cover all the mountains so as to flood the whole earth? We understand the distance from the earth to the sun is thirty-four million leagues. How many years would be necessary for Cain’s tears to fill that immense space? From the earth to the firmament is, let us suppose, a distance of a hundred and sixty million leagues.
O God! What number of years might one imagine to be sufficient to fill with these tears this immense space? And yet - O truth so incomprehensible - be sure of it as that God cannot lie - a time will arrive in which these tears of Cain would be sufficient to flood the world, to reach even the sun, to touch the firmament, and fill all the space between earth and the highest heaven. But that is not all.
If God dried up all those tears to the last drop and Cain began again to weep, he would again fill the same entire space with them and fill it a thousand times and a million times in succession, and after all those countless years, not even half of eternity would have passed, not even a fraction. After all that time burning in hell. Cain’s sufferings will be just beginning.’
St. Anthony Mary Claret
‘No, indeed; if sinners were to think of eternity – of that terrible FOR EVER! – They would be converted instantly. Cain has been in Hell nearly six thousand years, and he is only just entering it.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
St. John Cassian
'Suppose that, in the case of unhappy Cain, weeping in hell, he shed in every thousand years just one tear. Now, O my soul, recollect your thoughts and suppose this case: For six thousand years at least Cain has been in hell and shed only six tears, which God miraculously preserves. How many years would pass for his tears to fill all the valleys of the earth and flood all the cities and towns and villages and cover all the mountains so as to flood the whole earth? We understand the distance from the earth to the sun is thirty-four million leagues. How many years would be necessary for Cain’s tears to fill that immense space? From the earth to the firmament is, let us suppose, a distance of a hundred and sixty million leagues.
O God! What number of years might one imagine to be sufficient to fill with these tears this immense space? And yet - O truth so incomprehensible - be sure of it as that God cannot lie - a time will arrive in which these tears of Cain would be sufficient to flood the world, to reach even the sun, to touch the firmament, and fill all the space between earth and the highest heaven. But that is not all.
If God dried up all those tears to the last drop and Cain began again to weep, he would again fill the same entire space with them and fill it a thousand times and a million times in succession, and after all those countless years, not even half of eternity would have passed, not even a fraction. After all that time burning in hell. Cain’s sufferings will be just beginning.’
St. Anthony Mary Claret
‘No, indeed; if sinners were to think of eternity – of that terrible FOR EVER! – They would be converted instantly. Cain has been in Hell nearly six thousand years, and he is only just entering it.’
St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
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GEddie
Guest
[/quote]
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sonettegarbin
Guest
For a very long time I overlooked that portion of scripture that said that Judas repented and only saw his failure and death.
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Shin
Guest
This is a good example of how both hanging yourself is a mortal sin and done of despair – the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So the repentance Judas had was ineffective and most likely of an ineffective kind – perhaps it was a self centered regret, or only attrition, the signs appear all against it being anything more. Unable to ask for forgiveness… despite regretting it… that was that.
So the repentance Judas had was ineffective and most likely of an ineffective kind – perhaps it was a self centered regret, or only attrition, the signs appear all against it being anything more. Unable to ask for forgiveness… despite regretting it… that was that.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Who knows, perhaps we’ll find out when we go to heaven. Of course, we’ll have to ask around for quite some while to find him (given that he lived an indefinitely long time ago), and then we’ll have to find some way to talk to him, as we have no way of knowing what language he spoke.
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Victorious
Guest
The Church has a canon of saints, but she does not have a canon of the damned. She has never definitively held that any particular person is in hell. We don’t even know for certain that Judas Iscariot is in hell – though the outlook for him seems pretty poor, given that Jesus said it would have been better for him if he had never been born. The saints have their opinions on this subject, but these are opinions and not articles of faith, however well-founded they are; and I think it’s a safe bet that any saint who was of the opinion that Cain is in hell would be very pleased to have been proven wrong.
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Apollos
Guest
They spoke Hebrew. At the tower of Babel, the line of Shem was spared the curse out of respect for the Messiah to be born of it.
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Shin
Guest
It’s normally a misguided and misleading statement to say ‘never definitively held’ a ‘particular person’ is in Hell, this is not the case once one reads Revelation on the particular people condemned to Hell there. It is also not the case that to draw from this misguided statement that one can believe no one is in Hell because there isn’t a long list of people by name condemned there.
‘Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!’
Matthew 7:13-14
‘And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand; He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name.’
Apocalypse 14:9-11
‘And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image. These two were cast alive into the pool of fire, burning with brimstone.’
Apoacalypse 19:20
It is the long belief of Catholics that Judas is in Hell, and that many are in Hell.
The scriptures say Christ himself says, ‘It would be better for him that he had not been born.’ Since this statement **cannot **be said of anyone who goes to Heaven, it can be viewed as a definitive statement that Judas is in Hell, and that to contradict this is to contradict scripture.
Something doesn’t have to be declared definitively and directly in a bull to be something that faithful Catholics should definitely believe. In other words, no bull saying definitively X is in Hell doesn’t mean that the declarations on the inerrancy of scripture don’t hold to those passages detailing the people in Hell.
While it would be pleasing to know Cain was not in Hell, if the saints don’t believe it, I am not going to side with the goats instead of the sheep on the matter.
C
CWBetts
Guest
It is not our place to speculate on the damnation, let alone decree the damnation of specific individuals. Or can you peer into the souls of one who died millenia ago?
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Apollos
Guest
Without speculation, we would not have John of the Cross or Thomas Aquinas. Since the Church has not ruled definitively on the fate of Cain or Abel, let’s discuss it. We learn more in the process of discussion than we do by reaching an answer. My conclusion is obviously not based on peering into anyone’s soul, but on all the available information we have about their lives.
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CWBetts
Guest
The Church has two positions about the state of a soul:
*]the person is in heaven (Canonization)
*]their fate is unknown
Notice that "the person is definitely in Hell is not a choice. We know nothing of the circumstances surrounding Cain’s death, so as such we cannot know his eternal fate.
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Shin
Guest
‘Let us not doubt that baptized babies who die in their infant years will enter into the heavenly Kingdom. We should not, however, believe that all those infants who have begun to speak will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. For the entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven will be closed to many babies because of their parents’ bad rearing. In this city, there lives a certain man who is known to all; three years ago, this man had a son who, if I recall, would then have been about five years old, for whom he had such human love that he did not even try to discipline him.
For this reason, the boy, when someone prevented him from getting his way, used to blaspheme the magnificence of God—and let me emphasize that this is something dangerous.
When, three years ago, a deadly plague fell upon the region where he lived, this young boy succumbed to it and was near death. As eyewitnesses recounted, while the father took the child into his arms, the boy himself saw evil spirits coming for him. The boy began to tremble, to blink his eyes in fear, and to cry out in despair to his father: “Father, save me, protect me.” Simultaneously, as he cried, he turned his face towards his father’s chest, as though wanting to be hidden.
When the father saw his son trembling, in agony he asked him what he had seen. The son answered: “Black creatures came to me and wanted to take me away with them.” No sooner had he finished this phrase, than he immediately blasphemed the name of the Divine Magnificence and, with this blasphemy, expired.
Thus, God, the All-Powerful, in order to show by what sin the boy was given over to these evil servants, allowed him to die with this sin which his father, while the boy was alive, did nothing to prevent. And this boy whom God allowed, by His mercy, to live as a blasphemer, by His righteous judgment was also permitted to blaspheme at his death, so that his careless father might know well his sin. For this father, being indifferent to the soul of his young son, reared for the Gehenna of fire not an insignificant sinner, but a great sinner.’
Pope St. Gregory the Great
Why is it that Peter the Apostle rose again after his fall and persevered till his death, while Judas Iscariot, his fellow-Apostle, hanged himself and thus frustrated his salvation? Though correct, the answer that Judas went to perdition of his own free will, while Peter faithfully co-operated with the grace of conversion offered him, does not clear up the enigma. For the question recurs: Why did not God give to Judas the same efficacious, infallibly successful grace of conversion as to St. Peter, whose blasphemous denial of the Lord was a sin no less grievous than that of the traitor Judas? To all these and similar questions the only reasonable reply is the word of St. Augustine (loc. cit., 21): “Inscrutabilia sunt judicia Dei” (the judgments of God are inscrutable).
St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church
“Set thou an ungodly man to be ruler over him; and let Satan stand at his right hand” Psalm 108:5. Though the complaint had been before concerning many, the Psalm is now speaking of one. . . Since therefore he is here speaking of the traitor Judas, who, according to the Scripture in the Acts of the Apostles, was to be punished with the penalty due to him, Acts 1:20 what means, “set thou an ungodly man over him,” save him whom in the next verse he mentions by name, when he says, “and let Satan stand at his right hand”? He therefore who refused to be subject unto Christ, deserved this, that he should have the devil set over him, that is, that he should be subject unto the devil…For this reason also it is said of those who, preferring the pleasures of this world to God, styled the people blessed who have such and such things, “their right hand is a right hand of iniquity.” . . . “When sentence is given upon him, let him be condemned, and let his prayer be turned into sin” Psalm 108:6.
St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
Cry of a Lost Soul
Hope this adds some context.
For this reason, the boy, when someone prevented him from getting his way, used to blaspheme the magnificence of God—and let me emphasize that this is something dangerous.
When, three years ago, a deadly plague fell upon the region where he lived, this young boy succumbed to it and was near death. As eyewitnesses recounted, while the father took the child into his arms, the boy himself saw evil spirits coming for him. The boy began to tremble, to blink his eyes in fear, and to cry out in despair to his father: “Father, save me, protect me.” Simultaneously, as he cried, he turned his face towards his father’s chest, as though wanting to be hidden.
When the father saw his son trembling, in agony he asked him what he had seen. The son answered: “Black creatures came to me and wanted to take me away with them.” No sooner had he finished this phrase, than he immediately blasphemed the name of the Divine Magnificence and, with this blasphemy, expired.
Thus, God, the All-Powerful, in order to show by what sin the boy was given over to these evil servants, allowed him to die with this sin which his father, while the boy was alive, did nothing to prevent. And this boy whom God allowed, by His mercy, to live as a blasphemer, by His righteous judgment was also permitted to blaspheme at his death, so that his careless father might know well his sin. For this father, being indifferent to the soul of his young son, reared for the Gehenna of fire not an insignificant sinner, but a great sinner.’
Pope St. Gregory the Great
Why is it that Peter the Apostle rose again after his fall and persevered till his death, while Judas Iscariot, his fellow-Apostle, hanged himself and thus frustrated his salvation? Though correct, the answer that Judas went to perdition of his own free will, while Peter faithfully co-operated with the grace of conversion offered him, does not clear up the enigma. For the question recurs: Why did not God give to Judas the same efficacious, infallibly successful grace of conversion as to St. Peter, whose blasphemous denial of the Lord was a sin no less grievous than that of the traitor Judas? To all these and similar questions the only reasonable reply is the word of St. Augustine (loc. cit., 21): “Inscrutabilia sunt judicia Dei” (the judgments of God are inscrutable).
St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church
“Set thou an ungodly man to be ruler over him; and let Satan stand at his right hand” Psalm 108:5. Though the complaint had been before concerning many, the Psalm is now speaking of one. . . Since therefore he is here speaking of the traitor Judas, who, according to the Scripture in the Acts of the Apostles, was to be punished with the penalty due to him, Acts 1:20 what means, “set thou an ungodly man over him,” save him whom in the next verse he mentions by name, when he says, “and let Satan stand at his right hand”? He therefore who refused to be subject unto Christ, deserved this, that he should have the devil set over him, that is, that he should be subject unto the devil…For this reason also it is said of those who, preferring the pleasures of this world to God, styled the people blessed who have such and such things, “their right hand is a right hand of iniquity.” . . . “When sentence is given upon him, let him be condemned, and let his prayer be turned into sin” Psalm 108:6.
St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
Cry of a Lost Soul
Hope this adds some context.
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Apollos
Guest
Okay, so your issue is with my level of certainty. And how does that further the conversation?
C
CWBetts
Guest
I am trying to get you to admit that we cannot declare Cain as damned to hell.
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