Cain vs. Abel: Agriculture vs. Hunter/Gatherer?

[Plato34]

I posted another thread in philosophy about a book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. In this thread I just wanted to see what people thought about Quinn’s use of the bible story Cain and Abel to show the clash between Agricultural western society (Takers) and the Hunter and Gatherers (Leavers). Quinn says that the story is a form of propaganda created by early Semites which describing the spread of agriculture by the Caucasians forcibly into Semite herding lands. Cain the farmer kills Abel the favored herder. The agriculturist killed the Semite herders to gain their land, and the Semites cast these herders as the martyred favored children of God.

Also, if you have read the book I would appreciate a discussion of Quinn’s description of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and Adam’s fall.

Oh and please check out the other thread in Philosophy if anyone is interested.

 

[jen_fla]

interesting post.

i read ishmael along with the story of b many years ago. i have a horrible memory, but do recall the main points along with (correct me if i’m wrong) a talking gorilla. did i make that up?

i’ll go find your post in philosophy and read with interest.

peace,
jen

 

[Benadam]

The author seems to have latched on to some truth about Cain and Abel’s offering to God and wrapped a world view around it. It’s ironic that the worldview is a developement of what he has called the ‘Takers’ if the story is given the deeper theological meaning developed by the traditions that guard it.

 

[juliamajor]

I posted another thread in philosophy about a book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. In this thread I just wanted to see what people thought about Quinn’s use of the bible story Cain and Abel to show the clash between Agricultural western society (Takers) and the Hunter and Gatherers (Leavers). Quinn says that the story is a form of propaganda created by early Semites which describing the spread of agriculture by the Caucasians forcibly into Semite herding lands. Cain the farmer kills Abel the favored herder. The agriculturist killed the Semite herders to gain their land, and the Semites cast these herders as the martyred favored children of God.

Also, if you have read the book I would appreciate a discussion of Quinn’s description of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and Adam’s fall.

Oh and please check out the other thread in Philosophy if anyone is interested.

In the world of Biblical scholarship that one has been around for awhile and now, virtually discarded.

 

[juliamajor]

It was also thought to be a parable of city folk(Cain) vs country folk(Abel)

 

[Plato34]

In the world of Biblical scholarship that one has been around for awhile and now, virtually discarded.

Ok I mean I was just wondering not trying to prove it or anything, but why was it discarded? What was it replaced by? I’m not an expert in theology, and this seemed like a pretty crazy stretch made by Quinn so I thought some people with more knowledge in theology and the stories of the bible might be able to shed some light on it.

 

[Plato34]

It was also thought to be a parable of city folk(Cain) vs country folk(Abel)

I suppose that’d be a pretty similar thing. Those living in settlements (which would require agriculture) and nomadic herders.

 

[Major_Tom]

It was also thought to be a parable of city folk(Cain) vs country folk(Abel)

I like the idea of reading the Old Testament stories as allegories/parables, not necessarily as literal. In this light, the Cain/Abel (hunter/farmer) angle makes a lot of sense. The shift from hunting and gathering to a more sedentary farming culture was a massive change for early communities to make. From gender roles, increase in leisure time (which led to technological improvements), etc., the societal change was significant.

 

[Benadam]

I like the idea of reading the Old Testament stories as allegories/parables, not necessarily as literal. In this light, the Cain/Abel (hunter/farmer) angle makes a lot of sense. The shift from hunting and gathering to a more sedentary farming culture was a massive change for early communities to make. From gender roles, increase in leisure time (which led to technological improvements), etc., the societal change was significant.

Cain’s first son was named Enoch. It’s interesting that he takes a wife, has a child, and …builds a town… and names it after his first sson…shouldn’t a tribe or something come first? Also the first metal workers and musicians are cain’s decendents. Cain is attempting to circumvent the curse God pronounced to Adam. By the sweat of our brow do we eat.

Now we have to survive, and now for us to eat something has to die.

Did Abel sacrifice the first born of his flock as a symbol of the first born of the human fold?

 

[Plato34]

Cain’s first son was named Enoch. It’s interesting that he takes a wife, has a child, and …builds a town… and names it after his first sson…shouldn’t a tribe or something come first? Also the first metal workers and musicians are cain’s decendents. Cain is attempting to circumvent the curse God pronounced to Adam. By the sweat of our brow do we eat.

Now we have to survive, and now for us to eat something has to die.

Did Abel sacrifice the first born of his flock as a symbol of the first born of the human fold?

That’s interesting. In Ishmael one of Quinn’s biggest criticisms of western thought is the concept that we have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, that there is some goal we must reach, and that we have the knowledge of right and wrong to decide that our fulfillment of this goal is more important than other life. The idea that we are special or above the laws and rules of the rest of life. That if we work hard we will all eat, and we can just keep growing. Quinn argues that we are not above the laws of life, especially the limitation on population and the limited supply of biomass. Quinn claims that we just push all other life out of the way and kill what we don’t need, and this behavior will eventually bring us down. In fact he quotes Jesus in the sermon on the mount, when he said to look at the birds and flowers, and that if God takes care of them surely he will take care of you. Quinn urges us to think more like that.

Should we as humans stop trying to make food for everyone using up all of creation in the process, and instead place our well being in the hands of God and mother nature. Those who die are meant to die. That seems evil, but in light of consequences, feeding the world hardly seems righteous? I guess this should be on another thread but I mean I don’t care if no one else does.

 

[Benadam]

That’s interesting. In Ishmael one of Quinn’s biggest criticisms of western thought is the concept that we have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, that there is some goal we must reach, and that we have the knowledge of right and wrong to decide that our fulfillment of this goal is more important than other life. The idea that we are special or above the laws and rules of the rest of life. That if we work hard we will all eat, and we can just keep growing. Quinn argues that we are not above the laws of life, especially the limitation on population and the limited supply of biomass. Quinn claims that we just push all other life out of the way and kill what we don’t need, and this behavior will eventually bring us down. In fact he quotes Jesus in the sermon on the mount, when he said to look at the birds and flowers, and that if God takes care of them surely he will take care of you. Quinn urges us to think more like that.

Should we as humans stop trying to make food for everyone using up all of creation in the process, and instead place our well being in the hands of God and mother nature. Those who die are meant to die. That seems evil, but in light of consequences, feeding the world hardly seems righteous? I guess this should be on another thread but I mean I don’t care if no one else does.

There is a single beat of heart that’s heard under the floor of our fallen minds. It’s the sublime rythme that human life kept step too before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. It’s the rythme that all life on earth still does except for man. Able’s offering was acceptable because his lifestyle was an attempt to live life in step with that beat. If perfect harmony couldn’t be re-established at least a lifestyle that bowed in respect to it would ensure that we never lost the sound of God’s heart that all creatioon operates in sync with. Able I believ e saw that his brother’s life didn’t respect that rythme and that human life disconnected to that rythm is a cultuire of death.
If we produce more young than natural it is because our sex drives are not operating according to the rythme that it was created in and makes it good always. The paradox here is that having lost the ability to hear the sound of that rythme the pedal is to the medal and the human sex drive is way ove4r the speed limit. So we create means to keep a lead foot on the gas pedal when the answer is to be able to speed up and slow down to the conditions of the road. Animals do this because they operate according to the rythme of nature.
Jesus was teaching us to re-establish our lives to the rythm of God’s heart that nature walks in step with. The rythm that produces life that walks with God. The prayer of the Rosary is a meditation in that rythm. That’s why it connects us so well with Mary’s heart. She lived in step with that rythme and was preserved from departing it by the love she has for her Son who’s heart beat established it’s cadence.
I like Quinn’s thinking but he doesn’t know the depth of the Genesis story for what it is. Although he does recognize ithe Church’s achoredeness he doesn’t know that it’s anchored to something he thinks he’s looking at. The truth of our genesis.